Energy refueling during training



lauro

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Jul 26, 2011
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Hello

Hope my topic fits in the "Power Training" Forum.

I've got a question which might be answered pretty easily. I'm new to training with a power meter and I've already bought the book "Training and racing with a powermeter" (I'm not trough yet) but I haven't found an answer so far.
One advantage of a PM is, that it shows you the work in kJ you produced during the training. This is pretty nice, however, I don't know how to use this information for training. Should I refuel all the energy during an exercise? I don't think so. But how much should I eat/drink in comparison to the wasted energy. Is there a rule, tip? Something like: try refueling half of the energy during cycling, half of it at home. I think it depends on the exercises you're doing, too (lets say Endurance 2 rides vs. Level 4 intervals). Right?
I Appreciate everything whether its a link or an answer.

thanks and greets
 
Personal preference.

I do 3 hour rides every day - a bit faster than endurance pace. I don't eat until I get home. Sometimes I wait until my chores are done. Level 4 rides are shorter than 3 hours. No need to eat, but it is nice to have a plan in case you work too hard to get back home.

I sometimes do 6 hour rides - endurance pace for the most part. I consider eating every hour.

When I was younger 5-6 hour group rides were scheduled to stop every 2 hours. Most riders ate all they could during the 5 minute stop for filling water bottles.

---

As long as you are losing more weight than you want there is no need to eat much if any.
 
Originally Posted by lauro .

Hello

Hope my topic fits in the "Power Training" Forum.

I've got a question which might be answered pretty easily. I'm new to training with a power meter and I've already bought the book "Training and racing with a powermeter" (I'm not trough yet) but I haven't found an answer so far.
One advantage of a PM is, that it shows you the work in kJ you produced during the training. This is pretty nice, however, I don't know how to use this information for training. Should I refuel all the energy during an exercise? I don't think so. But how much should I eat/drink in comparison to the wasted energy. Is there a rule, tip? Something like: try refueling half of the energy during cycling, half of it at home. I think it depends on the exercises you're doing, too (lets say Endurance 2 rides vs. Level 4 intervals). Right?
I Appreciate everything whether its a link or an answer.

thanks and greets
A lot tied up in your questions, but here's a few thoughts:

- Your PM reports kilojoules of energy burned by turning the cranks. That's not exactly the same as dietary calories burned but for all practical purposes it's close enough so most folks use kj as a direct equivalent to calories burned which is a good starting point.

- How much you refuel on the bike has more to do with the amount folks can tolerate before overloading their systems and running into cramping, bloating and other GI distress. For most riders riding fairly hard that means limiting yourself to something in the range of 250 to 300 Calories per hour while riding at the most and that should include solid foods and any energy drinks.

- For many folks riding hard means burning 500-1100 or more Calories per hour which translates to average power in the 140 to 300 watt range. So unless you're riding really easily you simply can't digest enough calories per hour to keep up with your burn rate so it's almost always a deficit spending game where you're relying heavily on stored fuels including stored glycogen and body fat stores and hopefully to a lesser extent stored muscle protein.

- Typical adult cyclists can store something on the order of 1220-1800 Calories worth of muscle glycogen and blood glucose in their muscles and their liver if they're fully topped up before a ride. That depends a lot on muscle mass as well as training history as one benefit of endurance training is higher muscle glycogen storage.

- Unless you're riding right up at your FTP or VO2 Max pace you're burning some percentage of stored fat as well as sugars in the form of glycogen, glucose, blood lactate, etc. So not all your caloric burn is supported by sugars and the lower the ride intensity relative to your FTP the higher the percentage of fat vs. sugars you'll burn which is among the big benefits of raising FTP as well as race day pacing to preserve precious muscle glycogen which cannot be replenished fully during the ride itself.

- Post ride refueling is essential to replenish your spent glycogen stores especially if you want to train or race again within the next couple of days. You can't consume glycogen directly, you consume carbs and they're converted to glycogen and stored in the muscles. Your body is most efficient at synthesizing and storing muscle glycogen in the first half hour to hour after finishing your rides. This period often called the 'critical half hour' is the best time to get some carbs along with some protein on board as it's used very effectively during that time. Wait an hour or more and your glycogen resynthesis rates drop by half or more and it takes longer to replenish your glycogen stores which can have a big impact on subsequent training sessions or racing on following days.

- There's a lot of studies pointing to the benefits of mixing high GI carbs with some protein for that critical half hour refueling. Lot's of companies tout the best mix (e.g. 3:1, 4:1. 5:1 carb to protein, etc.) but the research is inconclusive and all that's clear is that some protein along with the carbs is beneficial. Low fat chocolate milk is a favorite of many riders and supported by a few studies but there are good commercial recovery drinks like Endurox, Recoverite, Metabolol, etc. Or a fruit smoothy with some lowfat yogurt added or with added protein powder or a handful of other concoctions can get the job done.

- There's still a limit to how much you can store as glycogen during the post ride period and most commercial drinks advocate up to 300-400 Calories or so in that first period followed an hour later by another dose or a regular meal. You can certainly eat more but the excess will be stored as fat. Not necessarily a problem if you're trying to maintain or even gain weight but not great if you're trying to lose weight.

- In the end weight maintenance is a matter of balancing calories ingested vs. burned including resting metabolic burn rates along with whatever you burned turning the pedals or with other exercise. So over the course of a day, the week or longer time frames the calories should balance to maintain your same weight. So if you're trying to hold an even weight you do want to replenish what you burned in exercise and during the rest of the day and night but you want to do that in a way that includes all on bike food, pre ride, post ride and regular meals, snacks, etc. So think big picture for weight management but realize that there are limits to on-bike intake and best times tor refuel as well as limits (if you want most of it stored as glycogen and not fat) for post ride refueling.

-Dave
 
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


- Post ride refueling is essential to replenish your spent glycogen stores especially if you want to train or race again within the next couple of days. You can't consume glycogen directly, you consume carbs and they're converted to glycogen and stored in the muscles. Your body is most efficient at synthesizing and storing muscle glycogen in the first half hour to hour after finishing your rides. This period often called the 'critical half hour' is the best time to get some carbs along with some protein on board as it's used very effectively during that time. Wait an hour or more and your glycogen resynthesis rates drop by half or more and it takes longer to replenish your glycogen stores which can have a big impact on subsequent training sessions or racing on following days.
- There's a lot of studies pointing to the benefits of mixing high GI carbs with some protein for that critical half hour refueling. Lot's of companies tout the best mix (e.g. 3:1, 4:1. 5:1 carb to protein, etc.) but the research is inconclusive and all that's clear is that some protein along with the carbs is beneficial. Low fat chocolate milk is a favorite of many riders and supported by a few studies but there are good commercial recovery drinks like Endurox, Recoverite, Metabolol, etc. Or a fruit smoothy with some lowfat yogurt added or with added protein powder or a handful of other concoctions can get the job done.
Not to be critical of Dave, but of those who write these ideas in the first place.

It is really hard to train or race hard enough for when, what, or how you eat to matter. All of the racers I rode with 20 years ago could eat vast amounts (over 1000cal) during a 5 minute water bottle fill break (every couple hours) on a hard 5 or 6 hour ride. They never had a rush to eat after a ride. They would show up the next day and ride hard again.

It might be best to say that your body adapts to your eating habits. So get into a habit and do it every day. (I eat the same breakfast and the same lunch every day. While they are before and after my daily ride, they might be immediately or 3 hours or more before or after. But my body knows what to expect.)
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .
Not to be critical of Dave, but of those who write these ideas in the first place....
If it works for you great, but those that wrote and studied these things are exercise physiologists, nutritionists and coaches and not random old guys on the internet. But I don't doubt you could go long day after day if you paced appropriately. FWIW, I definitely feel the difference between paying attention to post ride refueling during stage races or periods of back to back hard training days but YMMV so go with whatever works for you.

But since the OP specifically asked about refueling strategies I'd go with what research shows and what professionals in the field recommend.

Some peer reviewed studies on the subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19108717
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21116024
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19234590
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18607220
http://www.acsm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=About_ACSM&TEMPLATE=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=14752

Some very good info here as well: http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition
Specifically this: http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/competition_and_training2/recovery_nutrition

and here: http://www.hammernutrition.com/downloads/fuelinghandbook.pdf


-Dave
 
As usual Dave has it covered and then some. To reiterate, the two most important things are:

(1) Eat about 2-300 calories per hour while on the bike for rides longer than 2 hrs. If you are eating too much your stomach will let you know. Too little and you will get weak eventually.

(2) Try to replenish almost all the calories burned that same day. I.e., if your base metabolism is 2000 calories per day, and you burn 2000 on your ride. Eat 4000 that day. It is often hard to quite get it all in, especially after a really long ride. In that case be sure to catch up the next morning. Try to make sure you're never "starving". Use late night snacks and a big breakfast to catch you up.

I realize that you can get away with ignoring these things, but you will feel more consistently good if you follow them and you will be strong every day.
 
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .
A lot of people quote Joe Friel. He says drink when you are thirsty and eat what agrees with you in quantities that agree with you. He also makes the observation that the length and intensity of the effort will change what and when you should eat and drink.

---

I don't pick at peer reviewed papers. It seems that opinions change over time. Much less time than genetics would cause a change in the population. While well meaning, the claims of most peer reviewed papers are misapplied.

Feel free to eat and drink as you wish.
 
Tanks to you all. Your answers helped me a lot. Especially Dave's posts for being very informative.
If I got further questions I'll come back to this thread.
 
Hi,

Rapid refueling is most important for people who do repeated bouts of intense, depleting exercise. You want to rapidly refuel if you are, let’s say, a triathlete who does double workouts and will be exercising within the next six hours.

boot camp course
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .

It seems that opinions change over time.
Except yours?

One of the reasons opinions change and evolve is as a result of research and study.

For the OP, Dave has (once again) provided all the info you need.
 
Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .



A lot tied up in your questions, but here's a few thoughts:

- Your PM reports kilojoules of energy burned by turning the cranks. That's not exactly the same as dietary calories burned but for all practical purposes it's close enough so most folks use kj as a direct equivalent to calories burned which is a good starting point.

- How much you refuel on the bike has more to do with the amount folks can tolerate before overloading their systems and running into cramping, bloating and other GI distress. For most riders riding fairly hard that means limiting yourself to something in the range of 250 to 300 Calories per hour while riding at the most and that should include solid foods and any energy drinks.

- For many folks riding hard means burning 500-1100 or more Calories per hour which translates to average power in the 140 to 300 watt range. So unless you're riding really easily you simply can't digest enough calories per hour to keep up with your burn rate so it's almost always a deficit spending game where you're relying heavily on stored fuels including stored glycogen and body fat stores and hopefully to a lesser extent stored muscle protein.

- Typical adult cyclists can store something on the order of 1220-1800 Calories worth of muscle glycogen and blood glucose in their muscles and their liver if they're fully topped up before a ride. That depends a lot on muscle mass as well as training history as one benefit of endurance training is higher muscle glycogen storage.

- Unless you're riding right up at your FTP or VO2 Max pace you're burning some percentage of stored fat as well as sugars in the form of glycogen, glucose, blood lactate, etc. So not all your caloric burn is supported by sugars and the lower the ride intensity relative to your FTP the higher the percentage of fat vs. sugars you'll burn which is among the big benefits of raising FTP as well as race day pacing to preserve precious muscle glycogen which cannot be replenished fully during the ride itself.

- Post ride refueling is essential to replenish your spent glycogen stores especially if you want to train or race again within the next couple of days. You can't consume glycogen directly, you consume carbs and they're converted to glycogen and stored in the muscles. Your body is most efficient at synthesizing and storing muscle glycogen in the first half hour to hour after finishing your rides. This period often called the 'critical half hour' is the best time to get some carbs along with some protein on board as it's used very effectively during that time. Wait an hour or more and your glycogen resynthesis rates drop by half or more and it takes longer to replenish your glycogen stores which can have a big impact on subsequent training sessions or racing on following days.

- There's a lot of studies pointing to the benefits of mixing high GI carbs with some protein for that critical half hour refueling. Lot's of companies tout the best mix (e.g. 3:1, 4:1. 5:1 carb to protein, etc.) but the research is inconclusive and all that's clear is that some protein along with the carbs is beneficial. Low fat chocolate milk is a favorite of many riders and supported by a few studies but there are good commercial recovery drinks like Endurox, Recoverite, Metabolol, etc. Or a fruit smoothy with some lowfat yogurt added or with added protein powder or a handful of other concoctions can get the job done.

- There's still a limit to how much you can store as glycogen during the post ride period and most commercial drinks advocate up to 300-400 Calories or so in that first period followed an hour later by another dose or a regular meal. You can certainly eat more but the excess will be stored as fat. Not necessarily a problem if you're trying to maintain or even gain weight but not great if you're trying to lose weight.

- In the end weight maintenance is a matter of balancing calories ingested vs. burned including resting metabolic burn rates along with whatever you burned turning the pedals or with other exercise. So over the course of a day, the week or longer time frames the calories should balance to maintain your same weight. So if you're trying to hold an even weight you do want to replenish what you burned in exercise and during the rest of the day and night but you want to do that in a way that includes all on bike food, pre ride, post ride and regular meals, snacks, etc. So think big picture for weight management but realize that there are limits to on-bike intake and best times tor refuel as well as limits (if you want most of it stored as glycogen and not fat) for post ride refueling.

-Dave
Nice post!


My coach says that i should refuel even on short rides 2,5-3 hrs - which does not deplete the glycogen stores completely - because it will both speed up recovery and make it possible to rider harder in the last half of the training session. Any research on that?
 
Originally Posted by numminummi .


. Any research on that?...
Not that I'm aware of, but that really seems pretty obvious given the research that's been done in terms of glycogen storage, in-ride fueling, and glycogen resynthesis. Eating mid ride, even in shorter and medium length rides spares your stored glycogen which means less to resynthesize and store post ride for the same or higher levels on subsequent days.

I don't know of any formal research that says fueling today even if you're nowhere near bonking is a good thing but it seems pretty obvious that it should be.

FWIW, I always eat on rides with any intensity and especially on anything over an hour or so and for exactly the reasons your coach wants you to eat on shorter rides. In those cases I'm eating for the following day(s) not just to get through the current ride. I hear folks talking about how they can get through two to three hour rides without carrying food, sure you can, as can most of us if we weren't too depleted at the start, but the question is whether we should go without food just because we can. There's a lot of good studies that demonstrate the strong correlation between chronic glycogen depletion and over training symptoms so why go there?

-Dave
 
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From what i've read - and as you also mention - the body is able to absorb around 250 kcal/hr. Do you then recommend to shoot for that for every hour of exercise? Normally i consume 500 kcal from energy drinks when doing >3,5 hrs of training which is enough to not bonk.
 
Originally Posted by numminummi .

From what i've read - and as you also mention - the body is able to absorb around 250 kcal/hr. Do you then recommend to shoot for that for every hour of exercise? Normally i consume 500 kcal from energy drinks when doing >3,5 hrs of training which is enough to not bonk.
To be honest I don't try for the maximum of 250-300 Calories per hour unless I'm riding a long ride or race where I'm worried about bonking. On shorter to mid length training rides I'll consume up to 100 Calories per hour via drinks and another 100 or so an hour via solid food like Shot Blox, energy bars, bananas or other pocket food. I'm not necessarily trying to stay completely on top of refueling as I would in a long race but also trying not to starve myself and prolong the recovery and refueling cycle by not eating at all. I generally polish off a package of Shot Blox in the final half hour or so of most rides as I'm winding down and heading home and it's entirely for future rides as I'm not worried about actually having enough energy to get home in those cases.

-Dave
 
Originally Posted by bing181 .




Except yours?

One of the reasons opinions change and evolve is as a result of research and study.

For the OP, Dave has (once again) provided all the info you need.
My opinions change. I used to be able to ingest huge amounts of sugars in 2 minutes without any "distress." Now, if I ingest 100 calories of sugars, I need to find a bathroom quickly. But a quart of milk (600+ calories) every hour causes no problems. Lately, I have been having my usual breakfast and a lovely doughnut just before my ride. I do a bit better with the doughnut then without, but I tend to gain weight (and the doughnut costs $.75).

I do my own research and study. If you did your own, you might find that few individuals fit the 250-300 calorie maximum you and Dave suggest. But if you want to believe the research of others, by all means do so.
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .


My opinions change. I used to be able to ingest huge amounts of sugars in 2 minutes without any "distress." Now, if I ingest 100 calories of sugars, I need to find a bathroom quickly. But a quart of milk (600+ calories) every hour causes no problems. Lately, I have been having my usual breakfast and a lovely doughnut just before my ride. I do a bit better with the doughnut then without, but I tend to gain weight (and the doughnut costs $.75).

I do my own research and study. If you did your own, you might find that few individuals fit the 250-300 calorie maximum you and Dave suggest. But if you want to believe the research of others, by all means do so.

I disagree. I have read numerous pieces of information that talk about the 250-300 calories. You mentioned Joe Friel above as well in another post. Even he subscribes to that - as does Carmichael. So, you are really the minority here on what works for them. If this works for you, great. But, I would like for you to share this other research you mention. I'm interested.
 
Everyone is a bit different but most people fall in the 250-400 kcal/hr range. Somewhere around 350-400 kcal/hr is my limit (stomach will let you know). Absolutely do not drink milk. It is hard to digest and is one of the worst things you could eat before hard endurance exercise.
 
Above all don't swim for an hour after eating. No one of importance believes that anymore.

I found this on the internet:

Most credible sites and papers state that we burn approximately 10-12% of the calories we consume digesting and assimilating those calories. This jives with other sources which state that it takes about 4-5% of the calories in fat to digest fat, 10-12 % of the calories in carbohydrates to digest them and 20-22% of the calories in lean protein to digest them. And so you can see how the average could be 10-12% if we eat the proper "mix" of foods.

I have no idea if it is correct or not.

1 watt is about 1 calorie/hour (Kcalorie for those who might want to distinguish.)

Assuming that oxygen transport to digest food reduces the amount of oxygen (and related blood flow) for bicycling (eating produces the fuel to digest the food) it seems that eating 250cal/hr costs a bicyclist 25 watts of power. ( I have assumed a steady state of 250cal/hr input and an equivalent amount of digestion. I have no desire to bicker over how fast the food one eats is digested.)

25w is a lot of power loss due to eating. Certainly enough that bicyclists would be discussing it. I don't see anyone claiming that power loss is important just digestive discomfort. So I guess that the body has enough blood flow to accomadate both relatively hard riding and digestion.

I don't see any reason to believe that eating too much during an event has any affect except for those who might change their habits and suddenly start to eat large amounts on rides. But then any habit change can affect one's performance.

---

I have read that professionals eat on the bike today for the race tomorrow. It seems that they may have physical constraints on how many calories they can get down between the end of a race and bed time. In that case 1500 extra calories during a race would certainly help out.
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .

I found this on the internet:

I have no idea if it is correct or not.

1 watt is about 1 calorie/hour (Kcalorie for those who might want to distinguish.)
Wouldn't that be watt-hours?

What watts...

 
I wonder if, like other threads with spelling errors in the title, that this will grow into a monster of triple digit page proportions.

Without refuling you can't be pealing properly can you?
 

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