Entry level road bike alum frames
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I am now curious about this and your apparent attempt to avoid the question. I have also noticed, from some of your other posts, that, for the most part, you seem to only have a limited understanding of whatever subject you are replying to.alfeng said:
I am now curious about this and your apparent attempt to avoid the question. I have also noticed, from some of your other posts, that, for the most part, you seem to only have a limited understanding of whatever subject you are replying to.alfeng said:
A quick glance at the Columbus Tubing catalog shows quite a variety of tube diameters typically with multiple options for a given tube set. Are you trying to say that they stopped making the smaller sizes in '94 and haven't told us yet?alfeng said:
Instead you would rather him suffer the indignity of going into a bike shop and asking for the heaviest frame they have?alfeng said:
Was that a clever way of implying that my posts are not precise? Or just that they don't have enough multi colored text to satisfy your attention span? I don't recall asking for precision, but merely the slightest shred of logic. You made the absurd claim that the heavier of two frames is inherently stiffer. I proposed some cases where the opposite is true, and the best you can come back with is more name calling.alfeng said:
Don't hold your breath. He's probably not going to tell us how modulus of elasticity is affected by temperature either. I get the feeling I'm going to be deprived of all of this brilliant wisdom that's been left out of the dozens of books I've read on the subject...fish156 said:
Yes, Giant's factory. But isn't each companies frames made to their specific specification.capwater said:
For a good topic on MTB Slicks, see: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t291662.html What gearing do you have at the moment?gclark8 said:Good thinking 99!!!
Buy some narrow slicks and a fast cassette for the MTB!!
Wow! If you don't like my answer(s), then ignore (color added for artmichalek's benefit) them -- refute them if you so choose ...Duracellis said:
You know, the problem I have with artmichalek's query is that I really don't think that he knows what tempering is!
Re-read artmichalek statement that it is an "interesting concept" -- it suggests that he is completely clueless.
Honestly, I would not be surprised if artmichalek conjured something related to his 2nd Grade adventures in either tempera painting OR perhaps related to batter fried vegetables he may have had while dining at a Japanese restaurant ... so, what is the point in trying to elaborate to a smart-ass who isn't as smart as he thinks he is?
As far as I'm concerned, and you certainly don't have to agree with me in this regard, if artmichalek is not concerned with either the modulus of elasticity OR the tensile strength, then he probably does not know they are modified by fatigue. Fatigue can be induced by excess heat. No, I'm not going to quantify what "excess" heat is. (Again, color intentionally added ...).
FWIW. If you look at post-weld changes under a microscope, you will see may be described as is minor crystalline degradation NEAR the weld regardless of the skill of the welder. No, I can't describe it better ... you either know what I'm talking about, or you don't.
No doubt, if I had NOT qualified the earlier statement by suggesting that the two hypothetical frames under scrutiny were properly tempered (it is, of course, HIGHLY UNLIKELY that the process would be part of the assembly in a mass produced, economy frame), then the annealing caused by the excess heat (oh, there I go again with an unquantified term) would have been cited as a cause for a difference in frame stiffness.
I have not personally tempered aluminum, but one may suppose that the process is similar to tempering steel by way of a controlled temp oil bath.
OT. I know some of you are birds of a feather -- why don't you ask fish156 why he recently answered a question about ERD without apparently know what it was?
I'm just pointing out that that if you want to hold ME up to scrutiny because you think there is a problem with MY replies, then you should refute them, AND extend to the same scrutiny to replies by others ...
Now, why don't you "girls" go and schedule a pajama party with one another?
Looks like we've gone and gotten you so worked up you don't even know which of us you're "replying" to.alfeng said:
I certainly don't have to agree with you, because you are wrong. Fatigue is caused by cyclic stresses. The microstructural reorientation (not degredation. and yes, I've seen plenty of micrographs of welds) you're attempting to speak of is caused by the cooling rate of the weld area. Even if fatigue was the correct term, modulus of elasticity in metals is not affected by changes in crystal structure (unless you're bike is on the order of a few nanometers tall). Nor is it affected by changes in alloy composition or temperature. It is a function solely of the interatomic attractions of the base metal lattice.alfeng said:
Sorry, I stand corrected!artmichalek said:
You all look the same under your "hoods."
Well, thanks for the clarification of nomenclature -- sorry my replies continue to lack precision to the point of annoyance for you ... honestly.artmichalek said:
BTW. Feel free to clarify (as you have recently done) and/or refute OR ignore my replies ... and, yes, your posts are NOT precise regardless of how clearly you think you are expressing yourself.
... I still think you "girls" should schedule a pajama party together! You can probably make-out with one another after a few pints and relieve some of your collective anxiety.
Yeh, I'm not. He's apparently lost track of the fact that his comment about "tempering after welding" was about aluminum and now's he's trying to fool us all into believing that his comment included steel. He's making up brand new metal working processes as he goes along.artmichalek said:
Sorry to be in your words, "anal retentive", but your posts do not lack precision. They lack accuracy. Despite your best assertions, a carefull description of something that's completely wrong does not make it "essentially" correct.alfeng said:
alfeng, just so you know, your not a Jedi master. If you think that waving your hand over the keyboard before you hit return fools us into buying any of your nonsense, it doesn't. All of the bolding, underlining, italicizing, colored and resized fonts, does exactly nothing to bolster your arguments. You've certainly mastered the nuclear approach to that stuff.
There's nobody in league with each other against you here. artmichalek and I have been on opposite sides of the issue in the past, but at least his arguments have merit to them and you are doing a great job of making him look like an expert. Having read many of his posts in the past, it's pretty clear that he actually is an expert on material processes. The big difference between you and artmichalek is that he bases his postings in fact/s (and frequently backs them up with independent sources) and the only one that seems to know your sources is you. He clearly understands the scientific process and, if you did, you'd be backing up your claims. When you start posting some independent sources to back up your claims, then maybe people will start believing you and stop attacking you as the fraud you seem to be. I could change my mind about you, but I haven't seen one iota of evidence that would lead to that decision.
When you can come up with a reputable source that describes the "tempering after welding" process for aluminum, I'll be sure and publish an apology to you in this forum. Until then, your integrity is in serious question.
There's nobody in league with each other against you here. artmichalek and I have been on opposite sides of the issue in the past, but at least his arguments have merit to them and you are doing a great job of making him look like an expert. Having read many of his posts in the past, it's pretty clear that he actually is an expert on material processes. The big difference between you and artmichalek is that he bases his postings in fact/s (and frequently backs them up with independent sources) and the only one that seems to know your sources is you. He clearly understands the scientific process and, if you did, you'd be backing up your claims. When you start posting some independent sources to back up your claims, then maybe people will start believing you and stop attacking you as the fraud you seem to be. I could change my mind about you, but I haven't seen one iota of evidence that would lead to that decision.
When you can come up with a reputable source that describes the "tempering after welding" process for aluminum, I'll be sure and publish an apology to you in this forum. Until then, your integrity is in serious question.
First, artmichalek does not owe me, or anybody else, any explanations. Trying to pass the buck to him is so lame.alfeng said:HMMmm. OKAY!
Now, could/would you explain to fish156 that aluminum can be tempered?
Second, your original quote - the one that I questioned - is:
Allowing that the two frames are identically spec'd by the designing engineer, and presuming that the frames are properly tempered after welding, the heavier one will have heavier welds and will undoubtedly be infinitesimally stiffer BECAUSE it has more material at the welds and/or more paint.
So, let's stick with justifying that statement. Bicycle frames don't actually get tempered after they are welded, do they? Tempering aluminum after welding is not a part of any standard process, as applied to bicycle building, or repair, is it?BTW, attributing frame stiffness to "more paint" is also an interesting concept. That must be some damn stiff paint. Can you specify paint "stiffness" when you get your frame painted?
Frame owner: "Hey, Fred, I want the stiffest paint you've got for this frame."
Fred, the painter: "Sure, no problem. That'll be $500 extra."
F.O. : "Well, if the paint's really stiff then it's easily worth the extra $500. I've heard really great things about stiff paint."
1) I wouldn't be swallowing any of my pride because I never said anything about aluminum being tempered.alfeng said:
2) Aluminum can't be tempered. Tempering refers to heating matensitic steel in order to relieve internal stresses and induce a phase transition. Aluminum is single phase and thus cannot be tempered. Aluminum bike frames are heated to a temperature below annealing for a period of time after welding, then air cooled, but this has nothing to do with tempering.
Now, will you run along and stop wasting our time?
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