EPO and Hobby Cyclists

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Fred, Apr 16, 2004.



  1. trg

    trg Guest

    IMO, EPO is of little practical value to anyone but an elite athlete (and of
    course those with serious medical conditions).

    Increasing the amount of oxygen available to muscles will only help if the
    muscles are trained to such a state that they can use all the oxygen already
    available. If your muscles are not able to use all the oxygen available (the
    case with most of us), increasing red blood cells to provide more oxygen
    (the action of EPO) won't be of much help.

    Gunny Bunny wrote:
    > Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that
    > dangerous ??
    >
    > http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html
    >
    > http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html
    >
    > http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm
    >
    > http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm
     
  2. Gunny Bunny

    Gunny Bunny Guest

    Oh, u make some good points there :)

    However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for air,
    if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.

    "trg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > IMO, EPO is of little practical value to anyone but an elite athlete (and

    of
    > course those with serious medical conditions).
    >
    > Increasing the amount of oxygen available to muscles will only help if the
    > muscles are trained to such a state that they can use all the oxygen

    already
    > available. If your muscles are not able to use all the oxygen available

    (the
    > case with most of us), increasing red blood cells to provide more oxygen
    > (the action of EPO) won't be of much help.
    >
    > Gunny Bunny wrote:
    > > Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that
    > > dangerous ??
    > >
    > > http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html
    > >
    > > http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html
    > >
    > > http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm
    > >
    > > http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm

    >
    >
     
  3. J999w

    J999w Guest

    >However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for air,
    >if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.


    Platelets or something else?

    jw
     
  4. Derk

    Derk Guest

    Gunny Bunny wrote:

    > However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for
    > air, if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.

    Well, if you don't mind gambling with your health.....

    Why do you think it's banned?

    Derk
     
  5. NobodyMan

    NobodyMan Guest

    On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:02:47 -0400, "Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    >"trg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >> IMO, EPO is of little practical value to anyone but an elite athlete (and

    >of
    >> course those with serious medical conditions).
    >>
    >> Increasing the amount of oxygen available to muscles will only help if the
    >> muscles are trained to such a state that they can use all the oxygen

    >already
    >> available. If your muscles are not able to use all the oxygen available

    >(the
    >> case with most of us), increasing red blood cells to provide more oxygen
    >> (the action of EPO) won't be of much help.
    >>
    >> Gunny Bunny wrote:
    >> > Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that
    >> > dangerous ??
    >> >
    >> > http://sport.guardian.co.uk/cycling/story/0,10482,1178479,00.html
    >> >
    >> > http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040325/2/2rhp.html
    >> >
    >> > http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa052800a.htm
    >> >
    >> > http://bicycling.about.com/library/weekly/aa022199.htm

    >>
    >>

    >
    >Oh, u make some good points there :)
    >
    >However, I tend to disagree, we all get tired 'eventually' and gasp for air,
    >if we have more platelets, we would not tire as quickly.
    >

    Platelets have nothing to do with performance enhancement using EPO,
    or with the carrying of O2 in the bloodstream.

    EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
    capablility.

    Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

    In fact, you place yourself in jeopard. You clog your bloodstream
    with more rbcs, raising your hematocrit level, but when you go out and
    sweat, you lower the plasma level, becoming more and more likely to
    form an embolis - and die.

    Improper use of EPO can and has killed people. Don't play with this
    one folks.
     
  6. Gunny Bunny

    Gunny Bunny Guest

    "BaCardi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Fred wrote:
    > > It's virtually impossible to get, if you're a moron.
    > >

    http://www.noprescriptiondrugs.com/pharm93.htmlhttp://www.noprescriptio-
    > > ndrugs.com/pharm93.html

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > This is totally irresponsible for you to post a link to an online
    > pharmacy where you can supposedly buy this stuff. 1) This stuff is
    > dangerous and 2) There are illegal pharmacies like this one all over the
    > place. You could do a search on google and find a lot of these places.
    > They are illegal in the USA, Canada, Eurpeon nations, etc. I've read
    > about places like this. They take your money and run.
    >
    > EPO is and should be prescribed by physicians. It is a prescription drug
    > and is illegal to purchase without consent and supervision from a
    > doctor. The stuff is highly dangerous. Your suggestion of a place to buy
    > the stuff is out of line. To the OP, DON'T DO IT!


    Well, Patani did it and it worked for him !!
     
  7. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    > those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
    > capablility.
    >
    > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.


    This is not true.

    Andy Coggan
     
  8. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:08:38 -0400, "Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]> may
    have said:

    >Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of


    Yes.

    >and is it really that dangerous ??


    Yes, if improperly used. Of course, for some people, the only safe
    dose is zero. In light of the lack of ability for the average person
    to evaluate the drug's safety for their own use, do you want to take
    the risk given the small benefit that might theoretically be obtained?
    Bear in mind that the most probable outcome of its use for someone who
    is not a competitive-level athlete is that you won't be able to tell
    much of a difference if any...

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  9. NobodyMan

    NobodyMan Guest

    On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >
    >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    >> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
    >> capablility.
    >>
    >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

    >
    >This is not true.
    >
    >Andy Coggan
    >

    Research cites to back this, please?
     
  10. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    > > EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    > > those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
    > > capablility.
    > >
    > > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

    >
    > This is not true.


    I wonder where people pick up these myths. EPO is beginning to have more
    myths about it than helmets.
     
  11. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that dangerous ??


    EPO is of little worth to a normal human being. If you're like most every
    other humans on the planet you already have a hematocrit of somewhere
    between 42% and 50% NORMALLY. Most recreational racers/riders will already
    be from 46%-48%. Stress will be a major factor in RBC lifespan for you.

    If you are highly trained athlete who has been training very hard over a
    long period of time your hematocrit can fall not so much from not being able
    to replace RBC's fast enough as from increasing your total blood volume from
    training. You can also reduce the numbers of RBC's from extended anaerobic
    training.

    Most people aren't going to train this hard or this long. Therefore, EPO
    isn't of much use to someone that isn't a highly trained athlete since
    additional slight gains in oxygen carrying capacity aren't matched by
    additional total blood volume.

    EPO forces the body to produce additional RBC's. However, it ain't magic. If
    you use it too often and in too high doses, it can cause some pretty serious
    side effects ranging from your marrow being depleted of immature RBC's to
    developing an allergy to your own EPO which of course means curtains.

    So the long and the short of it are that it does almost nothing to a normal
    cyclist and can end up killing you. Does that sound like a good tradeoff to
    you?
     
  12. "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>
    > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

    > >
    > >This is not true.
    > >
    > >Andy Coggan
    > >

    > Research cites to back this, please?
    >
    >


    1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
    to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.

    2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
    you have increased your fitness or not.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Guest

    On 4/18/04 2:22 PM, in article [email protected], "Carl
    Sundquist" <[email protected]cox-internet.com> wrote:

    >
    > "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>>
    >>>> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    >>>> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    >>>> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    >>>> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    >>>
    >>> This is not true.
    >>>
    >>> Andy Coggan
    >>>

    >> Research cites to back this, please?
    >>
    >>

    >
    > 1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
    > to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
    >
    > 2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
    > you have increased your fitness or not.
    >
    >


    Are you saying your "Gaydar" will be enhanced too?
     
  14. Steve wrote:
    > On 4/18/04 2:22 PM, in article [email protected], "Carl
    > Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>
    >>>>>Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    >>>>>blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    >>>>>the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    >>>>>muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    >>>>
    >>>>This is not true.
    >>>>
    >>>>Andy Coggan
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Research cites to back this, please?
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
    >>to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
    >>
    >>2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
    >>you have increased your fitness or not.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > Are you saying your "Gaydar" will be enhanced too?


    No, the EPO was after that.

    Steve

    >
     
  15. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    > >> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
    > >> capablility.
    > >>
    > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.

    > >
    > >This is not true.
    > >
    > >Andy Coggan
    > >

    > Research cites to back this, please?


    They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the more
    modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using search terms such
    "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.

    Andy Coggan
     
  16. Gunny Bunny

    Gunny Bunny Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
    > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > >"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > >news:[email protected]
    > > >
    > > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    > > >> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
    > > >> capablility.
    > > >>
    > > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > > >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > > >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > > >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    > > >
    > > >This is not true.
    > > >
    > > >Andy Coggan
    > > >

    > > Research cites to back this, please?

    >
    > They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the more
    > modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using search terms

    such
    > "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.
    >
    > Andy Coggan


    Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support your
    argument if u have one :)
     
  17. Tim Mullin

    Tim Mullin Guest

    "Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:p[email protected]:

    >
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >> > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
    >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > >"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> > >news:[email protected]
    >> > >
    >> > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more
    >> > >> of those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
    >> > >> carrying capablility.
    >> > >>
    >> > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided
    >> > >> in our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level
    >> > >> yet, unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't
    >> > >> help if you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is
    >> > >> already there.
    >> > >
    >> > >This is not true.
    >> > >
    >> > >Andy Coggan
    >> > >
    >> > Research cites to back this, please?

    >>
    >> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
    >> more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
    >> search terms

    > such
    >> "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.
    >>
    >> Andy Coggan

    >
    > Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
    > your argument if u have one :)


    Shouldn't it be the guy claiming "The truth is...." first back up his
    statement? Dr. Coggan is well known exercise physiologist, and well
    respected in these parts. I tend to believe what he says, because he has
    some expertise in the field. No offense, but when someone with the
    esteemed moniker "NobodyMan" claims that most of us don't use all the
    oxygen in out blood....well....why the fuck should I believe him? Here's
    how it works, you first made the claim, Andy called bullshit, and you
    really need to take a bit of your own advice and, "provide at least one
    to support your argument if u have one :)"
     
  18. trg

    trg Guest

    Gunny Bunny wrote:
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>> news:[email protected]
    >>>>
    >>>>> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
    >>>>> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
    >>>>> carrying capablility.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in
    >>>>> our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet,
    >>>>> unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if
    >>>>> you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is already
    >>>>> there.
    >>>>
    >>>> This is not true.
    >>>>
    >>>> Andy Coggan
    >>>>
    >>> Research cites to back this, please?

    >>
    >> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
    >> more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
    >> search terms such "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory
    >> capacity", etc.
    >>
    >> Andy Coggan

    >
    > Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
    > your argument if u have one :)


    Even though it runs counter to my personal experience, Andy's word is gold
    in this matter. My own experience was so far from a contriolled, quantified
    study, that I assume there were other factors mitigating the effects of a
    rising crit. I went from a crit of 21 to 56 in little more than a year,
    stopping off at around 35 for some months. An interesting experience, but
    probably useless in experimental terms.
     
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