EPO and Hobby Cyclists

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Fred, Apr 16, 2004.

  1. NobodyMan

    NobodyMan Guest

    On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:50:09 GMT, Tim Mullin <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >"Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:p[email protected]:
    >
    >>
    >> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]
    >>> > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
    >>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> >
    >>> > >"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> > >news:[email protected]
    >>> > >
    >>> > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more
    >>> > >> of those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
    >>> > >> carrying capablility.
    >>> > >>
    >>> > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided
    >>> > >> in our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level
    >>> > >> yet, unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't
    >>> > >> help if you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is
    >>> > >> already there.
    >>> > >
    >>> > >This is not true.
    >>> > >
    >>> > >Andy Coggan
    >>> > >
    >>> > Research cites to back this, please?
    >>>
    >>> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
    >>> more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
    >>> search terms

    >> such
    >>> "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.
    >>>
    >>> Andy Coggan

    >>
    >> Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
    >> your argument if u have one :)

    >
    >Shouldn't it be the guy claiming "The truth is...." first back up his
    >statement? Dr. Coggan is well known exercise physiologist, and well
    >respected in these parts. I tend to believe what he says, because he has
    >some expertise in the field. No offense, but when someone with the
    >esteemed moniker "NobodyMan" claims that most of us don't use all the
    >oxygen in out blood....well....why the fuck should I believe him? Here's
    >how it works, you first made the claim, Andy called bullshit, and you
    >really need to take a bit of your own advice and, "provide at least one
    >to support your argument if u have one :)"
    >


    I was going off the research I read. I asked for cites to enlighten
    my own knowledge. I'm now reading up on some of the cites that have
    been thoughtfully given.

    Did I say "You don't know what the #@#$#$ you are talking about so
    shut the #$#$#$ up?" NO. I asked for some cites. That's all.
    Otherwise all that was provided was anectdotal evidence, which is to
    say, no evidence at all.

    Geez, don't be so uptight.
     


  2. NobodyMan

    NobodyMan Guest

    On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:22:42 -0500, "Carl Sundquist"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >>
    >> >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    >> >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    >> >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    >> >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    >> >
    >> >This is not true.
    >> >
    >> >Andy Coggan
    >> >

    >> Research cites to back this, please?
    >>
    >>

    >
    >1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
    >to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
    >
    >2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
    >you have increased your fitness or not.
    >


    Anectodotal evidence, which is not evidence at all and therefore
    inadmissable. Thank you please play again.

    Now what Dr. Coogan provided I'll take to heart and read.
     
  3. "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > >1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive

    east
    > >to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
    > >
    > >2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter

    whether
    > >you have increased your fitness or not.
    > >

    >
    > Anectodotal evidence, which is not evidence at all and therefore
    > inadmissable. Thank you please play again.
    >
    > Now what Dr. Coogan provided I'll take to heart and read.
    >


    If you try to do a 100 mile ride without a seat on your seatpost, do you
    need more than anecdotal evidence to know that your ass will hurt?
     
  4. "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    >


    Research cites to back this, please?
     
  5. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    > >

    >
    > Research cites to back this, please?


    Actually he is not only right but correct as well. Blood oxygen normally
    runs about 99% in a healthy individual. You'll be seeing blackout spots at
    90% or lower.
     
  6. On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:24:55 -0500, Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > If you try to do a 100 mile ride without a seat on your seatpost


    You know, Gert-Jan Theunisse did that for some while (but without the
    post as well, presumably) after he had had an operation on the perineum.
     
  7. "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > >
    > > > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > > > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > > > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > > > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    > > >

    > >
    > > Research cites to back this, please?

    >
    > Actually he is not only right but correct as well. Blood oxygen normally
    > runs about 99% in a healthy individual. You'll be seeing blackout spots at
    > 90% or lower.


    So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
    drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
    the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
    using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?
     
  8. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
    > drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
    > the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
    > using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?


    When your blood oxygen runs below 96% or so it causes the body to release
    more natural EPO.
     
  9. "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
    > > drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
    > > the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
    > > using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?

    >
    > When your blood oxygen runs below 96% or so it causes the body to release
    > more natural EPO.
    >


    That's fine. Now go re-read what Mr. Nobody said about our muscles not being
    "trained" like elite athletes, therefore we're not using all the O2 in our
    blood anyway and unable to take advantage of an increased 'crit.
     
  10. h squared

    h squared Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    >
    > "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > "NobodyMan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > >
    > > > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
    > > > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
    > > > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
    > > > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
    > > >

    > >
    > > Research cites to back this, please?

    >
    > Actually he is not only right but correct as well. Blood oxygen normally
    > runs about 99% in a healthy individual. You'll be seeing blackout spots at
    > 90% or lower.



    leaving the subject itself behind, isn't it somewhat amusing that the
    person who wrote that post would bust ("Thank you please play again.")
    on carl for not providing research cites in his reply? perhaps instead
    he should have provided his own supporting evidence?

    hh
     
  11. h squared

    h squared Guest

    h squared wrote:
    > perhaps instead
    > he should have provided his own supporting evidence?


    ps. i see where he wrote that he would do the homework that coggan
    provided, that's cool, just had to speak up (or indulge in my own round
    of butt kissing, whatever you prefer) for carl.

    h
     
  12. Phil

    Phil Guest

    "Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that dangerous ??
    >

    --snip--

    Seems to me good solid traininng would make more of a difference to
    hobby atheletes. How many of us get THAT close to our maximum
    ability.

    Regards

    http://runners4bush2004.rantweb.com
     
  13. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > >
    > > > So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
    > > > drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
    > > > the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
    > > > using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?

    > >
    > > When your blood oxygen runs below 96% or so it causes the body to

    release
    > > more natural EPO.

    >
    > That's fine. Now go re-read what Mr. Nobody said about our muscles not

    being
    > "trained" like elite athletes, therefore we're not using all the O2 in our
    > blood anyway and unable to take advantage of an increased 'crit.


    That wasn't what I was agreeing with. I was agreeing with the statement that
    people don't use the oxygen they have present in their blood. That's true
    and correct but only as far as it goes. In order for everything to operate
    properly your blood oxygen must stay pretty close to saturation.

    My ex-brother-in-law was something of a world record as the only person to
    live to 40 years old with no pulmonary artery. His blood oxygen was stable
    at about 76% if memory serves and his blood was always pretty thick because
    of that. Finally they transplanted a pulmonary artery in him and the
    presence of oxygen made him so giddy he was like a drunk for a couple of
    years until his body got used to it.

    As you intimate, the training of the muscles has almost nothing to do with
    the delivery of oxygen to them. Although I believe that more well trained
    muscles have more mitochondria than untrained muscles. So maybe to a very
    small extent the statement that more highly trained athletes better use
    oxygen might be somewhat true. But certainly hematocrit has little to do
    with this mechanism.
     
  14. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "h squared" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > leaving the subject itself behind, isn't it somewhat amusing that the
    > person who wrote that post would bust ("Thank you please play again.")
    > on carl for not providing research cites in his reply? perhaps instead
    > he should have provided his own supporting evidence?


    Generally I've stopped supplying cites because that is generally the tactic
    of people who don't know what they're talking about. There have been any
    number of times, recently I've written something and people have demanded
    citations for things that could be varified in seconds using Google or
    Yahoo! with no help from anyone else.

    That sort of thing seems to be going around these days. In the political
    arena alone recently we've seen Richard Clarke write that Condoleesa Rice
    acted as if she had no idea what Al Queda was. The only trouble here was
    that a year before her supposed ignorance of a major terrorist group she did
    a recorded talk on that very subject.

    Just recently we see Bob Woodward write a book claiming that Colin Powell (a
    man of rather towering intellect) was "out of the loop" and "not aware of
    the war plans in Iraq" only for General Powell to claim that entirely
    inaccurate.

    What we are seeing is some sort of mass mental aberation in which writers
    are telling us what other people about whom they know nothing are thinking.
    Seems like the same guys are making comments about Hincapie.
     
  15. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Phil" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Gunny Bunny" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Is EPO really that easy to get ahold of and is it really that dangerous

    ??
    > >

    > --snip--
    >
    > Seems to me good solid traininng would make more of a difference to
    > hobby atheletes. How many of us get THAT close to our maximum
    > ability.


    EXACTLY. EPO won't make you fast. It will help KEEP a top flight athlete
    fast over a longer period of time.
     
  16. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Tom Kunich wrote:
    >
    > Generally I've stopped supplying cites because that is generally the
    > tactic of people who don't know what they're talking about. There have
    > been any number of times, recently I've written something and people
    > have demanded citations for things that could be varified in seconds
    > using Google or Yahoo! with no help from anyone else.
    >
    > That sort of thing seems to be going around these days. In the political
    > arena alone recently we've seen Richard Clarke write that Condoleesa
    > Rice acted as if she had no idea what Al Queda was. The only trouble
    > here was that a year before her supposed ignorance of a major terrorist
    > group she did a recorded talk on that very subject.


    Cite, please?
     
  17. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Generally I've stopped supplying cites because that is generally the tactic
    > of people who don't know what they're talking about.


    I'd suggest that most people who provide cites do so for the purpose of
    providing further edification on the subject at hand and, furthermore, to
    allow the public at large who may be reading these posts to understand that
    the poster has done some homework. In other words, to suggest that they are
    not plucking their 'facts' from the ether (or their nether region).

    Just saying...

    > That sort of thing seems to be going around these days. In the political
    > arena alone recently we've seen Richard Clarke write that Condoleesa Rice
    > acted as if she had no idea what Al Queda was. The only trouble here was
    > that a year before her supposed ignorance of a major terrorist group she did
    > a recorded talk on that very subject.
    >
    > Just recently we see Bob Woodward write a book claiming that Colin Powell (a
    > man of rather towering intellect) was "out of the loop" and "not aware of
    > the war plans in Iraq" only for General Powell to claim that entirely
    > inaccurate.


    So politicians never lie, especially when it suits them? Heh...

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Q: Can we call it a quagmire yet?

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  18. Tom Kunich wrote:

    > number of times, recently I've written something and people have demanded
    > citations for things that could be varified in seconds using Google or
    > Yahoo! with no help from anyone else.
    >
    > That sort of thing seems to be going around these days. In the political
    > arena alone recently we've seen Richard Clarke write that Condoleesa Rice
    > acted as if she had no idea what Al Queda was. The only trouble here was


    Talking of Dr Rice...
    "Rice's selection of sources raises questions, since he [sic] frequently
    does not sift facts from propaganda and valid information from
    disinformation or misinformation. He passes judgments and expresses
    opinions without adequate knowledge of facts."
    Review in American Historical Review (1985)
    http://www.counterpunch.org/kalvoda04202004.html

    Ya, I only checked the Web version, not the original source...
     
  19. On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:33:33 +0200, "Robert Chung" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Tom Kunich wrote:
    >>
    >> Generally I've stopped supplying cites because that is generally the
    >> tactic of people who don't know what they're talking about. There have
    >> been any number of times, recently I've written something and people
    >> have demanded citations for things that could be varified in seconds
    >> using Google or Yahoo! with no help from anyone else.
    >>
    >> That sort of thing seems to be going around these days. In the political
    >> arena alone recently we've seen Richard Clarke write that Condoleesa
    >> Rice acted as if she had no idea what Al Queda was. The only trouble
    >> here was that a year before her supposed ignorance of a major terrorist
    >> group she did a recorded talk on that very subject.

    >
    >Cite, please?
    >

    Tom is in my killfile for making too much stuff up. And again he
    confirms his willingness to just state fantasy as fact. Sad.

    JT
     
  20. Nev Shea

    Nev Shea Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]
    226327.news.uni-berlin.de:

    > Tom Kunich wrote:
    >>
    >> Generally I've stopped supplying cites because that is generally the
    >> tactic of people who don't know what they're talking about. There have
    >> been any number of times, recently I've written something and people
    >> have demanded citations for things that could be varified in seconds
    >> using Google or Yahoo! with no help from anyone else.
    >>
    >> That sort of thing seems to be going around these days. In the

    political
    >> arena alone recently we've seen Richard Clarke write that Condoleesa
    >> Rice acted as if she had no idea what Al Queda was. The only trouble
    >> here was that a year before her supposed ignorance of a major

    terrorist
    >> group she did a recorded talk on that very subject.

    >
    > Cite, please?



    He probably saw that on FOX news, and of course they know what they are
    talking about because they don't cite sources either.

    NS

    PS -- thanks Robert, for posting links to the PIPA report a while back
     
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