equal spoke tensions at dished rear wheel?

[daveornee]

carlfogel wrote:

> As everyone points out, you can't have the same tension on both sides
> because dishing requires different total tension on each side.

Forgive the neophyte question, but doesn't longer spokes
on the left & shorter on the right help equalize tension?


Larry Coon
University of California

No, as Jim Beam previously stated, it is the spoke support angle and as Carl is now bringing out... the number of spokes that determines tension.
Left spokes may be longer, but only 2 mm out of 295 (in a Shimano 8/9/10 wheel with Mavic Open Pro 700C rim as an example) or so.
Less than 1% difference doesn't do much other than make some of us want to use different length spokes (294 mm right & 296 mm left for 3X) left to right to get the end of the spoke in the desired position within the nipple.

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:57:45 -0800, Larry Coon
<lmcoon@nospam_cox.net> wrote:

>carlfogel wrote:
>
>> As everyone points out, you can't have the same tension on both sides
>> because dishing requires different total tension on each side.
>
>Forgive the neophyte question, but doesn't longer spokes
>on the left & shorter on the right help equalize tension?
>
>
>Larry Coon
>University of California

Dear Larry,

I don't think so, but would be delighted to learn otherwise.

What matters is the angle of the spokes as they enter the
rim. The drive-side spokes have a much shallower angle and
therefore much less leverage, so they require greater
tension.

Remember, the same tension on spokes at a different angle
produces a different side-to-side force--and that this
side-to-side force must be balanced for the rim to stay
motionless relative to the hub.

force +X ----------><----------force -X

left spokes right drive spokes
larger spoke angle smaller spoke-to-rim angle
more leverage less spoke-to-rim leverage
lower spoke tension higher spoke tension

Carl Fogel

 

[Larry Coon]

[email protected] wrote:

> Dear Larry,
>
> I don't think so, but would be delighted to learn otherwise.

(Rest snipped)

Thanks, Carl & Dave. One more apocryphal assumption
that's been rattling around in my head for 20+ years
debunked!


Larry Coon
University of California

 

[Weisse Luft]

Regular spaced hub flanges typically have a 50% bias on spoke tension so one could lace a wheel with half as many left side spokes as right side. This could be done with a 48 spoke hub and a 36 spoke rim. 24 spokes on the right side and 12 on the left.

 

[A Muzi]

Mark Janeba wrote:
-snip-
> [* Centurion was a label of Western States Imports. They dropped the
> label in favor of "Diamondback" some years later. Now I'm not sure if
> the company is still around]


Yes. Named because the founder, Mitch Weiner, was reading
'The New Centurions" that week. Now DiamondBack is a
division of Derby/Raleigh.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[dianne_1234]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 03:45:04 GMT, Ted <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Weisse Luft <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Not quite so fast. It is possible to achieve a tension bias to about
>> 85% using a narrow offset hub or an off center drilled rim.
>>
>> I ride the former, an American Classic 225 gram rear hub laced in the
>> non-traditional radial drive side, 2 cross non-drive. Its large
>> diameter hub shell transmits much more torque to the non-drive spokes,
>> preventing problems normally associated with radial drive side lacing.
>> Since all drive side spokes are heads in, the resultant spoke angles
>> give non-drive at 90 kg force tension and drive is 105 kg.
>
>
>
>Still too fast.
>
>Your hub transfers virtually all of its torque to the left side if the
>right side is radially spoked, which now means that using your parlance,
>the "non-drive" is the drive side.
>
>With respect to problems normally associated with radial right side
>lacing, I have made and ridden two wheels built that way, one a Campy
>and one a Bullseye. Both broke off a piece of flange, subtended arc
>about 60 degrees, after less than 1000 miles riding. Never again. Those
>breaks were not at all related to the torque that the hub shell must
>carry with
>
>I presume you have done this in an attempt to equalize left- and
>right-side spoke tensions, a laudable goal. But the effective spoke
>angle is not affected by whether the heads are in or out. The force
>vector travels from the nipple to the contact between the spoke and hub
>hole, a location which is going to be only slightly different between
>the two orientations. Doing the math will show that an offset drilled
>rim helps in much greater measure to meet your goal.
>
>Radial spoking is pure eye candy, and I've done it a number of times.
>But radial spoking in any wheel that is driven or braked from the hub is
>far more likely to result in problems that interfere with. . .riding.
>
>Ted

A long time ago a friend of mine rode a wheel with radial spokes on
the right side and 4 cross on the left; Bullseye hub. After some use
the right side flange disbonded from the hub shell. When he
accelerated, the right side spokes got tighter and pulled the rim
against the brake pads! Bullseye repaired the hub for free, and told
him to cross the spokes next time.

A long time ago a different friend of mine rode a wheel with radial
spokes on the right side and 4 cross on the left; Normandy high flange
hub. After some use the right side flange got "ahead" of the left side
flange; the hub shell was twisted. The right side spokes got tighter
and pulled the rim against the brake pads! He replaced the hub and
crossed the spokes that time.

Moral of the stories: hubs that can take it can take it; hubs that
can't, can't.

 

[David Damerell]

begin quoting Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>:
>Even with these cheap tools, it would have been cheaper to get a good
>wheelsmith to build them for me, which was the point of my post.
>Unless you're going into the business, building your own wheels is a
>vanity project.

I've comfortably recovered the cost of trueing stand, tools, and the Book;
I've done more than a few wheels for friends and relatives. It adds up.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!

 

[Mark Hickey]

David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>begin quoting Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>:
>>Even with these cheap tools, it would have been cheaper to get a good
>>wheelsmith to build them for me, which was the point of my post.
>>Unless you're going into the business, building your own wheels is a
>>vanity project.
>
>I've comfortably recovered the cost of trueing stand, tools, and the Book;
>I've done more than a few wheels for friends and relatives. It adds up.

If knitting can be considered a viable hobby, wheelbuilding certainly
can too. I can remember dark days when I had to take wheels into the
shop for work... bleaaahhhh...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Weisse Luft]

If you try radial left, crossed right, you need to use a hub that has a large diameter spool between the flanges. Old style small diameter shafts are NOT sufficiently stiff and you WILL ruin the hub.

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:56:11 -0700, Mark Hickey
<[email protected]> wrote:

>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>begin quoting Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>:
>>>Even with these cheap tools, it would have been cheaper to get a good
>>>wheelsmith to build them for me, which was the point of my post.
>>>Unless you're going into the business, building your own wheels is a
>>>vanity project.
>>
>>I've comfortably recovered the cost of trueing stand, tools, and the Book;
>>I've done more than a few wheels for friends and relatives. It adds up.
>
>If knitting can be considered a viable hobby, wheelbuilding certainly
>can too. I can remember dark days when I had to take wheels into the
>shop for work... bleaaahhhh...
>
>Mark Hickey
>Habanero Cycles
>http://www.habcycles.com
>Home of the $695 ti frame

Dear Mark,

And while they won't let you take knitting needles onto an
airplane now, they might let you take a wheel and a truing
stand.

I have a happy vision of Jobst busily truing wheels on a 747
heading from California to the Alps.

Carl Fogel

 

[Pete Biggs]

Kinky Cowboy wrote:
> I used the cheap Minoura kit which
> includes a folding table top truing stand and folding dish tool. Even
> with these cheap tools, it would have been cheaper to get a good
> wheelsmith to build them for me, which was the point of my post.
>
> Unless you're going into the business, building your own wheels is a
> vanity project.

That equipment is also useful for truing wheels and replacing rims. It
will save money in the long run, as well as enabling you to build
different and better wheels than an average pro builder would provide.

~PB

 

[Kinky Cowboy]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:39:06 -0000, "Pete Biggs"
<pwrinkledgrape{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

>Kinky Cowboy wrote:
>> I used the cheap Minoura kit which
>> includes a folding table top truing stand and folding dish tool. Even
>> with these cheap tools, it would have been cheaper to get a good
>> wheelsmith to build them for me, which was the point of my post.
>>
>> Unless you're going into the business, building your own wheels is a
>> vanity project.
>
>That equipment is also useful for truing wheels and replacing rims. It
>will save money in the long run, as well as enabling you to build
>different and better wheels than an average pro builder would provide.
>
>~PB
>

I don't think I'm ever going to build better wheels than a pro - after
all, at most I'll build one pair per year, the wheel builder at my LBS
might do several per day. As for different - if the pro won't build
them, that's probably a good enough reason for me not to. But above
all, compared with the amount of time I have to put into it, getting
the pro to do it is just plain cheap, and Hilaire Belloc probably had
it right when he wrote:

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan.

When getting somebody else to do it is both better and cheaper (in the
sense that I can earn more money doing what I'm good at for the time
I'd spend building the wheels than I have to pay the pro), all that's
left is vanity.
Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

 

[H. Guy]

In article <1104492419.b98ba834f3e9a970a2adf6cc69d37553@teranews>,
Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:


> When getting somebody else to do it is both better and cheaper (in the
> sense that I can earn more money doing what I'm good at for the time
> I'd spend building the wheels than I have to pay the pro), all that's
> left is vanity.

well, that's true if i were to spend that time "doing what i'm good at",
but if i were to have otherwise spent that time, say, watching a
television show, or reading the morning paper (which is of course a
vanity project, given that professional news anchors do it much better)
then building myself is certainly cheaper.

i've had "professionally built" wheels disintegrate within a thousand
miles of being built. no such problem with my vanity-built wheels.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Sheldon writes about somebody-<< I strongly disagree. Self-reliance is not
"vanity." >><BR><BR>

After the dude said-<< Unless you're going into the business, building your own
wheels is a
> vanity project. >><BR><BR>

I agree completely with Sheldon. Most all of us in the 'biz' started by
building wheels for ourselves.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Larry-<< Forgive the neophyte question, but doesn't longer spokes
on the left & shorter on the right help equalize tension? >><BR><BR>

Not really. I assume you mean a 'low-high' hub with the large flange on the
left? tension is tension and if the spokes are 5-6mm shorter, the tension isn't
going to be different.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Pete-<< It
will save money in the long run, as well as enabling you to build
different and better wheels than an average pro builder would provide.
>><BR><BR>

I say-you must have had bad experiences with a 'pro builder' then. I will
admit, 'pro' wrenches, like those on a team, are often poor but those of us
that build wheels for a living, and have to keep the customer happy, HAVE to
make reliable, well designed wheels.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Pete Biggs]

Kinky Cowboy wrote:

>> That equipment is also useful for truing wheels and replacing rims.
>> It will save money in the long run, as well as enabling you to build
>> different and better wheels than an average pro builder would
>> provide.
>
> I don't think I'm ever going to build better wheels than a pro - after
> all, at most I'll build one pair per year, the wheel builder at my LBS
> might do several per day.

The pros are quick but you could easily build better if you put the time
in, and you'd be sure the wheel was stress relieved, which is something
you can't be sure your builder is doing properly unless you watch him/her.

I've built better than the average pro-built wheel I've bought and I'm
certainly no master!

> As for different - if the pro won't build
> them, that's probably a good enough reason for me not to. But above
> all, compared with the amount of time I have to put into it, getting
> the pro to do it is just plain cheap,

Yes cost of the initial build may be cheaper, but that's not the end of
the story. A truing stand is worth buying just for rim replacements
alone, I think, which is what I ininitially got mine for, then went on to
build my own wheels from the confidence gained.

> and Hilaire Belloc probably had
> it right when he wrote:
>
> Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
> Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
> It is the business of the wealthy man
> To give employment to the artisan.
>
> When getting somebody else to do it is both better and cheaper (in the
> sense that I can earn more money doing what I'm good at for the time
> I'd spend building the wheels than I have to pay the pro), all that's
> left is vanity.

Cheaper sometimes maybe, not better. Professionals do it for the money.
True amatuers for the love of it. Isn't love better than money?

~PB

 

[Peter Cole]

"Pete Biggs" <pwrinkledgrape{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kinky Cowboy wrote:
> > I used the cheap Minoura kit which
> > includes a folding table top truing stand and folding dish tool. Even
> > with these cheap tools, it would have been cheaper to get a good
> > wheelsmith to build them for me, which was the point of my post.
> >
> > Unless you're going into the business, building your own wheels is a
> > vanity project.
>
> That equipment is also useful for truing wheels and replacing rims. It
> will save money in the long run, as well as enabling you to build
> different and better wheels than an average pro builder would provide.

The only equipment I have is a spoke wrench. I started out just being
interested in truing and replacing spokes, but I found that after "tuning"
my wheels, I rarely needed truing or spoke replacement. I've found that
even swapping rims doesn't really require any special tools, I just dish &
true on the bike.

I find the big advantage to working on my own wheels is that I can "tweak"
the tension, increasing it to the point where my spokes don't unscrew
without increasing it so far that I crack rims. At 235, there isn't as much
distance between those points as there is for a lighter rider.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Pete-<< It
> will save money in the long run, as well as enabling you to build
> different and better wheels than an average pro builder would provide.
>>> <BR><BR>
>
> I say-you must have had bad experiences with a 'pro builder' then. I
> will admit, 'pro' wrenches, like those on a team, are often poor but
> those of us that build wheels for a living, and have to keep the
> customer happy, HAVE to make reliable, well designed wheels.

I stress the *average* pro builder. The average pro-hand-built wheel
I've bought could have been truer and the occasional spoke has broken. Ok
it takes me ages (an embarrassing number of hours), but I can build truer
wheels that never break spokes.

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

Peter Cole wrote:
> The only equipment I have is a spoke wrench. I started out just being
> interested in truing and replacing spokes, but I found that after
> "tuning" my wheels, I rarely needed truing or spoke replacement. I've
> found that even swapping rims doesn't really require any special
> tools, I just dish & true on the bike.

I agree a stand is not essential but it does make the job more pleasant.

~PB