Evangelical Disconnect

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by bkaapcke, Nov 5, 2007.

  1. TheDarkLord

    TheDarkLord New Member

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    What about the many babies that die soon after birth (or even within a couple of years of birth)? They never get a chance to confess their sins, no? Are they given an automatic ticket to heaven? Depending on the answer to this question, aren't they inherently advantaged/disadvantaged compared to the rest of the people?
     


  2. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    There is a get-out-of-jail answer to all these questions. God knows. It is not up to us to question or worry about God's work. Our feeble minds can't possibly understand the majesty and purpose in his work.

    Once you feel the tremendous power of God in your life... you don't question anything. It is real. At least the tremendous feelings are. Faith means => don't question. Just believe. Wonderful.

    The truth may be somewhat ugly and frightening. That doesn't stop it from being the truth. The truth is the truth irrespective of our beliefs. Would you rather believe your dog went to the farm or know the truth?
     
  3. TheDarkLord

    TheDarkLord New Member

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    Well, you probably killed off any debate that could have ensued from these questions... :p
     
  4. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    If you think debate is going to get you anywhere on this subject... I think you're mistaken. Just get up on your soap box or pulpit and deliver your sermon. Hopefully make people think. Once debate starts, forget it... feet become firmly entrenched.

    This debate has been going on in forums for decades, in society for thousands of years, and in here at least for a year. I have learned a bit about spirituality and its benefits as a result. I haven't had a resounding truth revealed that has changed my mind that much. However NNS did make a break through for me by guiding me to start by walking up to the door and ignoring all the weeds in the garden.

    You can only have a debate if both parties are using the same decision matrix.
     
  5. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    Fuck that. Any god who would punish people for not accepting him when he has not given any evidence that he exists must expect people to reject rational thought and reason. He should have just made men unthinking animals in the first place.
     
  6. TheDarkLord

    TheDarkLord New Member

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    Dude, I was joking. Yes, I am well aware of these things which is why I try to never enter these debates. It just becomes a pissing contest, and nobody is going to change their views anyway; so why bother?
     
  7. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus sinned.
    And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus confessed.
     
  8. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    This entire issue is highly subjective.

    What may persuade me to believe in a particular doctrine, may not persuade you to accept that same doctrine.
    Does that mean that your view or my view is invalidated?

    A couple of thoughts : a lot of people follow a particular faith because they have been brought up in that faith by their parents and have broadly accepted the tenets of that faith.
    Also the culture/society of a location which follows a predominant faith probably helps compel people to believe in a particular faith as well.

    I look at followers of other religions and I see, in the way that they live their lives, that they're probably more "christian" than I and many other christians.
    Does the fact that these people follow a different faith exclude them from being saved/going to heaven??

    This subject is a highly complex issue : for example, I watched a broadcast on EWTN (Catholic TV channel).
    A Catholic theologian was explaining the meaning of the passage where Christ walked on water and calmed the seas.
    If you read the biblical passage in question - it is a simple story.
    However this theologian went in to a half hour thesis on the meaning and symbolism of the passage.
    The point being, that there is a lot more complexity with regard to scriptures.
     
  9. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

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    In the bible, Jesus said that WE are all sinnful by nature. He included himself in that passage. It also says that Jesus prayed for the sins of all his people (to include himself).

    As stated in the bible, God sent down his only son (Jesus) to pay for the sins of the world. When preparing for his death, he prayed for the sins of the world (to include his sins).
     
  10. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Incorrect.

    Can you quote from the Bible the pasages in which Jesus is claimed to have sinned.

    Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Son of God and therefore cannot sin.
     
  11. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    With help from Mr. Magoo-gle.


    Mark 10:17-18: "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

    Matthew 19:16-17: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God..."

    Luke 18:18-19: "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

    In Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34, Jesus is called a "gluttonous man and a winebibber" i.e. a glutton and a drunk.

    Conspiracy to steal animals: In Mark 11:2-4, Matt 21:2-3, and Luke 19:30-31, Jesus instructs two of his disciples to go into a village - perhaps Bethany. They were to locate a colt tied up near the entrance, and to return with it. If someone stopped them they were to explain that the Lord had need of it. Otherwise, they were simply to steal the colt without paying for it or obtaining permission.

    Prejudice based on race or nationality: Matthew 15:22-28 describes an incident between Jesus and a Canaanite woman. Mark 7:25-30 describes the same incident, identifying her as Greek/Syrophenician. One commentary on the Bible explains that "The inhabitants of this area were racially and linguistically connected with the ancient Canaanites."

    She begged Jesus to cure her daughter who was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she. Jesus cruelly replied to the desperate mother that it was not right for him "to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs." i.e. it is not appropriate to take the Gospel, which was intended only for the Jews, and offer it to Gentiles as well -- here described as sub-humans, as dogs. Here, Jesus was following the behavior of other observant Jews in the 1st century AD who would frequently refer to Gentiles contemptuously as "dogs." She quipped back to Jesus that even the "dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Jesus relented and, from a distance, cured the daughter of demonic possession because of the mother's faith.

    The sin in this case was to treat a person of another race and/or nationality as sub-human, by referring to them as a dog.

    There are also cases of him contravening Jewish Law (working on the Sabbath... also him and his disciples eating without washing hands, entering the Temple in Jerusalem and kicking over the vendors' property). It could be argued that Jewish Law was wrong... but they were considered sins in their day.
     
  12. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    None of the passages that you have listed show that Jesus Christ sinned.

    In Christian teaching, Jesus Christ is regarded as the Son of God, a divine being made man.
    In Christian teaching the fact that Jesus was made man, doesn't corrupt the divinity of His being and therefore means that He was without sin.
    The Holy Trinity, three persons in the One God (a very difficult concept to explain, much less understand), holds that Jesus, along with His Father and the Holy Spirit, are the One God.

    If one holds that Christian teaching is incontrovertible, as synper does, then he must also hold that Jesus, as per Christian teaching, was without sin.
     
  13. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    How could Jesus be quoted in three separate Gospels as saying that he is not good, only God is good... if he was without sin, and the Son of God? Not good implies that he was at least partially bad, at least not "good" like God. How can you be partially bad and have not sinned? I suppose you could argue that he kept out of trouble, but didn't do many "good" deeds? But Jesus' message in that passage has implications that he was separate from God.

    This is the quoted word of Jesus Christ himself. Aren't the Gospels the basis of Christianity?

    Isn't the claim that Jesus is the Son of God mostly a contrivance by Paul? Jesus hardly mentions it, if at all, in his teaching AFAIK.

    Either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't. One can't cherry pick which pasages are real and which are fiction. The examples above show examples of Jesus breaking laws and sinning? Unless initially refusing care to a woman based on her ethnicity is not a sin? Or stealing horses is not a sin?


    Actually... forget it Lim. I keep saying these arguments are pointless, than getting into them again.
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    On the face of it, there appears to be a contradiction.
    The word sin is not used in the Bible in reference to Jesus having ever sinned.
    Does Jesus stating that only God is good - mean that Jesus is "not good"?
    I think that is quite a leap.
    Especially when you couple that theory with the tenet of Christianity which says that Jesus is the Son of God and is, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, man and God.

    Complex stuff.





    I agree these discussions are pointless because the issues are complex, the concepts of divinity, three persons in the one God, nature of Jesus ministry are all issues of debate yesterday/today/tomorrow.

    Throw in the fact that neither of us are theologians either...........

    Might be easier to figure out the UCI!
     
  15. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I agree

    In short, if Jesus Christ was a sinner than the whole basis of Christianity is false. If a sinner could die for the sins of others than God would have just picked someone already on earth, but Jesus came as the "spotless lamb" as a sacrifice for all mankind that will accept Him as Lord and be forgiven.

    One either believes or doesn't believe.
    I didn't believe until God opened my spiritual eyes later in life and now that I do believe (because I am a witness to my own life and what has happened to me since) no argument will sway my opinion and no argument before I accepted Christ as my savior changed my opinion either. The Lord divinely intervened in my life and that is what changed my views so I am in agreement after watching forum debates for years that I have never seen these discussions change anyone's views from a humanistic discussion.

    My one comment :)
     
  16. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    The happiest people I have ever met have been "filled with the love of Jesus Christ". They were like charisma magnets, their happiness was so evident. I understand that faith can move mountains. I have also experienced at times in my life the positive effects of prayer. I am envious of your peace and happiness as well, Felt.

    It's just the beliefs I have to convince myself of, to have faith, that is the stumbling block for me.
     
  17. garage sale GT

    garage sale GT New Member

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    No, they aren't. The basis of Christianity is the teaching of the Lord which he gave to St. Peter and his fellow Apostles. The first of the New Testament was not written until some 12 years after the crucifixion, and the last was written some 40 years after that. Various letters were written to various congregations throughout the Roman world.

    Various other things were written about the Lord which did not meet with widespread acceptance with those who knew his teachings.

    The Bible as we know it today came into existence at the council of Carthage in A.D. 397, although its content had been roughly decided before then. The Bible stayed the same after that until the time of Luther, who decided to take several books out.

    The Lord to our knowledge never wrote any scripture, and scripture says he commanded his apostles to teach but never told them to write a book. Christianity is a product of the memory of the Lord's teachings passed on by his followers, speaking materially.
     
  18. garage sale GT

    garage sale GT New Member

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    When did Jesus say he wasn't God? :confused:
     
  19. garage sale GT

    garage sale GT New Member

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    "For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil.

    The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners."

    Way to change the meaning!

    You can't please certain critics.
     
  20. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    The other issue with quoting the Bible concerns language.


    The meaning and emphasis of words spoken between AD 27 and AD 30 (the time of Jesus ministry), then recorded (by whom/when) into Hebrew/Aramaic.
    Those same words, years/centuries later are translated in to Greek, and in the centuries following that are translated in to Latin, and still centuries later finally translated in to English and many other different languages, presents another set of difficulties.

    Words that have a meaning and emphasis/title in one language - get lost or mangled when translated and subsequently retranslated at later stages in to more languages.
     
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