WTF? Sword wheeling?? Its "sword wielding" you jerk.Crankyfeet said:
See Bro, this is an example of why Aussie's can never be smart.
Evangelical Disconnect
- Thread starter bkaapcke
- Start date
See Bro, this is an example of why Aussie's can never be smart.
I guess you need to ask youself if Christ would have been ok with the crusades etc..And then ask the man that "invented" Islam (and had several wives including a 13 year old )if he would approve of 911. No and yes. The failures of individuals to act properly and the failure in doctrine are separate issues. I dont believe that Islam is a peacefull religion. ....If we have spelling police now , I better stop here.Bro Deal said:
It doesn't matter what people claim they believe. It only matters how they actually behave. Despite all that Marxists claimed to believe, the reality turned out quite a bit different. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have murderous histories that continue to this day. They are bad fruit from a poisoned tree.Billsworld said:
Peoples actual beliefs are reflected in what they do. Watch what they do and you can infer their beliefs and thoughts from that. The 'professed' belief is just what they want you to hear. The sales hype, spin or operative delusion.
This is why I think the history of christian behavior completely damns the creed. Either the creed leads them to commit the bad behavior, or it has no salutory effect on their behavior. In both cases, the creed is just yesterdays garbage that should be thrown out before the reek becomes unbearable. bk
This is why I think the history of christian behavior completely damns the creed. Either the creed leads them to commit the bad behavior, or it has no salutory effect on their behavior. In both cases, the creed is just yesterdays garbage that should be thrown out before the reek becomes unbearable. bk
A while back I raised the point that a lot of christlian charity doesn't count for much in the sense that it often doesn't add up to 'good works'. This met with some objection fron the christlians, and I didn't go into it much more.
My point is this; most of the time, gathering souls for the lord is the main objective. The 'charity' of feeding the poor becomes an incidental, tax deductible, cost of being in the business of gathering souls.
With the wrong motive, the so called charity becomes empty and meaningless. It won't get you any points. Kind of like living a good life and doing good works, but not believing. Standard doctrine holds that this will not get you into heaven.
Of course, the poor appreciate the food, but they aren't going to tell you they want it 'to go' because they don't want to hear the scripture that comes with it. People everywhere understand that if a man offers to share his food, you don't tell him you'd rather not eat it in his kitchen.
Then there is a cultural arrogance aspect to the thing. To go into third world countries and help them get crops going and all that, but add a strong suggestion that they give up their own traditions and religion is just over the top. What you're saying is; Our religion is better, and we have the food to prove it. Well, you have no proof that yours is better.
It's all a big game to score points with god, to be cashed in when arriving at the pearly gates. The motives set the tone, and thereby discount the actions. bk
My point is this; most of the time, gathering souls for the lord is the main objective. The 'charity' of feeding the poor becomes an incidental, tax deductible, cost of being in the business of gathering souls.
With the wrong motive, the so called charity becomes empty and meaningless. It won't get you any points. Kind of like living a good life and doing good works, but not believing. Standard doctrine holds that this will not get you into heaven.
Of course, the poor appreciate the food, but they aren't going to tell you they want it 'to go' because they don't want to hear the scripture that comes with it. People everywhere understand that if a man offers to share his food, you don't tell him you'd rather not eat it in his kitchen.
Then there is a cultural arrogance aspect to the thing. To go into third world countries and help them get crops going and all that, but add a strong suggestion that they give up their own traditions and religion is just over the top. What you're saying is; Our religion is better, and we have the food to prove it. Well, you have no proof that yours is better.
It's all a big game to score points with god, to be cashed in when arriving at the pearly gates. The motives set the tone, and thereby discount the actions. bk
The Bible instructs Christians to do so. It also says to visit prisoners and care for widows and orphans etc... The evangelizing that takes place is only a part of what outreach is supposed to be. Often it is put on the backburner in place of more imediate survival needs of people . My Church devotes a fair amout of time collecting food for local food banks and such. The food banks provide us a list of desired item and we attempt to fill the list. Tons and tons of food and clothes are collected with no follow up from us. This is also separate from Church funds and or giving.bkaapcke said:
Why am I not allowed to help people for the sake of my own spiritual development?bkaapcke said:
What on earth do YOU do that's so good, o man of purest motives?
Karma Police, I've given all I can, it's not enough...........
Disclaimer: I do not claim Mr. Yorke's song was written in support of Christians. For all I know he had us in mind as a target.
It is better done at by the Federal Govt. Of course they seize the money at gunpoint and 90% of the money gets used by the machine that distributes the "charity" but there is certainly no spiritual message attached. Ahh yes April 15th is coming. I am grumpybkaapcke said:
bk --
gotta agree w/ u about the forcing faith on the poor bit.
it's almost like they're 'ticket-punching' when they do this, and that's NOT gonna impress our Creator. in fact, if you're driving past the homeless guy on the corner to catch that flight overseas to feed the poor starvelings in Africa, you've missed the boat already. it doesn't MATTER why he's homeless; we've all made dumb choices, and some suffer from dumb choices more than others. if you refuse to help someone because they're not 'down and out enough', or maybe they're not as pathetic in a photo op, then your 'offering' of help to someone else will be rejected!
most people, whether here or there, will be mostly indifferent to your 'message', instead more focused on what you're gonna do for them. just give your help, your best one-liner, say, maybe, "Messiah loves you, too," and call it a day. if they want more, they'll come to YOU.
just don't get me started on the christian church's infrastructure....
gotta agree w/ u about the forcing faith on the poor bit.
it's almost like they're 'ticket-punching' when they do this, and that's NOT gonna impress our Creator. in fact, if you're driving past the homeless guy on the corner to catch that flight overseas to feed the poor starvelings in Africa, you've missed the boat already. it doesn't MATTER why he's homeless; we've all made dumb choices, and some suffer from dumb choices more than others. if you refuse to help someone because they're not 'down and out enough', or maybe they're not as pathetic in a photo op, then your 'offering' of help to someone else will be rejected!
most people, whether here or there, will be mostly indifferent to your 'message', instead more focused on what you're gonna do for them. just give your help, your best one-liner, say, maybe, "Messiah loves you, too," and call it a day. if they want more, they'll come to YOU.
just don't get me started on the christian church's infrastructure....
We have encountered the atheism gap. If you assume Christianity isn't good for anything except earthly charity, you've more or less already assumed that it's all a scam.
If you knew the true source of the christian church today, you wouldn't question whether it's a scam.garage sale GT said:
Do your own research:
Council of Nicea
Mithra
Gilgamesh
Horus
See if there aren't some disturbing similarities.
Dear Christian
>Who/what created God?
>If God created the world with Adam and Eve some 6,000 -10,000 years ago... why did he send his "son" down to earth with a different message from the Old testament some 4,000 - 8,000 years after Adam?
>Why did Jesus perish only three days after entering Jerusalem? Surely if he had waited a couple of months, he may have converted more people to his message.
>Why did Jesus die at all when staying alive would have achieved so much more in terms of people hearing his message?
>Why do some Christians persecute the Jews for killing Jesus, when that was supposedly God's/Jesus' plan in any case?
>Please explain dinosaurs and fossils dating back hundreds of millions of years if the earth is only 10,000 years old?
>If Christianity is the truth and the only path to heaven, how come a significant majority of the world's population haven't hardly come into contact with it?
>Why were the Gospels not documented until 40 plus years after Jesus' death?
>Why were 76 of the 80 or so Gospels left out of the New Testament?
>What body/mind do we have when we go to heaven? If we are ugly on earth, are we ugly in heaven? Disabled, old, or just a little baby when we expire on earth... are we then also like that in heaven?
>How come 99% of kids born into Christian families become Christian, and 99% of kids born into Moslem families become Islamic?
>Why did Jesus perform miracles? Did he want to impress people with magic and convert them to Christian faith by this method? Wasn't it a bit unfair for God to heal a few people and ignore most of the rest?
>If it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich person to go to heaven, why do so many Christians and Christian Evangelist Preachers and leaders acquire so much wealth and consider it virtuous?
>Why does the Catholic Church dictate that Priests must be celibate, but in Africa they waive the rule otherwise they wouldn't be able to recruit any Priests?
>How can the Pope make an edict that the world is the center of the universe approximately 500 years ago (then the Catholic Church later rescind it) if the Pope is infallible and the closest person to God?
>Did Jesus masturbate?
>If we are made in God's image, why does God have to eat and **** all the time like us? That seems like an unecessary mess if you were designing it from scratch. Why doesn't God and us have wings like a bird that make us able to fly? Being able to fly is cool.
>Is God a man?
>Why does God get angry as documented in the Old Testament? Isn't anger an emotion that is manifested when one loses control of a situation?
>Why are different people born into different environments that make some more likely to sin than others?
>If homosexuals are born that way, why would God do that?
>Why are Christian heterosexuals worried about homosexuality and consider it evil? Do they think it is an evil, sinful temptation for themselves?
>Why would God put 40% of the world's people (those exposed to Christianity) through a life test of will on earth for anything from 1 sec (babies dying at birth) to 100 or so years to determine if you live in bliss with him or agony with the Devil for the next 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years then multiply that by 1,000,000 then you haven't even experienced 0.00001% of "Forever and ever".
>How did Noah fit all the animals of the world on the ark? How did he herd those from other continents like Australia? How did the flood cover the whole earth? Where did the water come from? Where did it go? Why did God choose such a convoluted way to rid the earth of sinful human life, killing most of the innocent animals at the same time? Why didn't he just snap his fingers? As the flood waters rose... why didn't the people climb up the mountain? Or did the water cover all the highest mountains???
>Why did God do a lot of miracles and reveal himself to man a lot in the Old Testament, but he hasn't seemed to have done much revealing in more recent history when the questions seem more perplexing and Christian beliefs more in conflict with knowledge and reality?
>Why do we need to go to church regularly?
>Why is it when something positive happens, like a life is miraculously saved, it's a Godly miracle, but then there is so much other pain and suffering and tragedy in the world for seemingly no reason? Is God also a sadist?
>Why do Christians get upset when their loved ones die and go to heaven? Would they rather have their loved ones living on sinful, painful earth (for selfish reasons)?
>Is the Devil/Satan a God? Is he as powerful as God? Obviously God can't destroy him. Who/what created Satan?
>Is heaven a place where marginally sinful things like sex, parties, boozing, etc. never happen? Are people all living like monks there?
>Why are there so many different forms of Christianity? Surely God's/Jesus' word is not ambiguous?
These are just some questions I struggle with on my path to enlightenment and faith.
>Who/what created God?
>If God created the world with Adam and Eve some 6,000 -10,000 years ago... why did he send his "son" down to earth with a different message from the Old testament some 4,000 - 8,000 years after Adam?
>Why did Jesus perish only three days after entering Jerusalem? Surely if he had waited a couple of months, he may have converted more people to his message.
>Why did Jesus die at all when staying alive would have achieved so much more in terms of people hearing his message?
>Why do some Christians persecute the Jews for killing Jesus, when that was supposedly God's/Jesus' plan in any case?
>Please explain dinosaurs and fossils dating back hundreds of millions of years if the earth is only 10,000 years old?
>If Christianity is the truth and the only path to heaven, how come a significant majority of the world's population haven't hardly come into contact with it?
>Why were the Gospels not documented until 40 plus years after Jesus' death?
>Why were 76 of the 80 or so Gospels left out of the New Testament?
>What body/mind do we have when we go to heaven? If we are ugly on earth, are we ugly in heaven? Disabled, old, or just a little baby when we expire on earth... are we then also like that in heaven?
>How come 99% of kids born into Christian families become Christian, and 99% of kids born into Moslem families become Islamic?
>Why did Jesus perform miracles? Did he want to impress people with magic and convert them to Christian faith by this method? Wasn't it a bit unfair for God to heal a few people and ignore most of the rest?
>If it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich person to go to heaven, why do so many Christians and Christian Evangelist Preachers and leaders acquire so much wealth and consider it virtuous?
>Why does the Catholic Church dictate that Priests must be celibate, but in Africa they waive the rule otherwise they wouldn't be able to recruit any Priests?
>How can the Pope make an edict that the world is the center of the universe approximately 500 years ago (then the Catholic Church later rescind it) if the Pope is infallible and the closest person to God?
>Did Jesus masturbate?
>If we are made in God's image, why does God have to eat and **** all the time like us? That seems like an unecessary mess if you were designing it from scratch. Why doesn't God and us have wings like a bird that make us able to fly? Being able to fly is cool.
>Is God a man?
>Why does God get angry as documented in the Old Testament? Isn't anger an emotion that is manifested when one loses control of a situation?
>Why are different people born into different environments that make some more likely to sin than others?
>If homosexuals are born that way, why would God do that?
>Why are Christian heterosexuals worried about homosexuality and consider it evil? Do they think it is an evil, sinful temptation for themselves?
>Why would God put 40% of the world's people (those exposed to Christianity) through a life test of will on earth for anything from 1 sec (babies dying at birth) to 100 or so years to determine if you live in bliss with him or agony with the Devil for the next 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years then multiply that by 1,000,000 then you haven't even experienced 0.00001% of "Forever and ever".
>How did Noah fit all the animals of the world on the ark? How did he herd those from other continents like Australia? How did the flood cover the whole earth? Where did the water come from? Where did it go? Why did God choose such a convoluted way to rid the earth of sinful human life, killing most of the innocent animals at the same time? Why didn't he just snap his fingers? As the flood waters rose... why didn't the people climb up the mountain? Or did the water cover all the highest mountains???
>Why did God do a lot of miracles and reveal himself to man a lot in the Old Testament, but he hasn't seemed to have done much revealing in more recent history when the questions seem more perplexing and Christian beliefs more in conflict with knowledge and reality?
>Why do we need to go to church regularly?
>Why is it when something positive happens, like a life is miraculously saved, it's a Godly miracle, but then there is so much other pain and suffering and tragedy in the world for seemingly no reason? Is God also a sadist?
>Why do Christians get upset when their loved ones die and go to heaven? Would they rather have their loved ones living on sinful, painful earth (for selfish reasons)?
>Is the Devil/Satan a God? Is he as powerful as God? Obviously God can't destroy him. Who/what created Satan?
>Is heaven a place where marginally sinful things like sex, parties, boozing, etc. never happen? Are people all living like monks there?
>Why are there so many different forms of Christianity? Surely God's/Jesus' word is not ambiguous?
These are just some questions I struggle with on my path to enlightenment and faith.
Here is my response to the original thread/posting.
Anyone who thinks that they can “buy” their way into heaven or God’s grace is sadly mistaken.
I think that your friend should have been a little clearer in his statement about being a sinner and being saved. You are simply not saved by acknowledging that God exists and even worshiping God. Many people go to church on a regular basis and are not Christians.
In order to be saved you have to accept God into your heart, surrender your soul to him, and be willing to try and change. The bible is very clear that EVERYONE is a sinner. Yes, even Jesus confessed his sins. What saves a person, in God’s eye, is the acknowledgement of a person’s sin, the confession of their sins, and the person’s willingness to try to change. If your friend has gone through this, and lives his life by those basic principals, the he is saved.
Those organizations that go out and minister to the people don’t force anything on them. The one’s that do, are NOT doing the work of God. It isn’t a matter of forcing anything on anyone. What it boils down to, is the person being ministered to has to want to change. Look at yourself, if I tried to force you to do something that you were uncomfortable with, or felt wrong doing, you probably wouldn’t do it. It’s all up to you.
I can’t force you to want to make these changes. Most people are too afraid to admit their sin and accept responsibility for them in the first place. What I can do for you is tell you about God, try to show you what he did for you, and pray for you. After that, it’s all up to you.
Mark
Anyone who thinks that they can “buy” their way into heaven or God’s grace is sadly mistaken.
I think that your friend should have been a little clearer in his statement about being a sinner and being saved. You are simply not saved by acknowledging that God exists and even worshiping God. Many people go to church on a regular basis and are not Christians.
In order to be saved you have to accept God into your heart, surrender your soul to him, and be willing to try and change. The bible is very clear that EVERYONE is a sinner. Yes, even Jesus confessed his sins. What saves a person, in God’s eye, is the acknowledgement of a person’s sin, the confession of their sins, and the person’s willingness to try to change. If your friend has gone through this, and lives his life by those basic principals, the he is saved.
Those organizations that go out and minister to the people don’t force anything on them. The one’s that do, are NOT doing the work of God. It isn’t a matter of forcing anything on anyone. What it boils down to, is the person being ministered to has to want to change. Look at yourself, if I tried to force you to do something that you were uncomfortable with, or felt wrong doing, you probably wouldn’t do it. It’s all up to you.
I can’t force you to want to make these changes. Most people are too afraid to admit their sin and accept responsibility for them in the first place. What I can do for you is tell you about God, try to show you what he did for you, and pray for you. After that, it’s all up to you.
Mark
And put your head in the sand it seems about the 50 or so inconsistencies/illogic/contradictions that are the foundations of your creed that I just touched on above. Why waste all these good feelings that eminate from your belief and faith by facing and answering tough questions for yourself. Just go with your feelings and instincts and ignore anything that is uncomfortable.
I envy somewhat the happiness that is obviously felt by those with faith in God. I don't envy the willingness to avoid tough questions. But I can't sacrifice my judgment of truth and sense for what feels good. The questions I put forth in my above post are all based on what occurs in today's world and what is told in the Bible. They aren't twisted.
If I really really believed that an angel followed me wherever I went, and looked after me, and gave me strength, and loved me, it would give me happiness and strength. But to me it would be a fabrication, so it would be impossible for me to believe in it.
I envy somewhat the happiness that is obviously felt by those with faith in God. I don't envy the willingness to avoid tough questions. But I can't sacrifice my judgment of truth and sense for what feels good. The questions I put forth in my above post are all based on what occurs in today's world and what is told in the Bible. They aren't twisted.
If I really really believed that an angel followed me wherever I went, and looked after me, and gave me strength, and loved me, it would give me happiness and strength. But to me it would be a fabrication, so it would be impossible for me to believe in it.
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