Evidence for God
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Again, you seem to be talking about some other Christian Bible. The Bible I have states quite clearly that ALL people are sinners, hence the need for a Savior. That's the whole point. God set the standard, nobody follows it, He gave the remedy.bkaapcke said:
The Bible SAYS that following the moral code (the "law") will not work:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those under the law, so that every mouth will be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ.
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. Romans chapter 3
And the revered apostle Paul goes on in chapter 7 to talk about the struggle even Christians face with sin...
So I find this law at work: when I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God --through Jesus Christ our Lord!
..through Christ the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
The atheists are the ones who keep posting "I'm a good person, I'm a good person." A true Christian clings to the cross as his only hope to be right with God because he knows his behavior is the problem!
NNS1400, Your argument as to why 2,000 years of bad behavior by christians 'doesn't count' is ingenious, complex and intriguing. It displays a determination that is usually found only among the most strident zealots. In the age of debating how many angels could fit on the head of a pin, you would have done well.
However, there is a much simpler explanation for the horrid behavior of christians over the millenia. It goes like this; Christianity, and its foundational book, the bible, are false things. There is no need to say any more. bk
However, there is a much simpler explanation for the horrid behavior of christians over the millenia. It goes like this; Christianity, and its foundational book, the bible, are false things. There is no need to say any more. bk
Ah, bk, you made me laugh this morning. My "ingenious, complex, and intriguing" argument is Christianity 101. I didn't come up with it. ( I also prefer to think of myself as a charming zealot, not a strident one.bkaapcke said:NNS1400, Your argument as to why 2,000 years of bad behavior by christians 'doesn't count' is ingenious, complex and intriguing. It displays a determination that is usually found only among the most strident zealots. In the age of debating how many angels could fit on the head of a pin, you would have done well.
However, there is a much simpler explanation for the horrid behavior of christians over the millenia. It goes like this; Christianity, and its foundational book, the bible, are false things. There is no need to say any more. bk
)Your simplistic and boring argument against Christianity however always comes back to Crusades and witch burnings. Oh, and "we" won't let you marry your boyfriend. Does that cover it?
Please explain the good behavior of Christians then. Here's a recent example: My family went through Hurricane Katrina. Who do you think did most of the aid efforts down there? FEMA? No. Red Cross? No. They were there, of course, but the majority of cleaning up and helping and feeding and consoling and caring for was done by totally ordinary people who came from all over the country in their little church vans and buses, sleeping in tents for weeks at a time in 100 degree heat. They used their own money, their own vacation time, to help total strangers in need.
They fed my parents, gave them water and ice, helped get debris out of their yard, painted. Their house was still standing, so my Christian parents sheltered a transvestite for two weeks whose roof was gone and his house was flooded.
A group came in and mucked out what was left of my uncle's house and helped my aunt pick through the mud and clean up what little she had left. Then this group of strangers gave them $5,000 cash to help them out. And they moved on to someone else.
This is still going on in New Orleans and Mississippi. Hundreds of Christians with nothing to gain, giving of themselves in order to serve their Lord. Because they are zealots who actually follow the Bible.
Well, it's time for church. I'm off to pray for you.
What about the catholic and evangelicals ongoing attempt to commit genocide in Africa. The missionaries are running around telling the Africans not to use condoms 'because it is a sin'. Net effect; Anyone foolish enough to listen is in danger of getting AIDS. Yeah, Y'all better be praying, your horrible behavior never ends. The cross is the sign of the house of evil. Ask any victim of pedophile priests. Of course, you can't ask the African AIDS victims. bk
Well, you're right, of course. I've been thinking about all of the evil Christian institutions and legacy we would be so much better off without, like the horrible Salvation Army, the disgusting Red Cross, the abominable abolitionist movement, the reprehensible YMCA, the evil Martin Luther King, Jr.bkaapcke said:
Though I actually can ask some African AIDS victims, because of shockingly evil missionaries I know who are working in medical clinics and orphanages caring for these victims and their children. Or maybe I could write to one of the children sponsored by my school who is part of the wicked Compassion International program. Or by the people at that viper's nest called World Vision.
The only problem is that you have chosen a world view and belief system that actually renders you incapable of calling other people evil. There is no moral law, remember? Your world view doesn't allow for any true justice where pedophile priests are concerned. Mine does.
Whoops, I forgot some more of the wickedness the world is forced to endure as the result of Christianity -- the founding of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, Washington University, oh, and every single hospital in the major city I live in. Nauseating...bkaapcke said:
Can't blame the victilms for their 'deviant behavior'? There you go with that widely known 'christian moral condemnation' thing. The one thing we do know, and which is clearly demonstrated in this thread, is that christians are great at dishing out the moral condemnation, but they sure can't take it when their behavior is in question. Attempted genocide. That's what it is. Your fellow christian missionaries, and the instititions that support them, are guilty. bk
So God designs Man. Every man makes him real angry cause they decide to sin with their "free will". So he takes about 6000 years to send down a "saviour" who, to this day, has only managed to spread his message to less than half the world's population. And what was that whole "saviour/martyr" thing about anyway. Just seems like a bunch of followers trying to make sense of the fact that their guy spends only a weekend in Jerusalem before he's nailed to the cross. Would've been far better IMHO if he'd stayed longer and really built a following (ignoring the debate over his "divineness").
nns1400 said:
"A true Christian clings to the cross as his only hope to be right with God because he knows his behavior is the problem."
Are we to assume that if he does so, he can achieve salvation, despite a record of behavior that is far worse than average? Sounds like a cop out.
I have to admit, if I were creating a religion and I wanted it to be popular, so that the 'tithing take' is ample, this is just the kind of 'sales pitch' I would want to use. Go ahead and sin, just know you are sinning and keep believing (tithing) and all will be ok. Jesus will kiss it and make it better.
What I still don't get, is why belief in the bible has brought us worse behavior than that of average people. And, these average people include many who don't believe in god at all. In short, the book has made things worse. Because it has made things worse, it is inherently suspect. bk
Are we to assume that if he does so, he can achieve salvation, despite a record of behavior that is far worse than average? Sounds like a cop out.
I have to admit, if I were creating a religion and I wanted it to be popular, so that the 'tithing take' is ample, this is just the kind of 'sales pitch' I would want to use. Go ahead and sin, just know you are sinning and keep believing (tithing) and all will be ok. Jesus will kiss it and make it better.
What I still don't get, is why belief in the bible has brought us worse behavior than that of average people. And, these average people include many who don't believe in god at all. In short, the book has made things worse. Because it has made things worse, it is inherently suspect. bk
What Jesus said was, and I am paraphrasing here is: 'Go and sin no more' 'none come to the Father except trhough me'. Paul said that 'if you believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Christ and confess with your mouth that he is your saviour than you will be saved'.bkaapcke said:
So is that all there is to it? No. Jesus also said 'Go out spread the word to expand the kingdom of God' He also said that 'any vine that does not bare fruit will be cut off and cast into the fire' meaning that if you don't live right and work to expand the Kingdom than you don't gain admission to the grand finale.
Jesus is the ultimate example of how one should live. He was strong, self-sacrificing and lived a life of service. He also kicked ass when the occasion waranted.
As horribly corny as it may be, for and introspective individual, WWJD is the ultimate yard stick to measure ones actions, day, life, attitude etc.
I will be the first to point out that the number one reason for atheism in the world is Christians.bkaapcke said:
However, it is neither Christ nor his word, the bible that is the cause but rather the ignorant, sellfish people who lack knowledge or understanding of the bible yet try to hide behind it. It is also the very smart, clever and cunning who don't care what the bible says but use it as a means to a perverted end or to take advantge of the weak and ingorant.
There are a lot of false teachings, lies, misrepresentations and distortions passed off as truth floating around. From my own experience and observation, I have found that most people who speak most criticaly of the bible know little or nothing about it. To be fair, to many people who go to church every Sunday don't know much about it either.
I have also found that most people who loathe/hate/despise Christians have been hurt or treated badly by Christians at some point in the past or they have some aspect of their life that they know is incompatible with scripture. This has certainly true for me.
There are a lot of "Christians" that to this day I passionately dislike and will be quite suprised if they make it to heaven. Honestly, I will be at least a little suprised if I make it.
The bottom line in my view is that you can not let the failure and shortcomings of others be an excuse for you.
It may seem hard to believe but there really are men and women that struggle passionately to adhere to the example of Christ and some of them get close.
I don't know what you belive or why but I sincerely hope that you will see and eventually know someone who truly is a Christian by Christ standard.
Using Christ's teaching as a model to live by is one thing. Any world religion contains much human wisdom. Believing he is the Son of God (or God...Which is it??) is another. That divine elevation that Paul managed to engineer certainly put some high octane into the engine of Christianity's spread. Otherwise he was just another Jewish person complaining about the wrongs of Judaism.
azul_fahrrad said:
Question to the faithful:
God created man in his own image, right. So heaven must be similar to earth in that there are physical objects that you need to walk on (ie require legs) and that you need to pick up (ie require hands and arms). So when a young baby/child dies, do they instantly become an adult form of themselves in heaven, and similarly, when a 100 year old person dies, do they revert to their 25 year old body and mind? Or does everyone get the same body they died with in heaven? Or does everyone get the exact same body as each other?
That would really bum me out if I had to keep even the fit version of me for eternity.
God created man in his own image, right. So heaven must be similar to earth in that there are physical objects that you need to walk on (ie require legs) and that you need to pick up (ie require hands and arms). So when a young baby/child dies, do they instantly become an adult form of themselves in heaven, and similarly, when a 100 year old person dies, do they revert to their 25 year old body and mind? Or does everyone get the same body they died with in heaven? Or does everyone get the exact same body as each other?
That would really bum me out if I had to keep even the fit version of me for eternity.
Another Question to the faithful:
Do the millions of Chinese people never exposed to the Old Testament or Christianity go to heaven or hell when they die?
Do the millions of Chinese people never exposed to the Old Testament or Christianity go to heaven or hell when they die?
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