Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

[swampy1970]

If you read Fignon's autobiography or Robert Millar's biography they both cite 1991 as the turning point in terms of EPO usage and the increase in the peloton's speed. 

Turning point with regards to mass useage of the stuff, or acknowledgement that it was being used, might be accurate but that doesn't explain why Dutch and Belgian riders were dying from the misuse of evening primrose oil *cough*. Velonews's John Wilcockson penned an article entitled in 89 called "EPO the scourge of the 90's". The same teams that had "doctors" that knew about the benefits of traditional autologous transfusions probably already knew about EPO. The Pills, Dope and Medicine team had two riders retire from "heart problems" and one die from suspected EPO use in 1990. The tax fraud invetigation into that team in the mid 90's intimated, but didnt conclusively prove, that this was the case. Their mass exit of the entire team in 1991 from the tour had EPO overdose had team administered systematic use written all over it. EPO has been on the IOC's prohibited list since 1990.

 

[jpwkeeper]

Originally Posted by LMT42 .

That course hasn't been used since. You're ignoring it's grade and length.

Any chance you know what they were?

 

[swampy1970]

I hate it when people say stuff like this.  Don't paint all the cyclists with the same brush, as until ridden a century in their cleats you have no freaking idea how hard that decision can be. Everyone isn't Lance or Jan or Greg or Wiggo or Cavs.  And most of those guys don't command the salary those guys command. How do you think these guys earning low 5-figure salaries, barely enough to support their little family at home in their little house, now faces the reality that he has to dope or he's going to be replaced by someone else who will, which leaves him having spent 20 years chasing a dream that now will never come true, flat broke, having to go home and tell his wife and child that all of their sacrifices were for nothing, that he has to get a job at JCPenny so that they can eat and that they have to sell their little house and move into a little apartment that costs less per year then his bikes used to cost because that is all that they can afford. Or make it simpler; eliminate the family altogether and imagine being 22 years old having worked all your life to get there, pretty much not having a life so you can maintain your inhuman training schedule all for the dream of riding in the pros, only to find out that the dream comes in an IV.  Because 90% of them are doing it and you just can't run with them if you're not, so it's either the dream you've had from childhood and worked towards to the exclusion of everything else, or tossing all of your work of a lifetime over something that everyone else on your team takes as just another part of the job.  When you were 22 could YOU have made that decision?  When I was 22, I knew everything and was freaking indestructable in my own mind, and I wasn't even an athlete.  These guys are 150 pound gods and they know it.

You hate it when people like me say that but here's a snippet from Dave Zabriskie on him taking EPO for the first time:

"It was my choice though. In the end it was me. They didn't put a shotgun to my face, hold me down and stab a needle into my arm. It was coffee table, with me, Johan, Barry and a doctor.

http://m.cyclingnews.com/features/zabriskie-reflects-on-his-past

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


Turning point with regards to mass useage of the stuff, or acknowledgement that it was being used, might be accurate but that doesn't explain why Dutch and Belgian riders were dying from the misuse of evening primrose oil *cough*. Velonews's John Wilcockson penned an article entitled in 89 called "EPO the scourge of the 90's". The same teams that had "doctors" that knew about the benefits of traditional autologous transfusions probably already knew about EPO. The Pills, Dope and Medicine team had two riders retire from "heart problems" and one die from suspected EPO use in 1990. The tax fraud invetigation into that team in the mid 90's intimated, but didnt conclusively prove, that this was the case. Their mass exit of the entire team in 1991 from the tour had EPO overdose had team administered systematic use written all over it.

EPO has been on the IOC's prohibited list since 1990.

Wilcockson is entitled to his opinion.
Funny how he had a blindspot when it came to Armstrong and David Walsh.

If you read Fignon and Millar's biographies, they both suggest that 1990/1991 represented a massive increase in performances.

I remember reading Robert Millar's articles in Cycle Sport 1994-1996 and his referring to riders not even having to breath climbing climbs whereas in his day riders would appear to have to work a lot harder - on the same climbs.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"They were young guys who were ambitious but at the same time naive to the point of being innocent."

What year was it that Tom Simpson died?

 

[SC Shout]

I agree, it is extremely obvious Lemond doped, no one can not ride for 2 years after getting shot then hop on a bike while anemic and win the TDF... 1989 is the year that EPO was approved by the FDA, so you know it was accessible for years before that.

 

[alienator]

I agree, it is extremely obvious Lemond doped, no one can not ride for 2 years after getting shot then hop on a bike while anemic and win the TDF... 1989 is the year that EPO was approved by the FDA, so you know it was accessible for years before that.

Oh, you mean it's obvious if you draw faulty conclusions based on made up beliefs. Other things that were thought to be obvious: everything is made of earth, wind, fire, and water; the Earth is flat; that electrons orbit an atom's nucleus like planets orbit the Sun; bleeding cures illness. I could go on, but it's likely that I've already mentioned a few things already that have sent you reeling.

 

[SC Shout]

Quote: Originally Posted by alienator .


Oh, you mean it's obvious if you draw faulty conclusions based on made up beliefs. Other things that were thought to be obvious: everything is made of earth, wind, fire, and water; the Earth is flat; that electrons orbit an atom's nucleus like planets orbit the Sun; bleeding cures illness. I could go on, but it's likely that I've already mentioned a few things already that have sent you reeling.
Huh? Not sure I follow you, I just don't believe a cyclist that spent 15 years accusing someone else of doping when it is blatantly obvious he doped himself. If you want to believe him more power to you, but I wouldn't trust Lemond's word with a 10 foot pole and most people with half a brain wouldn't either. EPO was prescribed to treat anemia...Lemond was anemic, there wasn't blood testing then so we will never know unless Lemond confesses, which he should...he still won't reveal who his doctor was. Who on this planet can get shot then not ride for 2 years then win the TDF after being anemic? Noone unless your a EPO-doped up Lemond. Lemond won the TDF when EPO was already in the peloton then he later lied about just that to cover it up more. Haven't you learned your lesson yet to not believe a cyclist? Oh well...you won't convince me Lemond was clean, so just get over it? Peace out.

 

[SC Shout]

Quote: Originally Posted by limerickman .
If you read Fignon's autobiography or Robert Millar's biography they both cite 1991 as the turning point in terms of EPO usage and the increase in the peloton's speed.


Rooks and others admitted EPO use since at least 1988 and there were other cases that go back to even earlier in the 80's, but in 1989, the year Lemond came back and won the tdf after being off a bike for 2 years, the drug became FDA approved, so of course it existed in cycling since the mid to late 80's. Greg Lemond is the one that said is wasn't a problem until 1991 LOL

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/468364/epo-use-in-late-80s
"Steven Rooks, winner of the polka dot jersey as best climber in the Tour de France 1988. In a book with the title “The last yellow” written by dutch journalist Mart Smeets and published this week, Rooks admits “Yes I took the epo. It was necessary to arrive among the top riders.” He admits to using it in 1988 in which he won the stage of the Alpe d’Huez at the tour, and he placed second in the general classification behind Pedro Delgado. In the same book, two other Dutch riders of that time, Gert Jakobs and Matthieu Hermans, also admitted to the use of epo."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin#History
"In the 1980s, Adamson, Joseph W. Eschbach, Joan C. Egrie, Michael R. Downing and Jeffrey K. Browne conducted a clinical trial at the Northwest Kidney Centers for a synthetic form of the hormone, Epogen, produced by Amgen. The trial was successful, and the results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine in January 1987.[44]In 1985, Lin et al isolated the human erythropoietin gene from a genomic phage library and were able to characterize it for research and production.[45] Their research demonstrated the gene for erythropoietin encoded the production of EPO in mammalian cells that is biologically active in vitro and in vivo. The industrial production of recombinant human erythropoietin (RhEpo) for treating anemia patients would begin soon after.
In 1989, the US Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone Epogen, which remains in use today."

 

[limerickman]

Quote: Originally Posted by SC Shout .

Rooks and others admitted EPO use since at least 1988 and there were other cases that go back to even earlier in the 80's, but in 1989, the year Lemond came back and won the tdf after being off a bike for 2 years, the drug became FDA approved, so of course it existed in cycling since the mid to late 80's. Greg Lemond is the one that said is wasn't a problem until 1991 LOL

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/468364/epo-use-in-late-80s
"Steven Rooks, winner of the polka dot jersey as best climber in the Tour de France 1988. In a book with the title “The last yellow” written by dutch journalist Mart Smeets and published this week, Rooks admits “Yes I took the epo. It was necessary to arrive among the top riders.” He admits to using it in 1988 in which he won the stage of the Alpe d’Huez at the tour, and he placed second in the general classification behind Pedro Delgado. In the same book, two other Dutch riders of that time, Gert Jakobs and Matthieu Hermans, also admitted to the use of epo."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin#History
"In the 1980s, Adamson, Joseph W. Eschbach, Joan C. Egrie, Michael R. Downing and Jeffrey K. Browne conducted a clinical trial at the Northwest Kidney Centers for a synthetic form of the hormone, Epogen, produced by Amgen. The trial was successful, and the results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine in January 1987.[44]In 1985, Lin et al isolated the human erythropoietin gene from a genomic phage library and were able to characterize it for research and production.[45] Their research demonstrated the gene for erythropoietin encoded the production of EPO in mammalian cells that is biologically active in vitro and in vivo. The industrial production of recombinant human erythropoietin (RhEpo) for treating anemia patients would begin soon after.
In 1989, the US Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone Epogen, which remains in use today."

So Rooks is telling the truth, but Fignon and Millar are lying?

 

[SC Shout]

Quote: Originally Posted by limerickman .
So Rooks is telling the truth, but Fignon and Millar are lying?

Maybe Fignon and Millar didn't know? If you were doping would you tell everyone in the peloton? LOL, the point is, riders have admitted using it since 1988 and earlier.

 

[alienator]

Huh?  Not sure I follow you, I just don't believe a cyclist that spent 15 years accusing someone else of doping when it is blatantly obvious he doped himself.  If you want to believe him more power to you, but I wouldn't trust Lemond's word with a 10 foot pole and most people with half a brain wouldn't either.  EPO was prescribed to treat anemia...Lemond was anemic, there wasn't blood testing then so we will never know unless Lemond confesses, which he should...he still won't reveal who his doctor was.  Who on this planet can get shot then not ride for 2 years then win the TDF after being anemic?  Noone unless your a EPO-doped up Lemond.  Lemond won the TDF when EPO was already in the peloton then he later lied about just that to cover it up more.  Haven't you learned your lesson yet to not believe a cyclist?  Oh well...you won't convince me Lemond was clean, so just get over it?  Peace out.

The beautiful thing about beliefs is that you don't need facts. You can just assume whatever **** you want.

 

[alienator]

Maybe Fignon and Millar didn't know?  If you were doping would you tell everyone in the peloton? LOL, the point is, riders have admitted using it since 1988 and earlier.

Why don't you provide a fact based timeline on the history of EPO, when it became available to the public, and when started being used. You've made claims so you must have all this information somewhere.

 

[limerickman]

Quote: Originally Posted by SC Shout .
Maybe Fignon and Millar didn't know? If you were doping would you tell everyone in the peloton? LOL, the point is, riders have admitted using it since 1988 and earlier.

Didn't know what exactly?

Given that both riders were close to the apex of their respective careers in 1988, I think that they would have both been aware at that point
but you disagree?

And given that they admitted to doping subsequently, their testimony to the use of EPO from 1991 onwards carries a fair level of authority.

 

[SC Shout]

Quote: Originally Posted by limerickman .
Didn't know what exactly?

Given that both riders were close to the apex of their respective careers in 1988, I think that they would have both been aware at that point
but you disagree?

And given that they admitted to doping subsequently, their testimony to the use of EPO from 1991 onwards carries a fair level of authority.

1988 and on is more accurate, it was FDA approved in 1989. 1991 may have been when over half the peloton started using it maybe, but the point is, riders were using it much much earlier. And especially Lemond, it was approved to treat anemia, you don't think he got some? Use your brains? Kinda obvious to me.

 

[limerickman]

Quote: Originally Posted by SC Shout .
1988 and on is more accurate, it was FDA approved in 1989. 1991 may have been when over half the peloton started using it maybe, but the point is, riders were using it much much earlier. And especially Lemond, it was approved to treat anemia, you don't think he got some? Use your brains? Kinda obvious to me.


It's not kinda obvious at all.

As I pointed out to you earlier, Millar and Fignon were close to the apex of their careers in 1988.
Subsequently both have admitted doping in the 1990's.

They didn't dope close to the apex of their careers, but instead doped when they were out of contention of winning?

 

[alienator]

1988 and on is more accurate, it was FDA approved in 1989.  1991 may have been when over half the peloton started using it maybe, but the point is, riders were using it much much earlier.  And especially Lemond, it was approved to treat anemia, you don't think he got some?  Use your brains?  Kinda obvious to me.

I suggest you investigate all the treatment modalities that there are for anemia. You should especially note that EPO is only one, and it is not indicated for all types of anemia. EPO also has risks which can outweigh its benefits. There is absolutely zero indication, logical or otherwise, that LeMond used EPO at all or doped in any other way. You have yet to offer anything concrete.

 

[ozza121]

Interesting what peoples views are post Armstrong being outed as the bully, liar and manipulator that he was.

It's evident that he destroyed Lemond due to the Lemond asking questions that UCI and the world should have been asking.

Maybe a few on here, should be getting stuck into the absolute piece of dirt Armstrong is before looking further a field.

I have no idea about whether Lemond doped or not, interestingly there seems to be no noise from anyone whatsoever (including Walsh), about him doping and in the current era of dopers being outed left right and centre its is an interesting conundrum.

Armstrong for me is the scum of the earth, the way he lied, and destroyed peoples lives is disgusting, Betty and Lemond were destroyed by that piece of scum.

I find it confusing that if Lemond was such a big doper as suggested on here, he wouldn't just keep his mouth shut and his head down, but no he challenged Armstrong, something that no one else was prepared to do.

As for the title of this thread, there seems to be zero evidence that he doped, my view this thread was designed for one thing, and that was to divert attention away from the biggest cheat the world has ever seen.

And yes I loved Armstrong before we all found out the truth

 

[limerickman]

Originally Posted by ozza121
Interesting what peoples views are post Armstrong being outed as the bully, liar and manipulator that he was.

It's evident that he destroyed Lemond due to the Lemond asking questions that UCI and the world should have been asking.

Maybe a few on here, should be getting stuck into the absolute piece of dirt Armstrong is before looking further a field.

I have no idea about whether Lemond doped or not, interestingly there seems to be no noise from anyone whatsoever (including Walsh), about him doping and in the current era of dopers being outed left right and centre its is an interesting conundrum.

Armstrong for me is the scum of the earth, the way he lied, and destroyed peoples lives is disgusting, Betty and Lemond were destroyed by that piece of scum.

I find it confusing that if Lemond was such a big doper as suggested on here, he wouldn't just keep his mouth shut and his head down, but no he challenged Armstrong, something that no one else was prepared to do.

As for the title of this thread, there seems to be zero evidence that he doped, my view this thread was designed for one thing, and that was to divert attention away from the biggest cheat the world has ever seen.

And yes I loved Armstrong before we all found out the truth

Armstrong is the scum of the earth. The BBC are showing documentaries about Armstrong - and the testimony of Tyler Hamilton, the Andreu's, David Walsh, Paul Kimmage, Bob Harmon, Floyd Landis put beyond any doubt whatsoever that Armstrong is scum.

LeMond's contribution to those documentaries is interesting. He said throughout that he wants to see the day when an American rider, riding clean, goes on to exceed his own record.

 

[SC Shout]

Originally Posted by ozza121
Interesting what peoples views are post Armstrong being outed as the bully, liar and manipulator that he was.

It's evident that he destroyed Lemond due to the Lemond asking questions that UCI and the world should have been asking.

Maybe a few on here, should be getting stuck into the absolute piece of dirt Armstrong is before looking further a field.

I have no idea about whether Lemond doped or not, interestingly there seems to be no noise from anyone whatsoever (including Walsh), about him doping and in the current era of dopers being outed left right and centre its is an interesting conundrum.

Armstrong for me is the scum of the earth, the way he lied, and destroyed peoples lives is disgusting, Betty and Lemond were destroyed by that piece of scum.

I find it confusing that if Lemond was such a big doper as suggested on here, he wouldn't just keep his mouth shut and his head down, but no he challenged Armstrong, something that no one else was prepared to do.

As for the title of this thread, there seems to be zero evidence that he doped, my view this thread was designed for one thing, and that was to divert attention away from the biggest cheat the world has ever seen.

And yes I loved Armstrong before we all found out the truth

LOL, did you just say that LA "destroyed" Betsy Andreu? That is so not true, just ask Betsy, she told me she is NOT a victim. See that is the thing, there really aren't any victims, so people like you just make them up. pathetic. And Lemond was destroyed too? How? Lemond wasn't a victim of Lance Armstrong either, you are really desperate aren't you? There were no victims of Armstrong cheating other then other European dopers. Plus, Lemond cheated too, that is obvious, no one recovers from anemia during a race after getting a shot of iron...it was epo clearly, the entire peloton pretty much knew it then and they know it now.....And Lemond and Betsy are doing just fine, they aren't "destroyed" at all. Lance Armstrong didn't "destroy" anyone. Your exaggerations are amusing but extremely far from the mark. Lance cheated just like the other teams were cheating. Lance got caught just like the others too, the only difference is, Lance is paying millions and serving a lifetime ban where others guilty of the same offense got 6 months at the most, and many are still riding today. People like you just jump on the bandwagon and try to make yourself look good by condemning Lance Armstrong and only Lance Armstrong as if he is the only one in the history of cycling who ever doped....Newsflash: they all doped, and it only makes you look like an idiot.