Evviva Pantani!



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B

Benjo Maso

Guest
I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. Of course from time to time he's behaving in a
strange way (to say the least), but on the other hand can you really blame him? Let's be fair, there
is probably no rider in the history of bicycle racing who has been so much humiliated, so much
hounded as Pantani. For example: last year when he was acquitted (because there wasn't any proof),
the UCI even insisted he should be convicted all the same. Would it have happened to any other
rider? I don't think so. It's obvious that Pantani has become the ideal scapegoat. I'm sure he must
have asked himself many times: why me? And why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich,
etc., etc. (and anyone who is believing they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did
must be completely naive). How come that he is constantly target number one and that Armstrong could
get away with it when he presented a medical certificate only after cortocoides where detected in
hus urine? (and how would Armstrong have reacted if according to the rules he had been suspended?).
Of course, he is guilty, but it's hardly fait that he is seen as public enemy number one and many,
many other offenders are almost venerated. A new season is starting and Pantani is trying again to
make a comeback. I hope this time he will have more succes than before. Of course, there is no
chance he will ever win the Tour or the Giro again. But if he reaches Paris or Milan, it would be a
moral victory. And if he can show us once again a glimpse of the man who won Grenoble-Les Deux
Alpes, the most exciting and beautiful TdF stage in the last twenty years, I will be very happy.

Benjo Maso
 
E

Ewoud Dronkert

Guest
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:20:46 +0100, benjo maso wrote:
> A new season is starting and Pantani is trying again to make a comeback. [...] if he can show us
> once again a glimpse of the man who won Grenoble-Les Deux Alpes, the most exciting and beautiful
> TdF stage in the last twenty years, I will be very happy.

Hear, hear!!

ED -closet (well not anymore) Pantani fan
 
K

Kurgan Gringion

Guest
"benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
> wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
> deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. Of course from time to time he's behaving in a
strange
> way (to say the least), but on the other hand can you really blame him? Let's be fair, there is
> probably no rider in the history of bicycle racing who has been so much humiliated, so much
> hounded as Pantani. For example: last year when he was acquitted (because there wasn't any proof),
> the UCI even insisted he should be convicted all the same. Would it have happened
to
> any other rider? I don't think so. It's obvious that Pantani has become
the
> ideal scapegoat. I'm sure he must have asked himself many times: why me?
And
> why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc. (and anyone who is believing
> they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be completely naive).

<snip>

Because Pantani is a fucking nutcase.

He can't keep his head together and now he's going Michael Jackson on us (plastic surgery which
makes him look worse).

At least he doesn't like sleeping in the same bed with young boys. That, at least, is one reason to
be a fan of Pantani. OK, you sold me. I am now a fan of Pantani because he doesn't like sleeping in
the same bed with young boys.

K. Gringioni fan of Pantani, not Michael Jackson

ps. what is it with the Euros? That's the only place Wacko Jacko can sell out a concert
 
D

Daniel Connelly

Guest
benjo maso wrote:

> And why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc. (and anyone who is
> believing they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be completely naive).
> How come that he is constantly target number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when
> he presented a medical certificate only after cortocoides where detected in hus urine?

There is no evidence whatsoever against Ullrich or Armstrong. The corticoid thing was completely
explained. Pantani's outrageous hematicrit data is on a completely different level.

With regard to the "everyone's guilty, don't be naive" argument -- that can be applied to any aspect
of life. "Don't punish the guilty; everyone's guilty, at least at heart." Cynicism is a tactic born
of laziness and ignorance.

Dan
 
B

Bikerecker

Guest
Panatani is a worthless piece of ****. Besides that, he is an all right guy. Greg
PS, I am too lazy to try and prove it, but I believe I was one of the first to denounce him on this
NG way back when. To reiterate my reasons: 1) little bitty guys shouldn't win TdF's, and can't
unless supercharged, and B) he stated in an interview with cyclesport that he would pursue a
career as a disco singer if he weren't a bike racer. I remember being lambasted by quite a few
Pantywaist sympathizers when I posted my anti-elefantina diatribes. Then he got caught... Greg
 
B

Benjo Maso

Guest
"Daniel Connelly" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht news:[email protected]...
>
>
> benjo maso wrote:
>
> > And
> > why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc.
(and
> > anyone who is believing they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be
> > completely naive). How come that he is constantly
target
> > number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when he presented a medical certificate
> > only after cortocoides where detected in hus urine?
>
> There is no evidence whatsoever against Ullrich or Armstrong. The
corticoid
> thing was completely explained.

Completely explained for everybody who wanted to believe it, especially the UCI which was thinking
of the consequences if Armstrong, who after the disastrous season of '98 was presented as the
saviour of bicycle racing, would have been suspended. Which didn't change the fact that Armstrong
was in breach of the rules and got away with it. Contrary for instance to Dierckxens, who in the
same Tour didn't even tested positive. The same attitude to Indurain who tested positive in the Tour
de l'Oise of '94. On the other hand, the same UCI insisted that Pantani should be convicted, even
when there was no evidence he was guilty.

> Pantani's outrageous hematicrit data is on a completely different level.

Sure, Pantani was guilty, no doubt. However, the affair is rather strange. Poor Pantani was lifted
from his bed and hadn't time to adjust his hematocrit. It was completely without precedent. It had
never been done before. No wonder that there is a tenacious rumour that it was institaged by the
Mafia (which is controlling the betting system in Italy), because it would have lost a fortune if
Pantani would have won the Giro
>
> With regard to the "everyone's guilty, don't be naive" argument -- that can be applied to any
> aspect of life.

I didn't say everybody is guilty. It's generally estimated that somewhere between the 1 and 10 % of
the professional bicycle riders, good enough to participate to the Tour, were really clean. Not at
the top of the classification, of course.

"Don't punish the guilty;
> everyone's guilty, at least at heart."

If you say so, I certainly don't agree. By the way, I hope you have noticed that Pantani has been
punsihed. More than enough, IMO.

Cynicism is a tactic born of laziness
> and ignorance.

I think Pantani should get a fair chance and not be hounded again. I also hope he will rehabilitate
himself. What's so cynical about that?

Benjo Maso
 
J

Jtn

Guest
> I think Pantani should get a fair chance and not be hounded again. I also hope he will
> rehabilitate himself. What's so cynical about that?
>
>
> Benjo Maso
>

he has been givin a fair chance. now he should go out and train his ass off and show what he is made
of in the giro and/or the tour and clear himself.
 
T

Tom Arsenault

Guest
[email protected] (Bikerecker) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Panatani is a worthless piece of ****. Besides that, he is an all right guy. Greg
> PS, I am too lazy to try and prove it, but I believe I was one of the first to denounce him on
> this NG way back when. To reiterate my reasons: 1) little bitty guys shouldn't win TdF's, and
> can't unless supercharged, and B) he stated in an interview with cyclesport that he would pursue
> a career as a disco singer if he weren't a bike racer. I remember being lambasted by quite a few
> Pantywaist sympathizers when I posted my anti-elefantina diatribes. Then he got caught... Greg

What is it with everyone who dreams that Pantani is some great champion of bike racing? OK, not
everyone, but there are still tons and tons of people who would fall over and cry if Pantani ever
came and rode with them (and then got dropped in the process). The man is washed up, a has been, who
would have never been if it weren't for the doping he was shooting into himself. I personally have
never liked him. Just speaking for myself. And he's such a talker. He can't back it up. There was
only one year he could, and shortly thereafter is when the trouble started. Poor Pantani... That man
has been given more chances than VDB's dog. He should just quit while he's still got a little bit of
pride (although the ear clipping may have just wiped that out).

I know what he could do though for money and a salary. He could go on a freak show with Michael
Jackson, Mike Tyson, George W. Bush, and Marco Pantani. Man, I bet they would rake it in.

Tom
 
J

Jonathan V.D. S

Guest
benjo maso <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[email protected]
> I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
> wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
> deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. Of course from time to time he's behaving in a
strange
> way (to say the least), but on the other hand can you really blame him? Let's be fair, there is
> probably no rider in the history of bicycle racing who has been so much humiliated, so much
> hounded as Pantani. For example: last year when he was acquitted (because there wasn't any proof),
> the UCI even insisted he should be convicted all the same. Would it have happened
to
> any other rider? I don't think so. It's obvious that Pantani has become
the
> ideal scapegoat. I'm sure he must have asked himself many times: why me?
And
> why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc. (and anyone who is believing
> they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be completely naive). How come
> that he is constantly
target
> number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when he presented a medical certificate only
> after cortocoides where detected in hus urine?
(and
> how would Armstrong have reacted if according to the rules he had been suspended?). Of course, he
> is guilty, but it's hardly fait that he is seen as public enemy number one and many, many other
> offenders are almost venerated.

I think it is because Pantani is an easy target - he has proven that he is unable to effectively
fight back to the doping allegations. If he had won the tour of 2000 and performed well after
that, he would have been hounded much less seriously. But Pantani shows that all the allegations
and the court cases affect him deeply, so perhaps the UCI tries to convey a message: 'we can break
your career'. Interestingly enough, Pantani wasn't satisfied with that and he decided to make
several comebacks, all of which failed because he obviously cannot handle the stress of having to
defend himself.

That is, in my opinion, the only reasonable explanation for why he has performed so lousy the last
couple of years. I don't think it is because of a lack of doping products, because I don't think he
has been clean since 2000. That may sound unfounded, but we all know that there are doping products
that cannot be detected by tests. There is no reason why riders would not use these, and I assume
that several are regularly used, especially by the top cyclists who need to live with the strain of
abnormal recuperation, intense training and regular performance.

So 'psychological factors' made Pantani vulnerable to criticism, which made his performance worse,
which again opened him up to new criticism. Winners aren't hounded as much (Brochard was also
protected by the UCI when he had tested positive after he won the worlds). If the press accuses some
rider of having used doping, and consequently he wins a big victory, the popular view is that this
rider has 'answered' his critics. Pantani did not answer in the way that would have redeemed him.

Really funny is the criticism that he, as a person, is somehow the wrong type. Every time I've seen
him or read interviews, he came across as a quiet and slightly insecure person, who is rather eager
to please others. Not the arrogant lunatic many people apparently want him to be. I guess the quotes
he sent out into the press, as well as his reaction to the infamous stage to the Ventoux created an
image of him which is far beside the truth.

> A new season is starting and Pantani is trying again to make a
comeback.
> I hope this time he will have more succes than before. Of course, there is no chance he will ever
> win the Tour or the Giro again. But if he reaches Paris or Milan, it would be a moral victory. And
> if he can show us once again a glimpse of the man who won Grenoble-Les Deux Alpes, the most
> exciting and beautiful TdF stage in the last twenty years, I will be very happy.

Well, he has a lot of achievements on his palmares that other active cyclists cannot match: like two
victories on Aple d'Huez, two grand tours in one year, etc. He is remarkable no matter what. Perhaps
the relative quiet of a div. II team will give him the space he needs to pull himself back together
again and get some results.

Jonathan.

>
> Benjo Maso
 
S

Sergio Servadio

Guest
benjo maso <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[email protected]
> I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
> wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
> deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. ...

Well said, Benjo. I am convinced he has his own problems affecting him so much as a person and a
rider too. At the same time so many people are there only to pick, ridicule and castigate others
only because it doesn't cost anything to them to do so. Nor could they do any better, perhaps.

Sergio Pisa
 
K

Kirby Krieger

Guest
If you make your living as a "personality", you are going to be judged as an actor on the world's
stage -- our eyeballs pay our entrance to that Shakespearean spectacle, and our comments perfume the
actors lucre. I watch, therefore I speak: P-earless has cast himself as Bottom, once a
none-too-mid-summer night's dream champion, lofted on the wingbeats of poet'n fairies, now an aging
huckster whose make-up shows in the spotlight. We deserve better.

Schreef away,

Kirby.

"Sergio SERVADIO" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> benjo maso <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
> [email protected]
> > I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
> > wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion,
> > he deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. ...
>
> Well said, Benjo. I am convinced he has his own problems affecting him so much as a person and a
> rider too. At the same time so many people are there only to pick, ridicule and castigate others
> only because it doesn't cost anything to them to do so. Nor could they do any better, perhaps.
>
> Sergio Pisa
 
J

Jonathan V.D. S

Guest
JTN <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws [email protected]
>
> > I think Pantani should get a fair chance and not be hounded again. I
also
> > hope he will rehabilitate himself. What's so cynical about that?
> >
> >
> > Benjo Maso
> >
>
> he has been givin a fair chance. now he should go out and train his ass
off
> and show what he is made of in the giro and/or the tour and clear himself.

That does not make sense. How would that clear him?
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite
pass-time of
> this newsgroup, and I wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the
pleasure to
> kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he deserves more to be
pitied,
> than to be ridiculed.

To complain because he gets more press time than anyone else but Armstrong is a little strange if
you ask me.

> Pantani did must be completely naive). How come that he is
constantly target
> number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when he
presented a
> medical certificate only after cortocoides where detected in hus
urine? (and
> how would Armstrong have reacted if according to the rules he had
been
> suspended?).

I hate to have to explain this to someone that knows it better than me but nevertheless:

Armstrong never "presented a medical certificate". The corticoid detected was in a legal skin cream
that they had originally reported as having in the medical supplies. None of this REQUIRED any
medical certificate and should never have been even mentioned save that there is enough jealously in
the foreign press that they will sieze on anything to "explain" the superiority of Armstrong when we
all know it is a matter of talent and focus. The only equal talent out there, Jan Ullrich, is simply
not focused on his training enough.
 
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