Evviva Pantani!

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Benjo Maso, Feb 20, 2003.

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  1. Benjo Maso

    Benjo Maso Guest

    I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
    wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
    deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. Of course from time to time he's behaving in a
    strange way (to say the least), but on the other hand can you really blame him? Let's be fair, there
    is probably no rider in the history of bicycle racing who has been so much humiliated, so much
    hounded as Pantani. For example: last year when he was acquitted (because there wasn't any proof),
    the UCI even insisted he should be convicted all the same. Would it have happened to any other
    rider? I don't think so. It's obvious that Pantani has become the ideal scapegoat. I'm sure he must
    have asked himself many times: why me? And why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich,
    etc., etc. (and anyone who is believing they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did
    must be completely naive). How come that he is constantly target number one and that Armstrong could
    get away with it when he presented a medical certificate only after cortocoides where detected in
    hus urine? (and how would Armstrong have reacted if according to the rules he had been suspended?).
    Of course, he is guilty, but it's hardly fait that he is seen as public enemy number one and many,
    many other offenders are almost venerated. A new season is starting and Pantani is trying again to
    make a comeback. I hope this time he will have more succes than before. Of course, there is no
    chance he will ever win the Tour or the Giro again. But if he reaches Paris or Milan, it would be a
    moral victory. And if he can show us once again a glimpse of the man who won Grenoble-Les Deux
    Alpes, the most exciting and beautiful TdF stage in the last twenty years, I will be very happy.

    Benjo Maso
     
    Tags:


  2. On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:20:46 +0100, benjo maso wrote:
    > A new season is starting and Pantani is trying again to make a comeback. [...] if he can show us
    > once again a glimpse of the man who won Grenoble-Les Deux Alpes, the most exciting and beautiful
    > TdF stage in the last twenty years, I will be very happy.

    Hear, hear!!

    ED -closet (well not anymore) Pantani fan
     
  3. "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
    > wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
    > deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. Of course from time to time he's behaving in a
    strange
    > way (to say the least), but on the other hand can you really blame him? Let's be fair, there is
    > probably no rider in the history of bicycle racing who has been so much humiliated, so much
    > hounded as Pantani. For example: last year when he was acquitted (because there wasn't any proof),
    > the UCI even insisted he should be convicted all the same. Would it have happened
    to
    > any other rider? I don't think so. It's obvious that Pantani has become
    the
    > ideal scapegoat. I'm sure he must have asked himself many times: why me?
    And
    > why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc. (and anyone who is believing
    > they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be completely naive).

    <snip>

    Because Pantani is a fucking nutcase.

    He can't keep his head together and now he's going Michael Jackson on us (plastic surgery which
    makes him look worse).

    At least he doesn't like sleeping in the same bed with young boys. That, at least, is one reason to
    be a fan of Pantani. OK, you sold me. I am now a fan of Pantani because he doesn't like sleeping in
    the same bed with young boys.

    K. Gringioni fan of Pantani, not Michael Jackson

    ps. what is it with the Euros? That's the only place Wacko Jacko can sell out a concert
     
  4. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

  5. benjo maso wrote:

    > And why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc. (and anyone who is
    > believing they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be completely naive).
    > How come that he is constantly target number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when
    > he presented a medical certificate only after cortocoides where detected in hus urine?

    There is no evidence whatsoever against Ullrich or Armstrong. The corticoid thing was completely
    explained. Pantani's outrageous hematicrit data is on a completely different level.

    With regard to the "everyone's guilty, don't be naive" argument -- that can be applied to any aspect
    of life. "Don't punish the guilty; everyone's guilty, at least at heart." Cynicism is a tactic born
    of laziness and ignorance.

    Dan
     
  6. Bikerecker

    Bikerecker Guest

    Panatani is a worthless piece of shit. Besides that, he is an all right guy. Greg
    PS, I am too lazy to try and prove it, but I believe I was one of the first to denounce him on this
    NG way back when. To reiterate my reasons: 1) little bitty guys shouldn't win TdF's, and can't
    unless supercharged, and B) he stated in an interview with cyclesport that he would pursue a
    career as a disco singer if he weren't a bike racer. I remember being lambasted by quite a few
    Pantywaist sympathizers when I posted my anti-elefantina diatribes. Then he got caught... Greg
     
  7. Benjo Maso

    Benjo Maso Guest

    "Daniel Connelly" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > benjo maso wrote:
    >
    > > And
    > > why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc.
    (and
    > > anyone who is believing they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be
    > > completely naive). How come that he is constantly
    target
    > > number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when he presented a medical certificate
    > > only after cortocoides where detected in hus urine?
    >
    > There is no evidence whatsoever against Ullrich or Armstrong. The
    corticoid
    > thing was completely explained.

    Completely explained for everybody who wanted to believe it, especially the UCI which was thinking
    of the consequences if Armstrong, who after the disastrous season of '98 was presented as the
    saviour of bicycle racing, would have been suspended. Which didn't change the fact that Armstrong
    was in breach of the rules and got away with it. Contrary for instance to Dierckxens, who in the
    same Tour didn't even tested positive. The same attitude to Indurain who tested positive in the Tour
    de l'Oise of '94. On the other hand, the same UCI insisted that Pantani should be convicted, even
    when there was no evidence he was guilty.

    > Pantani's outrageous hematicrit data is on a completely different level.

    Sure, Pantani was guilty, no doubt. However, the affair is rather strange. Poor Pantani was lifted
    from his bed and hadn't time to adjust his hematocrit. It was completely without precedent. It had
    never been done before. No wonder that there is a tenacious rumour that it was institaged by the
    Mafia (which is controlling the betting system in Italy), because it would have lost a fortune if
    Pantani would have won the Giro
    >
    > With regard to the "everyone's guilty, don't be naive" argument -- that can be applied to any
    > aspect of life.

    I didn't say everybody is guilty. It's generally estimated that somewhere between the 1 and 10 % of
    the professional bicycle riders, good enough to participate to the Tour, were really clean. Not at
    the top of the classification, of course.

    "Don't punish the guilty;
    > everyone's guilty, at least at heart."

    If you say so, I certainly don't agree. By the way, I hope you have noticed that Pantani has been
    punsihed. More than enough, IMO.

    Cynicism is a tactic born of laziness
    > and ignorance.

    I think Pantani should get a fair chance and not be hounded again. I also hope he will rehabilitate
    himself. What's so cynical about that?

    Benjo Maso
     
  8. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    > I think Pantani should get a fair chance and not be hounded again. I also hope he will
    > rehabilitate himself. What's so cynical about that?
    >
    >
    > Benjo Maso
    >

    he has been givin a fair chance. now he should go out and train his ass off and show what he is made
    of in the giro and/or the tour and clear himself.
     
  9. [email protected] (Bikerecker) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Panatani is a worthless piece of shit. Besides that, he is an all right guy. Greg
    > PS, I am too lazy to try and prove it, but I believe I was one of the first to denounce him on
    > this NG way back when. To reiterate my reasons: 1) little bitty guys shouldn't win TdF's, and
    > can't unless supercharged, and B) he stated in an interview with cyclesport that he would pursue
    > a career as a disco singer if he weren't a bike racer. I remember being lambasted by quite a few
    > Pantywaist sympathizers when I posted my anti-elefantina diatribes. Then he got caught... Greg

    What is it with everyone who dreams that Pantani is some great champion of bike racing? OK, not
    everyone, but there are still tons and tons of people who would fall over and cry if Pantani ever
    came and rode with them (and then got dropped in the process). The man is washed up, a has been, who
    would have never been if it weren't for the doping he was shooting into himself. I personally have
    never liked him. Just speaking for myself. And he's such a talker. He can't back it up. There was
    only one year he could, and shortly thereafter is when the trouble started. Poor Pantani... That man
    has been given more chances than VDB's dog. He should just quit while he's still got a little bit of
    pride (although the ear clipping may have just wiped that out).

    I know what he could do though for money and a salary. He could go on a freak show with Michael
    Jackson, Mike Tyson, George W. Bush, and Marco Pantani. Man, I bet they would rake it in.

    Tom
     
  10. benjo maso <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    [email protected]
    > I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
    > wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
    > deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. Of course from time to time he's behaving in a
    strange
    > way (to say the least), but on the other hand can you really blame him? Let's be fair, there is
    > probably no rider in the history of bicycle racing who has been so much humiliated, so much
    > hounded as Pantani. For example: last year when he was acquitted (because there wasn't any proof),
    > the UCI even insisted he should be convicted all the same. Would it have happened
    to
    > any other rider? I don't think so. It's obvious that Pantani has become
    the
    > ideal scapegoat. I'm sure he must have asked himself many times: why me?
    And
    > why not Indurain, Rominger, Olano, Gotti, Bugno, Ullrich, etc., etc. (and anyone who is believing
    > they didn't use the same illegal substances as Pantani did must be completely naive). How come
    > that he is constantly
    target
    > number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when he presented a medical certificate only
    > after cortocoides where detected in hus urine?
    (and
    > how would Armstrong have reacted if according to the rules he had been suspended?). Of course, he
    > is guilty, but it's hardly fait that he is seen as public enemy number one and many, many other
    > offenders are almost venerated.

    I think it is because Pantani is an easy target - he has proven that he is unable to effectively
    fight back to the doping allegations. If he had won the tour of 2000 and performed well after
    that, he would have been hounded much less seriously. But Pantani shows that all the allegations
    and the court cases affect him deeply, so perhaps the UCI tries to convey a message: 'we can break
    your career'. Interestingly enough, Pantani wasn't satisfied with that and he decided to make
    several comebacks, all of which failed because he obviously cannot handle the stress of having to
    defend himself.

    That is, in my opinion, the only reasonable explanation for why he has performed so lousy the last
    couple of years. I don't think it is because of a lack of doping products, because I don't think he
    has been clean since 2000. That may sound unfounded, but we all know that there are doping products
    that cannot be detected by tests. There is no reason why riders would not use these, and I assume
    that several are regularly used, especially by the top cyclists who need to live with the strain of
    abnormal recuperation, intense training and regular performance.

    So 'psychological factors' made Pantani vulnerable to criticism, which made his performance worse,
    which again opened him up to new criticism. Winners aren't hounded as much (Brochard was also
    protected by the UCI when he had tested positive after he won the worlds). If the press accuses some
    rider of having used doping, and consequently he wins a big victory, the popular view is that this
    rider has 'answered' his critics. Pantani did not answer in the way that would have redeemed him.

    Really funny is the criticism that he, as a person, is somehow the wrong type. Every time I've seen
    him or read interviews, he came across as a quiet and slightly insecure person, who is rather eager
    to please others. Not the arrogant lunatic many people apparently want him to be. I guess the quotes
    he sent out into the press, as well as his reaction to the infamous stage to the Ventoux created an
    image of him which is far beside the truth.

    > A new season is starting and Pantani is trying again to make a
    comeback.
    > I hope this time he will have more succes than before. Of course, there is no chance he will ever
    > win the Tour or the Giro again. But if he reaches Paris or Milan, it would be a moral victory. And
    > if he can show us once again a glimpse of the man who won Grenoble-Les Deux Alpes, the most
    > exciting and beautiful TdF stage in the last twenty years, I will be very happy.

    Well, he has a lot of achievements on his palmares that other active cyclists cannot match: like two
    victories on Aple d'Huez, two grand tours in one year, etc. He is remarkable no matter what. Perhaps
    the relative quiet of a div. II team will give him the space he needs to pull himself back together
    again and get some results.

    Jonathan.

    >
    > Benjo Maso
     
  11. benjo maso <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    [email protected]
    > I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
    > wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he
    > deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. ...

    Well said, Benjo. I am convinced he has his own problems affecting him so much as a person and a
    rider too. At the same time so many people are there only to pick, ridicule and castigate others
    only because it doesn't cost anything to them to do so. Nor could they do any better, perhaps.

    Sergio Pisa
     
  12. If you make your living as a "personality", you are going to be judged as an actor on the world's
    stage -- our eyeballs pay our entrance to that Shakespearean spectacle, and our comments perfume the
    actors lucre. I watch, therefore I speak: P-earless has cast himself as Bottom, once a
    none-too-mid-summer night's dream champion, lofted on the wingbeats of poet'n fairies, now an aging
    huckster whose make-up shows in the spotlight. We deserve better.

    Schreef away,

    Kirby.

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > benjo maso <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    > [email protected]
    > > I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite pass-time of this newsgroup, and I
    > > wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the pleasure to kick a man who is down. But in my opinion,
    > > he deserves more to be pitied, than to be ridiculed. ...
    >
    > Well said, Benjo. I am convinced he has his own problems affecting him so much as a person and a
    > rider too. At the same time so many people are there only to pick, ridicule and castigate others
    > only because it doesn't cost anything to them to do so. Nor could they do any better, perhaps.
    >
    > Sergio Pisa
     
  13. JTN <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws [email protected]
    >
    > > I think Pantani should get a fair chance and not be hounded again. I
    also
    > > hope he will rehabilitate himself. What's so cynical about that?
    > >
    > >
    > > Benjo Maso
    > >
    >
    > he has been givin a fair chance. now he should go out and train his ass
    off
    > and show what he is made of in the giro and/or the tour and clear himself.

    That does not make sense. How would that clear him?
     
  14. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I know of course that Pantani-bashing is among the favorite
    pass-time of
    > this newsgroup, and I wouldn't dream of robbing anyone of the
    pleasure to
    > kick a man who is down. But in my opinion, he deserves more to be
    pitied,
    > than to be ridiculed.

    To complain because he gets more press time than anyone else but Armstrong is a little strange if
    you ask me.

    > Pantani did must be completely naive). How come that he is
    constantly target
    > number one and that Armstrong could get away with it when he
    presented a
    > medical certificate only after cortocoides where detected in hus
    urine? (and
    > how would Armstrong have reacted if according to the rules he had
    been
    > suspended?).

    I hate to have to explain this to someone that knows it better than me but nevertheless:

    Armstrong never "presented a medical certificate". The corticoid detected was in a legal skin cream
    that they had originally reported as having in the medical supplies. None of this REQUIRED any
    medical certificate and should never have been even mentioned save that there is enough jealously in
    the foreign press that they will sieze on anything to "explain" the superiority of Armstrong when we
    all know it is a matter of talent and focus. The only equal talent out there, Jan Ullrich, is simply
    not focused on his training enough.
     
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