"Exotic" frame materials price watch

[Hunter]

"Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."

Erm. Steel is real?

http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
(Second item down)

 

[Matt]

So will we soon see Habanero welded-steel frames??? MMMMMM, now
_that's_ a bike that I would buy....

Hunter wrote:
> "Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
> made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
> fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
> largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
> Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
> Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
> bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
> golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
> really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
> on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."
>
> Erm. Steel is real?
>
> http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
> (Second item down)

 

[Skippy]

"Hunter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
> made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
> fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
> largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
> Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
> Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
> bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
> golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
> really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
> on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."
>
> Erm. Steel is real?
>
> http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
> (Second item down)
>

Given the small amounts used in a bike frame and the cost of tooling and
labour, I wonder what fraction of the final price the cost of the carbon is.


Skippy
E&OE

 

[[email protected]]

>
> Given the small amounts used in a bike frame and the cost of tooling and
> labour, I wonder what fraction of the final price the cost of the carbon is.
>
>
This is a very good point. I too would like to know the cost of the
materials in a carbon frame. Any actually know?

 

[Franklin]

[email protected] wrote:
> >
> > Given the small amounts used in a bike frame and the cost of tooling and
> > labour, I wonder what fraction of the final price the cost of the carbon is.
> >
> >
> This is a very good point. I too would like to know the cost of the
> materials in a carbon frame. Any actually know?

This fellow might have an idea:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/howibuil.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/dz64d

 

[Phil Lee, Squid]

Franklin wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> Given the small amounts used in a bike frame and the cost of
>>> tooling and labour, I wonder what fraction of the final price the
>>> cost of the carbon is.
>>>
>>>
>> This is a very good point. I too would like to know the cost of the
>> materials in a carbon frame. Any actually know?
>
> This fellow might have an idea:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/howibuil.htm
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/dz64d

If you read it, you'd see this part of the article:

D) Cost. I kept careful track of the money I spent, but not the hours. The
project took about the whole summer of 1995, not including the time spent
beforehand thinking and dreaming up sketches. After I was done, I totaled up
$848.78 spent. With hind sight, I see now that I could have spent less. If I
were to do it again, I could make the same bike for about $600.00. But who
wants to make the same bike over again? I will try a new design next time!

--
Phil Lee, Squid

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Hunter wrote:
> "Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
> made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
> fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
> largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
> Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
> Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
> bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
> golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
> really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
> on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."
>
> Erm. Steel is real?
>
> http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
> (Second item down)

Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
Ben????

A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
whole lot of nothin'...

 

[Pat Lamb]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
> steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
> makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
> light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
> wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
> in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
> that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
> Ben????
>
> A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> whole lot of nothin'...

Not at all! That means 0.6% of nothing!

Pat

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Pat Lamb wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> >
> > Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
> > steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
> > makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
> > light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
> > wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
> > in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
> > that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
> > Ben????
> >
> > A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> > before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> > pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> > whole lot of nothin'...
>
> Not at all! That means 0.6% of nothing!
>
> Pat

Reality, what a concept!!

 

[Franklin]

Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
> >>> Given the small amounts used in a bike frame and the cost of
> >>> tooling and labour, I wonder what fraction of the final price the
> >>> cost of the carbon is.
.. . .
> After I was done, I totaled up
> $848.78 spent.

So, what percentage of that was the carbon?

 

[Pat Lamb]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Pat Lamb wrote:
>> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>> Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
>>> steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
>>> makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
>>> light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
>>> wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
>>> in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
>>> that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
>>> Ben????
>>>
>>> A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
>>> before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
>>> pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
>>> whole lot of nothin'...
>> Not at all! That means 0.6% of nothing!
>
> Reality, what a concept!!

Not to be confused with math...

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hunter wrote:
> > "Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
> > made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
> > fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
> > largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
> > Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
> > Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
> > bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
> > golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
> > really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
> > on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."
> >
> > Erm. Steel is real?
> >
> > http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
> > (Second item down)
>
> Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
> steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
> makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
> light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
> wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
> in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
> that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
> Ben????
>
> A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> whole lot of nothin'...

1500 gram. I bought what I thought was a light Marinoni
TIG welded frame at 1850 gram (weighed it myself);
oversized top and down tubes, 430 mm chain stays; Columbus
Zona tubing. Where does Waterford save 350 gram?

--
Michael Press

 

[Matt]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> > before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> > pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> > whole lot of nothin'...
>
> 1500 gram. I bought what I thought was a light Marinoni
> TIG welded frame at 1850 gram (weighed it myself);
> oversized top and down tubes, 430 mm chain stays; Columbus
> Zona tubing. Where does Waterford save 350 gram?
>
Zona isn't a particularly light tubeset, as these things go. If you go
to Columbus' site, they list the 7 tubes needed for a 54cm frame as
weighing 1390gm for Zona, but only 1000g for Spirit--which I'm guessing
is similar to the True Temper set used for the R-33--so there's a 390g
difference. I would guess similar comparisons hold for Dediacci Zero
vs. EOM16.5. (Note to those who didn't read carefully, these weights
are for tubes only, they don't include BB shell, drop outs, etc)

As a side note, my Zona bike feels pretty dang sturdy--if I drop it on
something, I'm pretty sure that something will feel it much more than
my bike. I wonder just how sturdy the R-33 et al. are--are they
'lifetime' frames, or are they going to need to be replaced after the
first crash?

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Hunter wrote:
> > > "Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
> > > made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
> > > fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
> > > largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
> > > Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
> > > Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
> > > bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
> > > golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
> > > really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
> > > on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."
> > >
> > > Erm. Steel is real?
> > >
> > > http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
> > > (Second item down)
> >
> > Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
> > steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
> > makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
> > light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
> > wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
> > in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
> > that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
> > Ben????
> >
> > A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> > before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> > pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> > whole lot of nothin'...
>
> 1500 gram. I bought what I thought was a light Marinoni
> TIG welded frame at 1850 gram (weighed it myself);
> oversized top and down tubes, 430 mm chain stays; Columbus
> Zona tubing. Where does Waterford save 350 gram?
>
> --
> Michael Press

Undoubtedly in the wall thickness of the tubes. Zona isn't particularly
thin walled, the TreuTemper Platinum OS tubes H2OFord uses, is...We
have a Waterford with Campag and a Moots ti with Campag and they weigh
the same-17 pounds.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Matt wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> > > before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> > > pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> > > whole lot of nothin'...
> >
> > 1500 gram. I bought what I thought was a light Marinoni
> > TIG welded frame at 1850 gram (weighed it myself);
> > oversized top and down tubes, 430 mm chain stays; Columbus
> > Zona tubing. Where does Waterford save 350 gram?
> >
> Zona isn't a particularly light tubeset, as these things go. If you go
> to Columbus' site, they list the 7 tubes needed for a 54cm frame as
> weighing 1390gm for Zona, but only 1000g for Spirit--which I'm guessing
> is similar to the True Temper set used for the R-33--so there's a 390g
> difference. I would guess similar comparisons hold for Dediacci Zero
> vs. EOM16.5. (Note to those who didn't read carefully, these weights
> are for tubes only, they don't include BB shell, drop outs, etc)
>
> As a side note, my Zona bike feels pretty dang sturdy--if I drop it on
> something, I'm pretty sure that something will feel it much more than
> my bike. I wonder just how sturdy the R-33 et al. are--are they
> 'lifetime' frames, or are they going to need to be replaced after the
> first crash?

Only if killed. Just crashing w/o obvious damage doesn't mean it needs
to be replaced, like carbon, if the crash is severe enough. Dented
tubes are a likely result as the wall thickness is thin but if expertly
welded together, as Waterfords certainly are...a life time frame..

 

[Phil Lee, Squid]

Franklin wrote:
> Phil Lee, Squid wrote:
>>>>> Given the small amounts used in a bike frame and the cost of
>>>>> tooling and labour, I wonder what fraction of the final price the
>>>>> cost of the carbon is.
> . . .
>> After I was done, I totaled up
>> $848.78 spent.
>
> So, what percentage of that was the carbon?

Oops, I misread, sorry.
--
Phil Lee, Squid

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hunter wrote:
> > > > "Cycling enthusiasts can expect to see prices head uphill for bikes
> > > > made of in-demand specialty materials such as titanium and carbon
> > > > fiber. Amid rising demand, titanium and carbon-fiber makers are
> > > > largely catering to their bigger customers: the aerospace industry.
> > > > Zsolt Rumy, chief executive of St. Louis-based Carbon Fiber maker
> > > > Zoltek Companies Inc., says he is trying to keep prices lower for
> > > > bigger customers by raising prices for smaller ones, such as bike and
> > > > golf-club makers, who constitute 15% of his company's business. "We
> > > > really jack up the price" for smaller customers, he says. He's passed
> > > > on more of the 60% to 100% increases to sporting-goods customers."
> > > >
> > > > Erm. Steel is real?
> > > >
> > > > http://www.danielgross.net/archives/2006/07/30-week/index.html
> > > > (Second item down)
> > >
> > > Today in local papaer, once again the 'know nothing' writer equated
> > > steel with cheap Walmart bikes and then of course, heavy...Steel tubing
> > > makers have not sat on their hands and continue to make tubing that is
> > > light, long lasting and makes for a frame that can ride great, look
> > > wonderful and last forever. Those makers that have put all their eggs
> > > in the carbon or ti, blend, goofiness are gonna lose unless they see
> > > that steel is indeed real and also MUCH cheaper..can ya hear me now
> > > Ben????
> > >
> > > A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> > > before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> > > pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> > > whole lot of nothin'...
> >
> > 1500 gram. I bought what I thought was a light Marinoni
> > TIG welded frame at 1850 gram (weighed it myself);
> > oversized top and down tubes, 430 mm chain stays; Columbus
> > Zona tubing. Where does Waterford save 350 gram?
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press
>
> Undoubtedly in the wall thickness of the tubes. Zona isn't particularly
> thin walled, the TreuTemper Platinum OS tubes H2OFord uses, is...We
> have a Waterford with Campag and a Moots ti with Campag and they weigh
> the same-17 pounds.

Ah, I looked it up.
Zona is 0.7 mm - 0.5 mm.
True Temper S3 is 0.5 mm - 0.4 mm.

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Matt" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > A high end, all custom Waterford is $1300, btw-3.3 pound frame and
> > > before you whine about 3.3 pounds and a whiz bang carbon at 2
> > > pounds...those 1.3 pounds with the typical american 190 pounder means a
> > > whole lot of nothin'...
> >
> > 1500 gram. I bought what I thought was a light Marinoni
> > TIG welded frame at 1850 gram (weighed it myself);
> > oversized top and down tubes, 430 mm chain stays; Columbus
> > Zona tubing. Where does Waterford save 350 gram?
> >
> Zona isn't a particularly light tubeset, as these things go. If you go
> to Columbus' site, they list the 7 tubes needed for a 54cm frame as
> weighing 1390gm for Zona, but only 1000g for Spirit--which I'm guessing
> is similar to the True Temper set used for the R-33--so there's a 390g
> difference. I would guess similar comparisons hold for Dediacci Zero
> vs. EOM16.5. (Note to those who didn't read carefully, these weights
> are for tubes only, they don't include BB shell, drop outs, etc)
>
> As a side note, my Zona bike feels pretty dang sturdy--if I drop it on
> something, I'm pretty sure that something will feel it much more than
> my bike. I wonder just how sturdy the R-33 et al. are--are they
> 'lifetime' frames, or are they going to need to be replaced after the
> first crash?

Thanks. For the record, I am most satisfied with the
frame. It looks good and handles a treat. I put on a 850
gram steel fork, rather than carbon, so you know that
weight is not _the_ priority for me.

--
Michael Press