Extra spoke allowance for tied and soldered wheels?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Suzy Jackson, Mar 15, 2003.

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  1. Suzy Jackson

    Suzy Jackson Guest

    Hi all,

    Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what
    length should I add to spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate, or should I try something a
    little more secure?

    Regards,

    Suzy

    --
    ---
    Suzy Jackson [email protected] http://www.suzyj.net
     
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  2. Kapers

    Kapers Guest

    Hiya Suzy. Ummm... Erm... well.... It's like this.... you lace the wheel like you would normally,
    then you wrap some wire around the spokes where they weave under each other (last cross before going
    their seperate ways towards the rim) and you secure the wire with some solder. Now..... I've done
    some twist laces for folks looking to build some wheels for stock trials using skinnier rims (to
    keep weight down), just add 3 to 4 mm to the recommended spoke length and twist the spokes together
    one full rotation where they would weave (so the pulling spoke is still the pulling spoke and the
    pushing spoke, if you will excuse the expression, is still the pushing spoke). Adds side/lateral
    load strength like tying/soldering does but...... I oversimplified both techniques quite a
    bit.....so you should definately attempt either with a few spare bits around the shop before trying
    it with new stuff (the first time) or be prepared to re-do the job a few times as, when your skill
    level increases so will your pickyness level.... making you want to re-do all your hard work to meet
    your new level of skill.... which will again increase your pickyness level... which will lead you to
    want to... (you get the idea).... Also..... keep in mind that in most cases overcompensating in one
    direction (such as trying to radically increase lateral stiffness using spokes alone) leads to
    weaknesses in other directions. Most of the trials wheels I built up could be stood on (gently)
    without tacoing but were somewhat prone to flat spots and dings as the rims rere still too weak for
    the riding style and low tire pressures. Many road riders attest to radial spoked wheels feeling
    harsh vertically and wiggly laterally and many bmx riders like 4-cross wheels because they stay true
    laterally but tend to go out of round easily (allthough such "feelings" are subjective at best).

    So...... in conclusion, Good luck, and if your post was actually meant as a joke.... it was funny.
    Thank you (I needed that). If you are serious, then it was fun. Thank you (I needed that).

    Keith.

    "The knack lies in learning to throw yourself
    - at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams.

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    > lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    > reef knot, they're
    much
    > too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what length should I add to
    > spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate,
    or
    > should I try something a little more secure?
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Suzy
    >
    > --
    > ---
    > Suzy Jackson [email protected] http://www.suzyj.net
     
  3. Suzy Jackson wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners

    Nonono. It's not tied and soldered spokes that make you go faster through corners, it's peared
    spokes. Simply rub the fruit over them before each ride.

    --
    John Stevenson [email protected]
     
  4. Richard

    Richard Guest

    I thought you'd know better...

    1. You build the wheel, then wrap the wire where the spokes cross closest to the rim.
    Solder the ends

    2. I've read (here, I believe), that there is nearly no performance gain. I've not seen a tied and
    soldered wheel in ages. If I have, it was a wheel built in the 70's

    HOWEVER, they look way cool! It my give you a bit of a psychological "edge" that may make you push
    yourself a wee bit harder. If you want to tie and solder a wheel set, then by all means, go for it
    (and enjoy the wheels!).

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    > lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    > reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim
     
  5. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    > lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    > reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what
    > length should I add to spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate, or should I try something
    > a little more secure?

    Obviously your thumbs are too weak. Being a girlie-girl, you shouldn't attempt this, or any other
    bike maintenance without a man present. Stretching spokes is no big deal, think about it, we all
    stretch chains and they're much thicker.

    P.S.

    Tied and soldered spokes are for climbing, not cornering. Have a non-engineer (male) explain
    it to you.
     
  6. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    > lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    > reef knot, they're
    much
    > too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what length should I add to
    > spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate,
    or
    > should I try something a little more secure?
    >

    Actually, it should probably be a clove hitch, that way it'll tighten against itself as the wheel
    flexes. Or maybe a butterfly knot so you'll have pretty loops in the middles? Regardless, you'll
    have to add at least 1cm to get the right length.

    Mike

    > Regards,
    >
    > Suzy
    >
    > --
    > ---
    > Suzy Jackson [email protected] http://www.suzyj.net
     
  7. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    > lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    > reef knot, they're
    much
    > too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what length should I add to
    > spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate,
    or
    > should I try something a little more secure?

    Suzy, there's a bright future for you writing for bicycle magazines!

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  8. Tbgibb

    Tbgibb Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "Mike S." <[email protected]> writes:

    >Actually, it should probably be a clove hitch, that way it'll tighten against itself as the wheel
    >flexes. Or maybe a butterfly knot so you'll have pretty loops in the middles? Regardless, you'll
    >have to add at least 1cm to get the right length.

    A clove hitch will slip. For the ultimate knot for the purpose try a couble carrick bend. It will
    never slip and it will look really-really-really cool. Add about 2 cm to the spoke length for
    this knot.

    Tom Gibb <[email protected]
     
  9. >>Actually, it should probably be a clove hitch, that way it'll tighten against itself as the wheel
    >>flexes. Or maybe a butterfly knot so you'll have pretty loops in the middles? Regardless, you'll
    >>have to add at least 1cm to get the right length.
    >
    >
    > A clove hitch will slip. For the ultimate knot for the purpose try a couble carrick bend. It will
    > never slip and it will look really-really-really cool. Add about 2 cm to the spoke length for
    > this knot.

    I dunno, I've always been partial to the studdingsail tack bend...

    Sheldon "That's Pronounced 'Stun'sl'" Brown
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    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  10. Eric Holeman

    Eric Holeman Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Actually, it should probably be a clove hitch, that way it'll tighten against itself as the
    >wheel flexes.

    I'm fresh out of cloves. Would peppercorns or capers work as well?

    --
    ---
    Eric Holeman Chicago Illinois USA
     
  11. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Eric Holeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Mike S. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Actually, it should probably be a clove hitch, that way it'll tighten against itself as the wheel
    > >flexes.
    >
    > I'm fresh out of cloves. Would peppercorns or capers work as well?
    >
    >
    Peppercorns would probably be better, capers are too soft and won't hold the knot.

    Mike

    > --
    > ---
    > Eric Holeman Chicago Illinois USA
     
  12. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >Hi all, Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been
    >trying to lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent
    >spokes in a reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs).
    >So what length should I add to spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate, or should I try
    >something a little more secure?

    I think you are confusing tied and soldered spokes with twisted spokes. Neither of which will make
    you go faster through corners.
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     
  13. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Alex Rodriguez <[email protected]> writes:

    >> Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying
    >> to lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in
    >> a reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what
    >> length should I add to spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate, or should I try something
    >> a little more secure?

    > I think you are confusing tied and soldered spokes with twisted spokes. Neither of which will make
    > you go faster through corners.

    I think you are confusing farce with fact. I liked this thread up to now. You took the mysticism out
    of it while readers were soaring high. Stop that!

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  14. Suzy Jackson wrote:

    > Hi all,
    >
    > Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners, I've been trying to
    > lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie adjacent spokes in a
    > reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my thumbs). So what
    > length should I add to spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate, or should I try something
    > a little more secure?

    Despite reputation as being the better knot, a reef knot is made using mixed polarities which will
    slow your bike down. In this case, the maligned granny knot will serve you better, provided you tie
    it with right polarity on the left spokes, and left polarity on the right.

    However, if you live in Australia or elsewhere in the southern hemisphere, you should reverse these
    directions due to the reversed coriolis force. The physics get a little complicated here so you'll
    just have to trust me.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
     
  15. John Albergo

    John Albergo Guest

    Suzy Jackson wrote:

    >Hi all,
    >
    >Having heard that tied and soldered spokes make you go faster through corners
    >
    And, the solder makes you go faster downhill! Use a good lead solder, not that antimony crap.

    >, I've been trying to lace a wheel with tied and soldered spokes. However, I find that when I tie
    >adjacent spokes in a reef knot, they're much too short to reach the rim (not to mention hurting my
    >thumbs). So what length should I add to spokes when I tie them? Is a reef knot adequate, or should
    >I try something a little more secure?
    >
    >Regards,
    >
    >Suzy
    >
    >
    >
    Spoke length estimation is the most difficult aspect of tying and soldering. It all depends on the
    initial tightness of your knots and as you noted, thumb strength is a big factor. Once you manage to
    engage the nipples there will likely be a lot of slack to be taken up. For these reasons it's best
    to get spokes at least 30 mm longer than would normally be required. And, of course, the entirety of
    that extra length will need to be threaded. Once the wheel is built and tightened up, the excess
    spoke material can be removed by cutting and grinding the ends.

    While a reef (square) knot gives a good amount of area for soldering, a fisherman's knot allows for
    a more natural spoke line.
     
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