Extracted from Thread

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

So tell me, has there every been a truth in the entire human history? Or
is this just another way to actually avoid commenting on the real facts
of
the Muslim extremist world which was coming all together before Iraq was
essentially crushed?

Saddam's regime was secular not muslim extremist. If anything they
counterbalanced the muslim extremists in Iran.

What a moron. You actually believe that extremists aren't willing to work
together to gain advantage. Leave it to someone like you to believe that
[censored]'s Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists were all palsy-walsy because they
thought the same. That is aside from the fact that Nazi's said they were
socialists and Fascists said they were anti-socialists.

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I hope the day comes when to be a socialist -- a liar,
thief, and killer -- is something considered not respectable.

Actually the majority of posters here honestly believe that it is a GOOD
idea to steal from the rich and give to the poor as long as they themselves
aren't bothered.

Tom Kunich said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So tell me, has there every been a truth in the entire human history?
Or is this just another way to actually avoid commenting on the real
facts of the Muslim extremist world which was coming all together before Iraq
was essentially crushed?

Quoted message said:

Donald Munro said:

Saddam's regime was secular not muslim extremist. If anything they
counterbalanced the muslim extremists in Iran.

Tom Kunich said:

What a moron. You actually believe that extremists aren't willing to work
together to gain advantage.

You're right. But only in a alternate universe where Bush,
Cheney and Rumsfelds lies are true.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

So tell me, has there every been a truth in the entire human history? Or
is this just another way to actually avoid commenting on the real facts
of
the Muslim extremist world which was coming all together before Iraq was
essentially crushed?

Quoted message said:

Saddam's regime was secular not muslim extremist. If anything they
counterbalanced the muslim extremists in Iran.

What a moron. You actually believe that extremists aren't willing to work
together to gain advantage. Leave it to someone like you to believe that
[censored]'s Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists were all palsy-walsy because they
thought the same. That is aside from the fact that Nazi's said they were
socialists and Fascists said they were anti-socialists.

Dumbass -

Saddam wasn't a supporter of Al Qaeda because Al Qaeda wants familial
dynasties like the former Husseins of Iraq and the Sauds of Saudi
Arabia out of power in favor of a pan-Islamic state.

As an aside, the FBI interrogator interviews were fascinating (the guy
who babysat Hussein during his incarceration). As we all now know,
Saddam didn't have the WMD. He did want to reconstitute the program.
However, it wasn't intended for use against the United States. He was
afraid of Iran. Makes sense. When Saddam attacked Iran in 1980 (with
our tacit support - it started during the Iranian Hostage Crisis in
Tehran), that war lasted 8 years and over a million Iranians died. *Of
course* the Iranians had an axe to grind w/ Saddam.

If Saddam wanted to use WMD on the United States, he would've used
them in the first Gulf War in 1991 He did not do so because, despite
being a ruthless, brutal, WMD-using vs. the Kurds/Iranians dictator,
he was a rational player. He didn't want to commit suicide. So when
kicked him out of Kuwait and killed 300,000 of his troops in the
process, he refrained. He wasn't a fanatic.

Bin Laden would've used them. (duh)

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I hope the day comes when to be a socialist -- a liar,
thief, and killer -- is something considered not respectable.

Actually the majority of posters here honestly believe that it is a GOOD
idea to steal from the rich and give to the poor as long as they themselves
aren't bothered.

And to believe in the need for any safety net whatsoever makes one an
evil socialist? That sounds like paranoia to me. Both of you.

On Feb 12, 5:26 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You're talking again about what you want.  How can you support someone
who straight up lies to your face about something so evident.  His
tour was not a "joke" -- it's about people dying and him trying to lie
about the situation in Iraq.

I meant joke in it's ridiculous and laughable sense. I stick with it
being a joke that he thought he could go there, do what he did, and
sell it to the people here.
I think McCains comments on the security situation were over the top,
but compared to his earlier visits the situation had improved. I can
see where they came from. The single comment that jumps out at me as
ridiculous though was his comment about American's being able to walk
around safely, and when challenged claiming he had just come from one.
That's pure BS.
He wouldn't even be close to my first choice, maybe Olympia Snowe
from Maine, but she's not going anywhere with the hatred from the far
right and her pro-choice, pro gay rights stances.
Most of the few "moderate democrats" seem to be to her right on
social issues and that doesn't work for me.
Bill C

On Feb 12, 5:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:11:20 -0800 (PST), Bill C

Quoted message said:

They both deliberately distort issues for a politcal purpose, Moore
provides more evidence for his points, and only those points, thereby
building a more credible seeming distortion.

Hmmm, the overall message of Fahrenheit 9/11 is that the so-called war
on terror is built on lies.  I've heard you agree with that.  He
provides facts that back that up.  What's the problem? Where's the
distortion?

The overall message of his health care movie was that our current
system of health care is far worse than equally wealthy countries and
he provides facts to back that up.  What's the problem?  I think you
even agree with that thesis. Where's the distortion?

JT
I haven't seen the movies in quite a while, and don't own them. I
want to make sure that I have what was actually in the movies, and not
things I've picked up in reading since then that have been attributed
to them, because there is a LOT of BS out there on this.
I'd appreciate it if you would point me at a site you feel presents
the info and points from the movies accurately that way we are
starting at an agreed spot for the discussion.
Sorry for some of the over the top BS being aimed at you. It's
totally uncalled for since you are one of the most civil, and
respectful people here. That's something I fail at regularly, and I
know I don't feel any more strongly than you do on things. The good
side is that there's plenty of room for improvement I suppose.
There's something else about McCain that I can't seem to dredge up,
and maybe you or someone else remember it. It was something sleazy
about the vitamin/supplement industry.
Bill C
Bill C

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorry for some of the over the top BS being aimed at you. It's
totally uncalled for since you are one of the most civil, and
respectful people here.

I consider John one of the more thoughtful people but over the last several
years he seems to have lost a great deal of the ability to actually think
about what he's writing. Too bad because he appears to be throwing away his
above normal intelligence.

Bill C said:

I haven't seen the movies in quite a while, and don't own them. I
want to make sure that I have what was actually in the movies, and not
things I've picked up in reading since then that have been attributed
to them, because there is a LOT of BS out there on this.
I'd appreciate it if you would point me at a site you feel presents
the info and points from the movies accurately that way we are
starting at an agreed spot for the discussion.

I haven't seen them either, but I'm not the guy who goes around
claiming Michael Moore is distorting anything..

I've seen excerpts on TV and reviews in the so-called mainsteram media
and often see attacks claiming he is unbalanced but have never seen a
critique of either of his two recent films that shows anything untrue.
I did see him recently on an interview with CNN's health reporter
(Sanjay Gupta) who kept saying the film about helath care had untruths
in it and Moore challenged him repeatedly to point out a single fact
that was wrong. The interviewer couldn't raise any, nor could he in
text exchange online afterwards.

Moore's overall message (the war was based on false pretenses and our
health care system is messed up) are true. He raised public
perception of these problems. And it's hard or impossible to find
factual errors in his recent films.

So what's the problem? That seems pretty admirable too me.

On Feb 13, 7:38 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:23:41 -0800 (PST), Bill C

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the movies in quite a while, and don't own them. I
want to make sure that I have what was actually in the movies, and not
things I've picked up in reading since then that have been attributed
to them, because there is a LOT of BS out there on this.
I'd appreciate it if you would point me at a site you feel presents
the info and points from the movies accurately that way we are
starting at an agreed spot for the discussion.

I haven't seen them either, but I'm not the guy who goes around
claiming Michael Moore is distorting anything..

I've seen excerpts on TV and reviews in the so-called mainsteram media
and often see attacks claiming he is unbalanced but have never seen a
critique of either of his two recent films that shows anything untrue.
I did see him recently on an interview with CNN's health reporter
(Sanjay Gupta) who kept saying the film about helath care had untruths
in it and Moore challenged him repeatedly to point out a single fact
that was wrong.  The interviewer couldn't raise any, nor could he in
text exchange online afterwards.

Moore's overall message (the war was based on false pretenses and our
health care system is messed up) are true.  He raised public
perception of these problems.  And it's hard or impossible to find
factual errors in his recent films.

So what's the problem?  That seems pretty admirable too me.

JT I've seen the films just not recently. There're a ton of sites that
claim to have documented distortions and misrepresentations in his
films, but since I don't trust my memory enough to go through point by
point about what was in the movies I'll find a site and go from there
on this I'll make sure I link to the first site so you can see where
what Moore actually claimed is coming from.
I seem to remember that I thought most of the distortion came from
things he omitted that didn't fit his agenda, but I'll lay evertything
out.
It's a great thing to raise those issues, but it needs to be done in
a transparent, objective manner, and has been by other folks on both
issues.
Bill C

Tom Kunich said:

"Fred Fredburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When the US violates human rights, that's a bigger deal to me because
I expect more from us. We're capable of better. Castro, not so much.

Perhaps you'd like to explain to us how those rights have been broken?

<snip>

The comparison between Gitmo and Castro is not mine. It was Bill's. I'm
suggesting that the comparison obscures more than it illuminates.

It sounds as though you're agreeing with me that it's not a helpful
comparison.

SLAVE of THE STATE said:

On Feb 12, 7:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:25:01 -0800 (PST), Bill C

Quoted message said:

Fred if human rights matter to you then they matter. If you condemn
one based on human rights, and take the "moral highground" how is the
other, just miles away and worse not a problem?

I express myself a lot more vocally about things done in my name, by
my government, or by entities that represent me (American
organizations) than things done by people I have less control over and
who I am less responsible for.

I don't recall you opposing afternoon training rides. LIAR!!! laughs

Now that you mention it, I don't recall YOU ever explicitly condemning
human/porcine fornication! HAH!

Tom Kunich said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So let me see - if a group convinces you that we are in grave danger
and does nothing they are heroes and if another group repeats the
same thing and takes actions they are "liars"?

That's not what I said. If you were to ask, I'd say they're both
liars. It's the way human beings are: they lie. It's not always that
big a deal, sometimes it is. But they do lie, all of them.

So tell me, has there every been a truth in the entire human history? Or
is this just another way to actually avoid commenting on the real facts
of the Muslim extremist world which was coming all together before Iraq
was essentially crushed?

Re-read the thread. You accused me of hypocritically calling Republicans
"liars". I haven't called anyone a liar in this thread. It's not clear
what you think I think the Repubs are lying about. So I don't know
whether I agree or disagree and if I do agree whether I think it's a big
deal or not.

I got home today and my wife had gotten her hair cut. I said "Oh HEY!
that looks NICE!" Really, I like her hair better when it's a bit longer.
I am a liar. Oh well, I can live with that.

Many of the things McCain is accused of lying about seem like that same
type of lie.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't you see a slight problem with the Democrats swearing for 5
years that we were in grave danger from Iraq and doing nothing?

Don't pretend 9/11 had no affect on foreign policy. You're not that
big a fool.

Why do you continue to keep from answering the real discussion about why
we moved there?

Are you saying Bush planned on invading Iraq and merely used 9/11 as an
excuse?

STOP IT TOM! You're channeling Michael Moore!

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Bill C said:

On Feb 13, 7:38 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:23:41 -0800 (PST), Bill C

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen the movies in quite a while, and don't own them. I
want to make sure that I have what was actually in the movies, and not
things I've picked up in reading since then that have been attributed
to them, because there is a LOT of BS out there on this.
I'd appreciate it if you would point me at a site you feel presents
the info and points from the movies accurately that way we are
starting at an agreed spot for the discussion.

I haven't seen them either, but I'm not the guy who goes around
claiming Michael Moore is distorting anything..

I've seen excerpts on TV and reviews in the so-called mainsteram media
and often see attacks claiming he is unbalanced but have never seen a
critique of either of his two recent films that shows anything untrue.
I did see him recently on an interview with CNN's health reporter
(Sanjay Gupta) who kept saying the film about helath care had untruths
in it and Moore challenged him repeatedly to point out a single fact
that was wrong.  The interviewer couldn't raise any, nor could he in
text exchange online afterwards.

Moore's overall message (the war was based on false pretenses and our
health care system is messed up) are true.  He raised public
perception of these problems.  And it's hard or impossible to find
factual errors in his recent films.

So what's the problem?  That seems pretty admirable too me.

JT I've seen the films just not recently. There're a ton of sites that
claim to have documented distortions and misrepresentations in his
films, but since I don't trust my memory enough to go through point by
point about what was in the movies I'll find a site and go from there
on this I'll make sure I link to the first site so you can see where
what Moore actually claimed is coming from.
I seem to remember that I thought most of the distortion came from
things he omitted that didn't fit his agenda, but I'll lay evertything
out.
It's a great thing to raise those issues, but it needs to be done in
a transparent, objective manner, and has been by other folks on both
issues.
Bill C

Let's just say that "Sicko" seemed a lot less convincing in Canada than
the US.

Least convincing in Cuba,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Bill C said:

It's a great thing to raise those issues, but it needs to be done in
a transparent, objective manner,

What possible addition could balance the conclusion that Bushco lied
about Saddam and WMD? What is needed to "balance" that? What sort of
ommission is there possibly that coudl be added to that?

There is nothing wrong with a subjective point of view if one is
right.

On Feb 13, 6:09 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:11:43 -0800 (PST), Bill C

Quoted message said:

It's a great thing to raise those issues, but it needs to be done in
a transparent, objective manner,

What possible addition could balance the conclusion that Bushco lied
about Saddam and WMD?  What is needed to "balance" that?  What sort of
ommission is there possibly that coudl be added to that?

There is nothing wrong with a subjective point of view if one is
right.

Dumbass -

Since they don't exist, it's not about WMD anymore. It's about
democracy!

Democracy is flowering along the banks of the Euphrates!

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

Explain why Gitmo is "wrong or bad policy". We roughly treat prisoners who
are holding extremely important information and you're [censored]. Castro
murders 10,000 people in his prisons because he doesn't like their politics
and you're perfectly OK with that.

Dumbass -

It has to do with what you want to be as a natioh.

One that rationalizes compromising one's ideals because the other guy
does it?

<rhetorical question> If your neighbor molests his kids does that make
it OK for you to do it too? </rhetorical question>

All the great war theorists, from Sun Tzu to Lidell Hart, put morality
first. It's the #1 rule of grand strategy because it maximizes your
friends and minimizes your enemies, before a battle is ever begun.

The noted gutless pansy liberal George Washington agreed with you:

"Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of
our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of
our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,"

http://tinyurl.com/2nplum

It's also worth noting that there is no record of George Washington EVER
expressing disapproval of Fidel Castro. So we can safely dismiss his
opinions on this and everything else.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

So tell me, has there every been a truth in the entire human history? Or
is this just another way to actually avoid commenting on the real facts
of
the Muslim extremist world which was coming all together before Iraq was
essentially crushed?

Saddam's regime was secular not muslim extremist. If anything they
counterbalanced the muslim extremists in Iran.

What a moron. You actually believe that extremists aren't willing to work
together to gain advantage.

So Saddam's regime was working with the Iranians to gain an advantage? Wow. I
guess that explains the war they were having back in the '80s...

Quoted message said:

Leave it to someone like you to believe that
[censored]'s Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists were all palsy-walsy because they
thought the same. That is aside from the fact that Nazi's said they were
socialists and Fascists said they were anti-socialists.

Tom, [censored]'s Nazis were also fascists, not socialists. They started off with many
populist things to appeal to a greater number of people. Once they'd gotten into
power the first people that got rounded up were socialists.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

SLAVE OF THE STATE wrote:
I don't recall you opposing afternoon training rides.

Fred Fredburger said:

Now that you mention it, I don't recall YOU ever explicitly condemning
human/porcine fornication! HAH!

Pigs are supposed to be intelligent and make good pets.

Bill C said:

There's something else about McCain that I can't seem to dredge up,
and maybe you or someone else remember it. It was something sleazy about
the vitamin/supplement industry.

He must be on HGH. Perhaps WADA should start testing candidates.