Extremely high cadence

[Andy Coggan]

"xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> above, you stated:
>
> A. Coggan: This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but low power
> doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
power
> at a high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same thing.) Indeed, from a
> physiological perspective there is little if any reason to expect that it would.
>
> that is very different than what you just said: How is applying "good power across a wider range
> of rpms" any
different
> than being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either
case,
> it requires an increase in power at cadences above where it normally
peaks.

??

In one case, I'm stating my opinion/experience, and in the other I'm trying to get you to clarify
why you think we're talking about different things.

> ++ I have and am stating: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good
> power across
a
> wider range of rpms.
>
> and you disagree????

Perhaps I'm reading into what you mean by a "wider range of rpms", but yes, I disagree: I think that
training at very high cadence (with low power) only benefits you when pedalling really, really,
really fast.

Let's put some numbers on things: like almost anybody else, a number of years in the off-season I've
trained using a fixed gear on the road. Spinning down hills at 150+ rpm makes me better at not
fighting myself when turning the cranks that fast, which A) helps me achieve even higher cadences,
and B) helps me make a bit more power when pedaling so fast. However, I don't think that sort of
training per se does diddly-squat for my ability to make power at, say, 110 rpm (since I don't have
any problem staying smooth at that cadence anyway).

Andy Coggan

 

[Dave]

Actually I have never spent day one in a lab studying power output, I have been connected to various
power measuring devices in the real world, and I have logged thousands of miles on a fixed gear.
Does higher cadence improve racing? I know plenty of sucessful riders/racers who can't spin to save
their life, so maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Probably depends more on the physical/physiological
make-up of the individual asking the question. But in general high cadence work does not improve
your power output UNLESS the high cadence is being done in big gear/overgear training situation.
Which is what I stated is one of the benefits of overgeared motorpacing at a high speed/high
cadence. In my experience anyways Dave

"xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> Dave,
>
> You have slurred what I said, with your statement. Going forward, if you quote me, then please
> separate your beliefs from my statements.
>
> Your statement: "Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output in
> any range".
>
> is your statement of what you believe, but the point of this thread is ( view the original post ):
> "What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste of time, or even
> counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?"
>
> In other words, does high cadence workouts improve riding/racing?
>
> Using different words, what I am saying is: Improved pedaling technique translates into improved
> ability to deliver horsepower. Further, it has been my experience that efficiencies gained from
> improved pedaling technique = more power output.
>
> If you disagree with what I am saying, then I feel you spend too much time in a lab.
>
> John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
>
> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:WPOda.162144$S_4.87549@rwcrnsc53...
> > > ugh, wake up!
> > >
> > > Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a
> person
> > > to apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
> > >
> > > Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
> > > horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
> > >
> > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
> >
> >
> > No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to have
> a smooth spin" That is
> > ALL high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you to
> apply good power across a
> > wider range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do
> with power output in any
> > range
> >
> > Dave
> >
>

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031619236128%[email protected]...
> > In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?
> >
> > Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.
>
>
> damn! that must mean you are an expert.
Familiar with the topic beyond a lab, yes.
>
>
> > I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.
>
>
> can't cut off the lard can it?

Nope. And thanks for asking. 7-11 hours a week of training and early dinners have done okay though.
How about you?

-WG

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031755309226%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031619236128%[email protected]...
> > > In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do
> > > > they?
> > >
> > > Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.
> >
> >
> > damn! that must mean you are an expert.
> Familiar with the topic beyond a lab, yes.
> >
> >
> > > I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.
> >
> >
> > can't cut off the lard can it?
>
> Nope. And thanks for asking. 7-11 hours a week of training and early dinners have done okay
> though. How about you?
>
> -WG

just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.

 

[Raptor]

Some good info summarized by me thus: Yes, it helps but not much for the typical rider/racer.
Spinning is improved by faster spinning during practice, and having spun fast you are more able to
spin slightly faster in a race/ride when needed.

But world-class sprinters do it as a formal part of their training. My reading indicates that it's
to build the neuromuscular performance of the legs. (Meaning their muscles get so they can spin fast
without breaking or screwing up, right?) Does anyone know of any other reason to do it besides to
impress cute chicks on the next bike in spin class?

I will soon be teaching spin classes, so I'm thankful for the detailed discussion.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031755309226%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031619236128%[email protected]...
> > > > In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do
> > > > > they?
> > > >
> > > > Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.
> > >
> > >
> > > damn! that must mean you are an expert.
> > Familiar with the topic beyond a lab, yes.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.
> > >
> > >
> > > can't cut off the lard can it?
> >
> > Nope. And thanks for asking. 7-11 hours a week of training and early dinners have done okay
> > though. How about you?
> >
> > -WG
>
>
> just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.

3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

 

[James P Spooner]

Ok, bring on the studies already. Otherwise you're just expressing opinions and anecdotal evidence.
First I gotta figure out what the issue
is...(fatigued).

James P. Spooner

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Actually I have never spent day one in a lab studying power output, I have
been connected to various
> power measuring devices in the real world, and I have logged thousands of
miles on a fixed gear.
> Does higher cadence improve racing? I know plenty of sucessful
riders/racers who can't spin to save
> their life, so maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Probably depends more on
the physical/physiological
> make-up of the individual asking the question. But in general high cadence
work does not improve
> your power output UNLESS the high cadence is being done in big
gear/overgear training situation.
> Which is what I stated is one of the benefits of overgeared motorpacing at
a high speed/high
> cadence. In my experience anyways Dave
>
>
> "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:%[email protected]...
> > Dave,
> >
> > You have slurred what I said, with your statement. Going forward, if
you
> > quote me, then please separate your beliefs from my statements.
> >
> > Your statement: "Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output
in
> > any range".
> >
> > is your statement of what you believe, but the point of this thread is ( view the original post
> > ): "What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is
it a
> > waste of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect
of my
> > riding/racing?"
> >
> > In other words, does high cadence workouts improve riding/racing?
> >
> > Using different words, what I am saying is: Improved pedaling technique translates into improved
> > ability to
deliver
> > horsepower. Further, it has been my experience that efficiencies gained from improved pedaling
> > technique = more power output.
> >
> > If you disagree with what I am saying, then I feel you spend too much
time
> > in a lab.
> >
> > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
> >
> > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:WPOda.162144$S_4.87549@rwcrnsc53...
> > > > ugh, wake up!
> > > >
> > > > Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables
a
> > person
> > > > to apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
> > > >
> > > > Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique
enables a
> > > > person to apply their horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
> > > >
> > > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
> > >
> > >
> > > No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to
have
> > a smooth spin" That is
> > > ALL high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you
to
> > apply good power across a
> > > wider range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do
> > with power output in any
> > > range
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> >
>

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031933317124%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.
>
> 3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?

Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts (unlike some of the Fatties around here).

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:

> Some good info summarized by me thus: Yes, it helps but not much for the typical rider/racer.
> Spinning is improved by faster spinning during practice, and having spun fast you are more able to
> spin slightly faster in a race/ride when needed.
>
> But world-class sprinters do it as a formal part of their training. My reading indicates that it's
> to build the neuromuscular performance of the legs. (Meaning their muscles get so they can spin
> fast without breaking or screwing up, right?)

Alot of that is teaching the muscles not to oppose each other during the movement. I forget the
term for that. Inhibition? When I was training for sprints I knew I needed to get to about
140-145 rpm's for the speed I wanted but I didn't find much use in doing more than about 150
rpm's during training.

> Does anyone know of any other reason to do it besides to impress cute chicks on the next bike in
> spin class?
>
> I will soon be teaching spin classes, so I'm thankful for the detailed discussion.

You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more useful
to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph) at 100-120
rpm's than at 120+.

-WG

 

[Robert Chung]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote
> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > 3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?
>
> Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts

I thought you'd add, "anymore." Or are you saying you didn't like them before the donut
ride, either?

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031933317124%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Kurgan Gringioni
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > just started the 1200 calorie/day diet.
> >
> > 3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?
>
>
>
> Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts (unlike some of the Fatties around here).

I haven't had one in about a year-since I was at Dunkin Donuts in CT. Same for dead cow on a bun.
Ice cream however...

-WG

 

[Robert Chung]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote
> You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
> keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more
> useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph) at
> 100-120 rpm's than at 120+.

Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear to
be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn calories in
the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote
> > You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
> > keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more
> > useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph)
> > at 100-120 rpm's than at 120+.
>
> Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
> to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
> calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

I know, but perhaps with our suggestions Lynn will be a difference-maker.

-WG

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320032215568729%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes)
> > > while keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be
> > > more useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast
> > > (mph) at 100-120 rpm's than at 120+.
> >
> > Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
> > to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
> > calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.
>
> I know, but perhaps with our suggestions Lynn will be a difference-maker.

Spin class people want to lose weight. They don't care about going fast.

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > > 3 Krispy Kremes and a double latté?
> >
> > Lucky for me, I don't really like donuts
>
> I thought you'd add, "anymore." Or are you saying you didn't like them before the donut
> ride, either?

why do you think I threw up?

the 21 donut salute.

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Raptor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> Does anyone know of any other reason to do it besides to impress cute chicks on the next bike in
> spin class?

So you can impress the readers of r.b.r. by your ability to spin 220 rpm on rollers.

Andy Coggan

 

[Robert Chung]

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote
> Spin class people want to lose weight. They don't care about going fast.

Perhaps this will help: http://www.poundy.com/wwcards.html

 

[Risto Varanka]

Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
: Actually I have never spent day one in a lab studying power output, I have been connected to
: various power measuring devices in the real world, and I have logged thousands of miles on a
: fixed gear.

A good lab could be useful for studying effects of cadence training, because you can eliminate
random variables in a lab setup. Then again "good technique" develops over years, and you generally
can't run lab experiments for years on an end.

: make-up of the individual asking the question. But in general high cadence work does not improve
: your power output UNLESS the high cadence is being done in big gear/overgear training situation.
: Which is what I stated is one of the benefits of overgeared motorpacing at a high speed/high
: cadence.

Whoa, whoa, makes sense but is a bit confusing. Does "power output" really mean power output at a
given effort level, or power output at the maximum effort level (ie. for just a few seconds if
even that)?

Your statement seems to be supported by the age-old thing called the echo phenomenon of training:
turning big gears at a high cadence improves power output at a high effort level, because, duh, it
essentially is training at a high effort level.

Then again we can make the statement more specific by pointing out that highest power is produced by
turning big gears at a high cadence, and in addition, the most effective way to train for this is by
training in those specific conditions: turning big gears at a high cadence. In other words, there is
different neural, metabolic, muscular etc stuff involved under these conditions, which makes it
different from just turning big gears or pedalling at a high cadence - your legs and body will adapt
to the workload differently in each case.

: Dave

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Raptor]

Robert Chung wrote:
> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>You can get the students to go anaerobic (seems to be a popular thing during spin classes) while
>>keeping the rpm's at a more efficient 100-120 by increasing the resistance. This will be more
>>useful to them if they ever get on a real bike because they'll find it easier to go fast (mph) at
>>100-120 rpm's than at 120+.
>
>
> Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
> to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
> calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.

Heh. That sounds about right. An hour is way too short for a bike ride IMO, either indoors or out.
But you do what you've got time for, and in my case, what they'll pay me for.

I like your point though. Suggestions for spin class routines that will promote efficient power
production WHILE maintaining all the inefficient cram-work-into-a-short-time aspects? Sounds
self-defeating to me, so whoever comes up with good ideas wins a prize.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

 

[Raptor]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320032215568729%[email protected]...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Perhaps, but efficient power production seems antithetical to spinning classes. The goals appear
>>>to be to get the heart rate up quickly, to dehydrate the attendees, and secondarily to burn
>>>calories in the shortest time, i.e., to be as inefficient as possible.
>>
>>I know, but perhaps with our suggestions Lynn will be a difference-maker.
>
>
>
>
> Spin class people want to lose weight. They don't care about going fast.

There are several racers-in-training in the classes I currently attend and am studying to teach, as
well as quite a few serious riders like myself. (I expect to dabble in racing this season, once my
fitness gets where I like it. Going serious is just too much work.)

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.