Fabian Cancellara - a study in strength and flexibility
- Thread starter swampy1970
- Start date
I don't know - but he did win the prologue in the Amgen TOC again, just hours prior to coming down with a fever...n crowley said:
It might be an issue with neck strength and being able to keep your head up with a lower bar/stem position. That's the only thing that springs to mind for me...n crowley said:
Really? It doesn't make sense to use a more aggressive position for a 4-min event vs. a 1-hr event? That was the one part that seemed pretty informative to me.n crowley said:
Where did you read anything about there being one ideal powerful TT position? Pruitt seems to believe there's a spectrum of compromise between aero, power, and the duration that a position can be held, rather than a single ideal.
Ahh, okay. I misinterpreted your previous post as attributing the concept to Pruitt.n crowley said:
Also:
I meant no offense towards his limb-status or riding abilities with my comment. Honestly, I meant no offense at all, and hopefully a reknown expert in his field can recognize the humor intended, or at least has a sufficiently thick skin against comments from such a peanut gallery as this.dkrenik said:
I don't see how anything you wrote could be interpreted that way?frenchyge said:I meant no offense towards his limb-status or riding abilities with my comment. Honestly, I meant no offense at all, and hopefully a reknown expert in his field can recognize the humor intended, or at least has a sufficiently thick skin against comments from such a peanut gallery as this.
All we did was say that he stated the bleeding obvious, i.e. that the best TT rider in the current pro ranks would make a good TT rider.
I don't recall any questioning of his physical abilities or riding experience. Doesn't mean he doesn't have good thing to say about biomechanics etc.
Yeah, I know, and I don't think Dave was necessarily trying to insinuate that either (despite seemingly posting his statement in response to my comment). I just figured I'd take the opportunity to clear the air, since my real suspicion is that the cyclingnews writer is probably the one to blame for making the whole affair sound so silly.Alex Simmons said:
Absolutely. I just mentioned Andy's condition as an aside. Nothing more, nothing less.frenchyge said:Yeah, I know, and I don't think Dave was necessarily trying to insinuate that either (despite seemingly posting his statement in response to my comment). I just figured I'd take the opportunity to clear the air, since my real suspicion is that the cyclingnews writer is probably the one to blame for making the whole affair sound so silly.
Dave
swampy1970 said:
You will have to admit, like all the other (cycling) biomechanical experts of that time, he did not have the commonsense to realize that using a narrower hand/arm position could improve TT results. That's what happens when you spend all your time training and racing, the best ideas come during a relaxing ride on your bike.
Ever been to a yoga class?swampy1970 said:
My problem is the false syllogism:
1. Cancellara is a great TT rider
2. Cancellara is very flexible
3. Therefore great TT riders are very flexible.
3. doesn't follow from 1 & 2.
Sorry mate but that is pure drivel. I would explain further but ought not have to. Drivel.swampy1970 said:
You're right, it doesn't. I guess that someone of Pruitt's predigree should listen to people on this board.Alex Simmons said:
But maybe the fact that the two riders who earned the nickname "Mr Chrono" in the past two decades, Cancellara and Boardman, are both seriously flexible is just a sheer coincidence. Maybe that Hinault mentioned that flexibility was very important was just a covert ploy to distract is opponents into wasting time stretching when they could be getting in extra miles. I've read that LeMond put some merit to it as well...
Geoff, you mentioned in a previous thread that "you owned Sydney." How fast are you? Just curious...
Weren't there a couple distinctly non-flexible American tour riders in the last few years back who were pretty successful at time trials as well? Nahhh.... probably just my imagination.swampy1970 said:
After reading the entire article, I just feel bad for those poor Schleck boys who'll never amount to anything because of their poor flexibility.
No, it's probably that Pruitt has been misrepresented.swampy1970 said:You're right, it doesn't. I guess that someone of Pruitt's predigree should listen to people on this board.
What's important is being sufficiently flexible to do the job. Riders want to go faster, not tuck their hands under their feet.
Let the people from the British Empire go at it...it is fun to read all these wonderful local expressions...
But like they say us Yanks across the pond are not very good at all...
-js
But like they say us Yanks across the pond are not very good at all...
-js
frenchyge said:Weren't there a couple distinctly non-flexible American tour riders in the last few years back who were pretty successful at time trials as well? Nahhh.... probably just my imagination.
After reading the entire article, I just feel bad for those poor Schleck boys who'll never amount to anything because of their poor flexibility.
I don't think he's been misrepresented, based upon what I've read of Pruitt's work in the past. If someone of Pruitt's stature says it's important and Keen/Boardman says it's important and should be worked at then who am I to argue otherwise?Alex Simmons said:
As for the highlighted part, that's what he's getting at. If you read the linked article rather than just the section that I copied and pasted, you get the impression that Cancellara is sufficiently flexible and strong enough to hold a good position but the Schleck twins aren't. Pruitt suggests they have 'work to do.' Watching Andy Schleck time trial, you do not see a vision of grace and elegance. you really do see someone who looks like they're struggling to maintain their position whilst going hard, constantly moving around on the saddle and frequently adjusting his hand position. Compare than to Cancellara who sits on his bike and is rock solid. Heck, even compare to Contador - he's a frail looking whippersnapper and he's pretty rock solid position wise during the time trials.
If you're stuggling to hold your position, you're taking away from being able to do what you need to do - ride as hard as you can for 100% of the time.
Like I said earlier - it took Boardman a couple of months to where he could get to that "state" of being relaxed and comfortable on what would become the Lotus Bike that he won the 92 Olympic Pursuit on. For some people, flexibility just doesn't happen - it's something that has to be worked on. Having the strength to hold that position just doesn't happen overnight either. Chris presented this as being one of the biggest challenges in the year prior to that event but was worth doing. Would Chris have caught Jens in the final with a couple of laps to go if he wasn't that aerodynamic? According to Chris, probably not.
Pruitt has probably seen enough riders who posess the ability to produce a high power output and are able to maintain excellent position. He's probably helped many get to that state and recognises what it takes to get there.
When I went through all this back in 1995/96 I knocked 1.25 minutes of my best 10mile, 1 minute off my 25 and 4.5 minutes of my best 50 mile times. An increase of 40 watts doesn't get you 75 seconds over 10 miles when up end up almost averaging 29mph. I trained lots for that 40 watts I got over the preceding winter but also stretched lots to get in a better postion and to still feel reasonably comfortable. Holding your head up when you're that low for a bit less than 2 hours is a 'challenge' and I could have done with more shoulder and neck strength for that. As for equipment, it was a bit of a downgrade to 531 plain ol' round tubing for the frame and not an ounce of carbon on the bike.
In hindsight, the stretching that I was doing then was nothing compared to what I'm doing now... and I feel way better on the couple of short rides I've managed after recently getting back on the bike again this past week. The limiting factor is now arm strength and how much am I prepared to knee myself in the beergut. After 5 minutes that gets old.
Frenchy, if you're refering to Lance and his humpback time trialing position, you may want to note that he can't get any lower because of his seat setback and very exagerated toe down pedalling style. When your thigh is already being jammed into your body every pedal revolution there's no physical way you can get lower unless you move both the saddle and bars. Not even Lance and his product development team can get around that simple physical constraint imposed by nature. Having thighs larger than your typical pro cyclist also further reduces the amount of real estate that's available... Around 2002/2003 I believe he tried using a time trial bike that used the UCI minimum of 5cm setback during the development of the "million dollar bike" but... due to the time trials in the Tour being somewhat undulating that year, he discovered in training that he was faster on that type of course on his old bike. Big Dave Z is a veritable human rubber band. LeMond wasn't stuggling for that great position either.
Tyler Hamilton, Olympic Time Trial champion... well, what can you say other than - Blood Doping helps you go faster. Hamilton kept the medal because the lab at Athens screwed up the B sample - I think they froze it or something silly but was subsequently banned follow a failed test in the Tour of Spain which was pretty close to the Olympics. It just goes to show that it's not only LLND in Paris that screws up lab results. I think he got another ban for his little part in Operation Puerto for paying Fuentes a big wad of cash for EPO and various other goodies in addition to more blood doping in 2005. Funny that now he's off the various go faster goodies the speed has dropped off. Tyler finished the recent Tour of California's prologue in 71st place, over 17 seconds behind Cancellara. Compare that to the Tour de France prologues in the past where he's beat Lance and finished top 10 mere seconds behind the winner. Also figure that this aint Fabians goal for the year and he abandoned with a fever later that day. This is may be Rock Racings biggest race of the year - you would have thought that Tyler would have been flying for this. Even old man Lance and a few Jelly Belly riders had his scalp in this one.
Just incase I missed a good US pro who was a great time trialist, was there anyone else?
N Crowley - of that time? Pruitt is working very much in the present... and I'm not sure why you're refering to hand positions when the entire debate is about flexibility and strength. How 'bout you pull out the ouija board and ask Matre Jacque what he thought on this matter?
