Faired LWB vs High Racers

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Stratrider, Feb 4, 2003.

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  1. Stratrider

    Stratrider Guest

    I continue to drool over the Strada/Corsa/Aero. Yet I continue to read opinions that suggust a
    faired lwb (ie GRR) is a faster bike given the same engine. For those that own both, do you find
    this to be a true statement?

    Jim Reilly Reading, PA
     
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  2. Jim, at the recent Bacchetta Ralley down here in South Florida, I got to ride with (Mostly BEHIND.
    WAY Behind) Rich Pinto and John Schlitter. They on the Bacchetta Aero Ti's and me on my faired GRR
    Ti. I don't consider myself that FAST of cyclist, although I can usually end up with an 18+ mph
    average for a sustained 50 mile sprint, with the local DF Hammerheads. What impressed me the most
    about riding with those guys, was how easily they cut through a 15+ (CHILLY) headwind and kept
    probably a 25+ mph speed. I was fading while hanging on at 22 mph. My so-called aerodynamic fairing
    seemed to have hampered my speed, instead of enhancing it. Still, I think a lot has to do with the
    engine part. Had John and Rich been on Strada's, Corsa's or my GRR Ti; I believe they would still
    have rolled FAST! (Faster than me, anyway...) I think the weight factor plays a significant part
    here too. Anytime you can push something forward that's pounds lighter surely can't hurt, your
    overall performance. Can this make you actually faster? Maybe / maybe not; BUT you can at least
    endure riding at a fairly faster pace, for a LONGER time, with a lighter weight bike, that places
    your body in an optimum aerodynamic position. (IMHO of course) I still LOVE my GRR Ti and will be
    keeping it. BUT, I have my Bacchetta Aero on order, as I post this.

    EZ Biker :) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti, Tailwind and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

    PS: An interesting encounter I'd LOVE to see would be Rich Pinto, John Schlitter (Of Bacchetta) vs.
    Fast Freddy Markham. (Easy Racers)

    "stratrider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I continue to drool over the Strada/Corsa/Aero. Yet I continue to read opinions that suggust a
    > faired lwb (ie GRR) is a faster bike given the same engine. For those that own both, do you find
    > this to be a true statement?
    >
    > Jim Reilly Reading, PA
     
  3. Derek Swift

    Derek Swift Guest

    > I continue to drool over the Strada/Corsa/Aero. Yet I continue to read opinions that suggust a
    > faired lwb (ie GRR) is a faster bike given the same engine. For those that own both, do you find
    > this to be a true statement?

    I have ridden both. There are drawbacks to both.

    LWBs
    - a fairing will make you faster but adds more weight

    - a long wheelbase is great on down hills but *can* be difficult to manuver at slow speeds
    working uphill.

    - crank position is typically lower (unless you go with a higher crank model like a RANS V2 or a
    Rotator Pursuit or a Burley Canto).

    SWBs
    - SWBs can use a fairing too, but sometimes it is negliable benefit depending on how open or closed
    the riding position is. Adds weight.

    - tailboxes help almost more with speed than front fairings. Can be expensive unless you build your
    own (an easy task with coroplast).

    - high crank position disagrees with some riders. Riders cite the numb feet situation.

    - easier to haul/store
    - - - -

    My own preference is to have the higher crank position. I can generate more power and speed on them.

    Derek
     
  4. Carol Cohen

    Carol Cohen Guest

    I agree, that people like Rich Pinto and John Schlitter are faster than anyone else, on whatever
    they choose to ride. And though I'm happy on my faired TourEasy, I'd love to be able to consider
    acquiring an Aero. But they are made too big for 38" xseam people. What say, Aero makers, to
    designing a short people's Aero?

    C.C.

    > From: "EZ Biker :-\)" <[email protected]> Organization: AT&T Broadband Newsgroups:
    > alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 16:46:40 GMT Subject: Re: Faired LWB vs
    > High Racers
    >
    > Jim, at the recent Bacchetta Ralley down here in South Florida, I got to ride with (Mostly BEHIND.
    > WAY Behind) Rich Pinto and John Schlitter. They on the Bacchetta Aero Ti's and me on my faired GRR
    > Ti. I don't consider myself that FAST of cyclist, although I can usually end up with an 18+ mph
    > average for a sustained 50 mile sprint, with the local DF Hammerheads. What impressed me the most
    > about riding with those guys, was how easily they cut through a 15+ (CHILLY) headwind and kept
    > probably a 25+ mph speed. I was fading while hanging on at 22 mph. My so-called aerodynamic
    > fairing seemed to have hampered my speed, instead of enhancing it. Still, I think a lot has to do
    > with the engine part. Had John and Rich been on Strada's, Corsa's or my GRR Ti; I believe they
    > would still have rolled FAST! (Faster than me, anyway...) I think the weight factor plays a
    > significant part here too. Anytime you can push something forward that's pounds lighter surely
    > can't hurt, your overall performance. Can this make you actually faster? Maybe / maybe not; BUT
    > you can at least endure riding at a fairly faster pace, for a LONGER time, with a lighter weight
    > bike, that places your body in an optimum aerodynamic position. (IMHO of course) I still LOVE my
    > GRR Ti and will be keeping it. BUT, I have my Bacchetta Aero on order, as I post this.
    >
    > EZ Biker :) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti, Tailwind and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > PS: An interesting encounter I'd LOVE to see would be Rich Pinto, John Schlitter (Of Bacchetta)
    > vs. Fast Freddy Markham. (Easy Racers)
    >
    > "stratrider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> I continue to drool over the Strada/Corsa/Aero. Yet I continue to read opinions that suggust a
    >> faired lwb (ie GRR) is a faster bike given the same engine. For those that own both, do you find
    >> this to be a true statement?
    >>
    >> Jim Reilly Reading, PA
     
  5. stratrider wrote:
    >
    > I continue to drool over the Strada/Corsa/Aero. Yet I continue to read opinions that suggust a
    > faired lwb (ie GRR) is a faster bike given the same engine. For those that own both, do you find
    > this to be a true statement?

    I don't have a faired LWB, but do have a faired SWB (Haluzak) and a Strada. In my experience the
    faired bike is faster on the flats, but the Strada is faster overall. I can cruise at nearly 30mph
    on flats with the Hal and mid-20's on the Strada. But the problem is that the Hal will lose all the
    momentum the moment I hit an uphill, but not the Strada. The Hal also has a 50mph stability-imposed
    speed limit on downhills. I haven't hit 50 on the Strada yet, but since the bike feels much more
    solid, I think it would be easier to control.

    One of my riding buddies rides a GRR with a Rotator fairing and extra-low bodysock. I can't keep up
    with him on either one of my bikes, no matter what the terrain. The only time I'm faster than him is
    when I'm on my Hal and we're off-road. You should see the looks I get when my giant avocado passes
    dual-suspension mountain bikes on dirt trails! ;)

    Cheers.
     
  6. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <BA655989.43EC6%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > I'd love to be able to consider acquiring an Aero. But they are made too big for 38" xseam people.
    > What say, Aero makers, to designing a short people's Aero?

    It is called a Giro. You'll have to add your own M-5 seat and maybe some Stelvios. I have yet to be
    convinced that a M-5 seat offers anything over a std Bacchetta seat though.

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  7. Carol Cohen

    Carol Cohen Guest

    Not the same. I want that large front wheel and I want it to be a Rich Pinto design. Besides, a seat
    height of 22" is only 1 inch shorter than the Aero seat, and that's still not short enough.

    C.C."shorty"Rider

    > In article <BA655989.43EC6%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> I'd love to be able to consider acquiring an Aero. But they are made too big for 38" xseam
    >> people. What say, Aero makers, to designing a short people's Aero?
    >
    > It is called a Giro. You'll have to add your own M-5 seat and maybe some Stelvios. I have yet to
    > be convinced that a M-5 seat offers anything over a std Bacchetta seat though.
    >
    > --
    >
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  8. Al Kubeluis

    Al Kubeluis Guest

    Hi Jim, Using side-by-side coast tests, Strada and V2 with and without fairing were same speed.
    I've done no tests with GRR. I sold V2 and got Corsa because swb Corsa handles better than lwb V2
    and is smaller.
    --
    ~~~al.kubeluis..md.usa.earth..corsa~~~ "stratrider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I continue to drool over the Strada/Corsa/Aero. Yet I continue to read opinions that suggust a
    > faired lwb (ie GRR) is a faster bike given the same engine. For those that own both, do you find
    > this to be a true statement?
    >
    > Jim Reilly Reading, PA
     
  9. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    "EZ Biker :)" wrote:
    >
    > Jim, at the recent Bacchetta Ralley down here in South Florida, I got to ride with (Mostly
    > BEHIND. WAY Behind) Rich Pinto and John Schlitter. They on the Bacchetta Aero Ti's and me on my
    > faired GRR Ti...

    The Easy Racers TE/GRR/TiGRR are significantly faster with a bodysock than with just the front
    fairing alone.

    If someone is unwilling to try a bodysock because of ASSUMED crosswind stability problems [1], they
    can still verify the effect by drafting the same Easy Racer with and without the bodysock. The draft
    is much poorer for the trailing rider with only the front fairing being used, compared to when the
    bodysock is used.

    [1] Of course, I am not thinking of anyone in particular here. ;)

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
    Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000
     
  10. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    Carol Cohen wrote:
    >
    > I agree, that people like Rich Pinto and John Schlitter are faster than anyone else, on whatever
    > they choose to ride....

    I will race either one of them if I get to use the lowracer of my choice and they have to use a
    QuadraCab with three passengers aboard. [1] ;)

    [1] < http://www.quadracycleinc.com/ >

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
    Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000
     
  11. I KNEW there was something about a certain Tom Sherman that reminded me of a PESKY mosquito that
    would never leave you alone. The word here I guess is PEST. Yep, ole Tom speaks with a lot of
    authority about knowing how bikes do in crosswinds. Illinois clearly is stuck out in the middle of
    the ocean with winds blowing every which way. Honestly, I truly believe the ONLY WIND blowing out of
    Illinois, is out of Tom Sherman's mouth. For someone that seems to have such a hard on for use of a
    body sock, why don't I see any such bike listed in his corral? Do you use a body sock on your RANS
    "Wavewind", Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset, Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000 bikes? (A simple
    YES or NO answer will do here) I'm likewise curious as to if you have even been to South Florida,
    much less even experienced a CROSSWIND or even know what one is and how it actually performs.

    The nice thing about the Bacchetta Aero, Strada or Corsa, is you don't need any add on socks,
    underwear, sheets or other frilly outerwear; they're PLENTY FAST without the add-ons!

    EZ Biker :) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti, Tailwind and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

    "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... > If
    someone is unwilling to try a bodysock because of ASSUMED crosswind
    > stability problems
     
  12. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    "EZ Biker :)" wrote:
    >
    > ...Yep, ole Tom speaks with a lot of authority about knowing how bikes do in crosswinds. Illinois
    > clearly is stuck out in the middle of the ocean with winds blowing every which way. Honestly, I
    > truly believe the ONLY WIND blowing out of Illinois, is out of Tom Sherman's mouth. For someone
    > that seems to have such a hard on for use of a body sock, why don't I see any such bike listed in
    > his corral? Do you use a body sock on your RANS "Wavewind"...

    EZ,

    To answer the last question first, see the photographic evidence at: <
    http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm >. Not only do I own a LWB OSS bike with a
    bodysock, but I even designed [1] and fabricated the sock myself.

    I have ridden the "Wavewind" in many conditions including heavy rush-hour traffic, open countryside
    and in many weather conditions. I have ridden with the bodysock on many group rides on windy days,
    including through a couple of sudden summer thunderstorms. [2] I took a long morning ride on a
    rather windy day [3] through western Champaign and eastern Piatt Counties on November 20, 2000. [4]
    I did not suffer significant handling difficulties, loss, or near loss of control due to wind on any
    of these occasions.

    In addition, I have ridden extensively with two Easy Racers GRR owners who have ridden their bikes
    on many windy days with a factory bodysock installed, and they both report experiences similar to
    main as regards the effect of the bodysock on handling and control on windy days.

    I consider this enough experience to make informed comments on the use of a bodysock on a LWB OSS
    bike in windy conditions.

    Are your opinions formed on anything besides speculation?

    [1] Borrowing ideas from the factory Easy Racers set-up.
    [2] Any of the a.r.b.r. contributors who live in or have ridden in east central Illinois can confirm
    that it is often quite windy, especially during the period from corn harvest to when the next
    season's corn is tall enough to provide a windbreak on rural roads.
    [3]http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCMI/2000/11/20/DailyHistory.html
    http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDEC/2000/11/20/DailyHistory.html
    [4] I remember the date because it was the Monday of Thanksgiving week (this was the first year that
    UIUC decided not to hold classes for the whole week, so I had the day off).

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" with Green Bodysock and other HPV's
     
  13. "EZ Biker :)" skrev...
    > I KNEW there was something about a certain Tom Sherman that reminded me of a PESKY mosquito that
    > would never leave you alone. The word here I guess is PEST.

    You gotta remember that he rides that wimpy little 305/406 wheeled lowracer, so he has to assert his
    manhood some other way. ;o) "What we 'ave here iz ze big wheel envy". S. Freud.

    Fairings and bodysocks is not a problem in my humble opinion unless its very gusty or you ride in
    the city, where you get a lot of turbulence. Then its time to slow down. (Based on rides with a
    tailboxed/fronfaired swb and my stints on my TE-clone with wheeldiscs, frontfairing in Copenhagen
    and a few days with a sock also at the danish championships)

    Mikael (You can see the TE-clone with sock and whatnot in the "recumbents"-folder here:
    http://photos.yahoo.com/briangoebbels last image in folder)
     
  14. Tom Sherman

    Tom Sherman Guest

    Mikael Seierup wrote:
    >
    > "EZ Biker :)" skrev...
    > > I KNEW there was something about a certain Tom Sherman that reminded me of a PESKY mosquito that
    > > would never leave you alone. The word here I guess is PEST.
    >
    > You gotta remember that he rides that wimpy little 305/406 wheeled lowracer, so he has to assert
    > his manhood some other way. ;o) "What we 'ave here iz ze big wheel envy". S. Freud....

    Mikael,

    I believe that your citation is incorrect; the quote is by S. Fraud.

    Modern psychological research has proven that there is an inverse relationship between preferred
    bicycle wheel size and manhood. ;)

    Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) RANS "Wavewind" and Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset and
    Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000
     
  15. Stratrider

    Stratrider Guest

    Al, the side by side is what I was really interested in. I have a faired Stratus. It flys down
    hill. My upright riding buddy agrees. He cannot stay with me going down (he kills me climbing and
    on the flat - better engine!). Yet I test rode the Strada and Corsa. Both seemed to roll with less
    effort than my Stratus. I am counting on a bonus this spring that will allow me to follow your
    lead. The Corsa looks like an awesome value for a bike spec'd out with the good stuff! Thanks for
    the response.

    Jim Reilly
     
  16. Carol Cohen

    Carol Cohen Guest

    > I KNEW there was something about a certain Tom Sherman that reminded me of a PESKY mosquito that
    > would never leave you alone. The word here I guess is PEST. Yep, ole Tom speaks with a lot of
    > authority about knowing how bikes do in crosswinds. Illinois clearly is stuck out in the middle of
    > the ocean with winds blowing every which way. Honestly, I truly believe the ONLY WIND blowing out
    > of Illinois, is out of Tom Sherman's mouth. For someone that seems to have such a hard on for use
    > of a body sock, why don't I see any such bike listed in his corral? Do you use a body sock on your
    > RANS "Wavewind", Rocket, Earth Cycles Sunset, Dragonflyer, Sidewalker Micro, Trek 6000 bikes? (A
    > simple YES or NO answer will do here) I'm likewise curious as to if you have even been to South
    > Florida, much less even experienced a CROSSWIND or even know what one is and how it actually
    > performs.
    >
    > The nice thing about the Bacchetta Aero, Strada or Corsa, is you don't need any add on socks,
    > underwear, sheets or other frilly outerwear; they're PLENTY FAST without the add-ons!
    >
    > EZ Biker :) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti, Tailwind and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
    >
    Evidently you, EZ Biker, haven't ventured out of the alligator swamps northward into the Prairie.
    Some days it's like being on the ocean: steady prevailing wind.

    And please keep in mind that if you ride a body-socked bent, you don't need to wear underwear -- or
    any other clothing. Why do you think they're smiling?

    C.C.,Rider
     
  17. Nice picture Thomas. (Kinda looks like a GRR wanna be... and your blue socks go very well with the
    blue frame) <Grin> And you made that pretty sock yourself? Maybe you can teach the Chinese how to
    make cheap suits... Re: In addition, I have ridden extensively with two Easy Racers GRR owners - SO
    you haven't actually really ridden a TE or GRR w/body sock have you? Seeing others vs actually
    experiencing the REAL THING makes a difference Tom Poo. (Since the last time this stuff came up; I
    did get to ride / try a faired GRR in Palm Beach Fl. and was very MOVED (Around the road) with it.
    You don't state anywhere that you have been to South Florida, so you obviously have no clue to our
    WIND conditions down here either. Alas, Tom Poo, TALK TO THE HAND, TALK TO THE HAND. <Laughter> BUT
    let me restate my previous point here... The nice thing about the Bacchetta Aero, Strada or Corsa,
    (Ooops, forgot to add the GIRO - they too are NO SLOUCH) is you don't need any add on socks,
    underwear, sheets or other frilly outerwear; they're PLENTY FAST without the add-ons! EZ Biker :)
    Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti, Tailwind and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

    "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > To answer the last question first, see the photographic evidence at: <
    > http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm >. Not only do I own a LWB OSS bike with a
    > bodysock, but I even designed [1] and fabricated the sock myself.
     
  18. WOW Carol! I never looked at it that way! A little porter potty, in place of the seat base and you
    could have your own Mobil home!!! <Grin> As for those alligator swamp things - I try and AVOID 4
    legged living matter that might be able to match my height, weight or more. Our local recumbo group
    did a ride and encountered some of those CREATURES... NOT ME!!!! EZ Biker :) Pompano Beach, Fl.
    (GRR Ti, Tailwind and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

    "Carol Cohen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:BA668DD6.43F6B%[email protected]...>
    > And please keep in mind that if you ride a body-socked bent, you don't
    need
    > to wear underwear -- or any other clothing. Why do you think they're smiling?
    >
    > C.C.,Rider
     
  19. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>... <snip>
    >
    > I consider this enough experience to make informed comments on the use of a bodysock on a LWB OSS
    > bike in windy conditions.
    >
    > Are your opinions formed on anything besides speculation?
    >
    > [1] Borrowing ideas from the factory Easy Racers set-up.

    To add fuel to the fire, several socked riders routinely ride in heavy wind here in Portland. Our
    last group ride got blasted:
    http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KTTD/2003/1/18/DailyHistory.html Note that the peak wind
    (30+mph!) was right at noon, when we were leaving the lunch stop and manuvering to catch the wind on
    our tails. The socks handled the changes in direction, bridge crossings, and freeway undercrossings
    just fine.

    Jeff

    P.S. riding for 8 miles with a 30mph tailwind is a freakin' kick in the pants!
     
  20. "EZ Biker :-\)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Yep, ole Tom speaks with a lot of authority about knowing how bikes do in crosswinds. Illinois
    > clearly is stuck out in the middle of the ocean with winds blowing every which way. Honestly, I
    > truly believe the ONLY WIND blowing out of Illinois, is out of Tom Sherman's mouth.

    EZ,

    I'm sorry I have to ask this question, but have you ever been out of south Florida?

    A short story: A couple years ago I drove the family 'out west' for a vacation. On the way we
    stopped in Hays, KS (yes, John Schlitter's home town) for lunch. When I opened the door on my
    (brand new) van, the wind nearly ripped it off the hinges. It bent the door so far around that it
    broke the body side moulding trim, and wrinkled the trailing edge of the left front fender causing
    over $500. damage.

    That same Kansas wind reaches Illinois.

    Many big cities have nick-names. New York/big apple; Louisville/derby; Indy/circle; Denver/mile
    high. Last I knew Chicago was the WINDY. And BTW, Chicago is in Illinois.

    Don't forget, Rans bicycles evolved from a sail-trike experiment. They wouldn't have built it if
    south Florida had a monopoly on wind.

    Now, to the original posters question. As many of you know, I had a GRR with fairing and bodysock
    that I loved very much. I never had any serious problems dealing with the oceanlike winds of the
    midwest. I did chose to sell it for the following reasons:

    1. I was ready for a change.
    2. The Aero will weigh at least 12-14lbs. less than the GRR/fairing/sock combo.
    3. This *much* lighter weight should help me climb significantly faster, increasing my
    overall speed.
    4. Kevin Kuehl (fast guy) made the same switch with fabulous results -he egged me on to do it.
    5. John, Mark, & Rich needed the money. ;-)

    Respectfully, GaryC Holt, MI, (where yesterday we had a 45mph wind warning.)
    http://blackrush.home.att.net Giro Screamer Aero on the way Former GRR/fairing/sock owner (still
    love 'em!)
    P.S. The M5 seat makes a big difference in performance over a mesh seat. Test ride a Strada, then a
    Corsa. Ask Jude McGloin.
     
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