FAT loss vs. Weight loss

[QikSmurf]

Ok - I'm interested in opinions regarding the much-hyped no/low carb diet. Most of you would know that once all the available glucose in the liver, muscles and blood are used up, the body begins to break down fat as the primary source of fuel i.e. Ketosis.

I am currently training with a couple of guys with a few excess kilo's of fat and by using a derivitive of this diet (Cyclic Keto Diet) they have reduced bodyfat from 12-18% to singe digit figures in 4 weeks. All of the guys on the CKD report little to no difference in energy levels after the first 10 days. The main benefit to these guys was no loss in muscle mass. (BJJ students)

The guys followed very strict 'refeeding' proceedures for 36 hours every week observing a 'maintenance' calorie intake during the re-feed stage. The guys used up the glycogen from the carb-up by the second day and entered ketosis for 3 days.

From an endurance perspective, I understand that using fat as a primary source of energy is not as efficient as glycogen. Most elite endurance athletes have low bodyfat% to start with so it would make it a bad source of energy anyway.

The thing is a lot of people come into this forum asking for weight loss tips. Most of the responses come from lean, experienced cyclists. Do a search and most people reply along the lines of "ride more and eat less". Thats like a kid asking an adult how they go about getting tall and getting the response, 'grow up'.

The bottom line is that I have seen first hand that people with excess body fat can have very fast and effective FAT loss results using a no-carb approach. Most people on a weight loss program don't eat enough calories to make the process sustainable. They end up losing big numbers initially due to water loss and even muscle loss if there isn't enough protein/BCAA in their diets.

So if your goal is to lose weight and particularly excess body fat, then CKD is well worth exploring. By incorporating the carb-up phase it makes it psychologically sustainable and it boosts energy levels every week. Yet another derivitive is to 'carb up' prior to each intense exercise session and then go back to no carbs in between.

Opinions please.

 

[tonyzackery]

Constantly/consistently depriving yourself of particular foods/nutrients over time is not sustainable. Low/no carb is okay in the short term and is effective for fat loss, but deprivation should not be a part of one's life for an extended amount of time...

And yes, I'm speaking from experience...

 

[bulaboy]

Ok - I'm interested in opinions regarding the much-hyped no/low carb diet. Most of you would know that once all the available glucose in the liver, muscles and blood are used up, the body begins to break down fat as the primary source of fuel i.e. Ketosis.

I am currently training with a couple of guys with a few excess kilo's of fat and by using a derivitive of this diet (Cyclic Keto Diet) they have reduced bodyfat from 12-18% to singe digit figures in 4 weeks. All of the guys on the CKD report little to no difference in energy levels after the first 10 days. The main benefit to these guys was no loss in muscle mass. (BJJ students)

The guys followed very strict 'refeeding' proceedures for 36 hours every week observing a 'maintenance' calorie intake during the re-feed stage. The guys used up the glycogen from the carb-up by the second day and entered ketosis for 3 days.

From an endurance perspective, I understand that using fat as a primary source of energy is not as efficient as glycogen. Most elite endurance athletes have low bodyfat% to start with so it would make it a bad source of energy anyway.

The thing is a lot of people come into this forum asking for weight loss tips. Most of the responses come from lean, experienced cyclists. Do a search and most people reply along the lines of "ride more and eat less". Thats like a kid asking an adult how they go about getting tall and getting the response, 'grow up'.

The bottom line is that I have seen first hand that people with excess body fat can have very fast and effective FAT loss results using a no-carb approach. Most people on a weight loss program don't eat enough calories to make the process sustainable. They end up losing big numbers initially due to water loss and even muscle loss if there isn't enough protein/BCAA in their diets.

So if your goal is to lose weight and particularly excess body fat, then CKD is well worth exploring. By incorporating the carb-up phase it makes it psychologically sustainable and it boosts energy levels every week. Yet another derivitive is to 'carb up' prior to each intense exercise session and then go back to no carbs in between.

Opinions please.

No carb and low carb diets are dangerous. As a primate you are designed to eat plants. Humans and chimpanzees share 99% of their DNA. Chimps in the wild eat 50% fruit and 40% leafy greens and of course they do not cook their food which destroys most of the nutrients. The closer you get to eating that way the healthier you will be. Eating large amounts of animal products is asking for trouble... and the animals don't like it.

 

[jagonz456]

I know its sounds simple but thats how math works its calories in VS calories out thats it. If you eat healthy Green food you can eat all you want and not have a weight problem. The people selling you the food want to complicated the whole process. don't keep eating food like substance. eat real food at least for 2 weeks nothing from a Can,Box or package just vegetables,fruits and fresh fish your body will love it.

 

[QikSmurf]

No carb and low carb diets are dangerous. As a primate you are designed to eat plants. Humans and chimpanzees share 99% of their DNA. Chimps in the wild eat 50% fruit and 40% leafy greens and of course they do not cook their food which destroys most of the nutrients. The closer you get to eating that way the healthier you will be. Eating large amounts of animal products is asking for trouble... and the animals don't like it.

I was hoping for more scientific responses. The above post is so removed from actual facts it doesn't really warrant a reply.

You may be interested to know that the human body doesn't require any carbohyrates to operate efficiently. There are so many studies done on modern day humans that prove this it's not funny. Do a search and enlighten yourself.

Google Lyle McDonald and read some facts about carbs.

Another example that comes to mind are the Inuit tribes. They eat virtually no carbs and live long healthy lives.

 

[QikSmurf]

I know its sounds simple but thats how math works its calories in VS calories out thats it.

Ah, actually that is NOT it at all. It is precisely that kind of thinking that has resulted in the highest % of overweight people in the western world.

Would it surprise you to know that you can lose considerable amounts of FAT without having a huge calorie deficit? Do you also know that you can have a calorie deficit and actually not lose FAT at all?

 

[alienator]

Well, it sounds like you're spoiling for a fight.

It's been shown time and time again that smaller portions and more exercise are the way to permanent weight loss. Diets haven't and don't work in the vast majority of cases. What you suggest is a diet.

Lyle McDonald's website is not a credible site: it's a commercial site, designed to promote and sell his books and other products. Full stop.

The data on life expectancy of the Inuit shows over all that Inuit life expectancy has stopped increasing. That could be for a host of reasons, and the study I checked says as much. Moreover, I'm not sure there's a study of any aboriginal people in the world that was controlled so that diet was the only independent variable in a study of life expectancy. Such a study can't be done, as aboriginal life styles vary in many more ways than just diet.

Your "evidence" is either not evidence or doesn't support your claim. You'll need actual scientific evidence.

 

[bulaboy]

You are right when you say that the body will run just fine in the absence of carbs. Not as efficiently though, and your energy levels will not be as high. The danger with most low or no carb diets is that people typically substitute large amounts of animal products in the diet. The consumption of animal products has been linked to cancer and heart disease, the top two leading causes of death in industrialized countries today.

This is a cycling forum. Cycling is an endurance sport. You will perform better and more efficiently on the bike with adequate carbohydrates in the diet. If you are trying to gather information then listen to what people have to say. If you want people to agree with you, you'll have better luck on a body building forum.

 

[64Paramount]

Ah, actually that is NOT it at all. It is precisely that kind of thinking that has resulted in the highest % of overweight people in the western world.

/snip

No, what has resulted in the highest percentage of overweight people is eating too much processed fast food, overeating in general, and lack of exercise.

Don't take my word on this; google it. There have been many studies done by health care providers, insurance carriers, etc.

 

[alienator]

No, what has resulted in the highest percentage of overweight people is eating too much processed fast food, overeating in general, and lack of exercise.

Don't take my word on this; google it. There have been many studies done by health care providers, insurance carriers, etc.

Yup. Processed foods aren't exactly what the doctor called for. That's why I only eat unprocessed food, like SPAM. SPAM comes out of pig in bricks like that. Honest.

 

[64Paramount]

Yup. Processed foods aren't exactly what the doctor called for. That's why I only eat unprocessed food, like SPAM. SPAM comes out of pig in bricks like that. Honest.

If I only had SPAM to eat, I would be very skinny........

 

[QikSmurf]

Well, it sounds like you're spoiling for a fight.

It's been shown time and time again that smaller portions and more exercise are the way to permanent weight loss. Diets haven't and don't work in the vast majority of cases. What you suggest is a diet.

Lyle McDonald's website is not a credible site: it's a commercial site, designed to promote and sell his books and other products. Full stop.

The data on life expectancy of the Inuit shows over all that Inuit life expectancy has stopped increasing. That could be for a host of reasons, and the study I checked says as much. Moreover, I'm not sure there's a study of any aboriginal people in the world that was controlled so that diet was the only independent variable in a study of life expectancy. Such a study can't be done, as aboriginal life styles vary in many more ways than just diet.

Your "evidence" is either not evidence or doesn't support your claim. You'll need actual scientific evidence.

Hey Alienator,

I'm actually not looking to cause an argument. I'm just constantly confronted with the question, 'what's the best way to lose weight?' Usually these people have tried various diets (including low carb etc) and had little success. Like others have said, the issue with low carb is that people often chose the wrong kind of animal product to eat.

I have found that a cyclic keto diet is a very effective way of shedding fat (not muscle).

In Australia at the moment we are bracing for the start of the football season. I help with conditioning work with one of the Brisbane Rugby League teams and most of the players had some off-season fat to lose. These guys are physically fit already and can't afford to lose muscle mass. A combination of CKD and carefully timed exercise routine can see fat loss of 2-3kg per week.

I was mearly asking for people's opinons and experience with such diets in the endurance world of cycling.

For the record I fully understand the benefit of good quality carbohydrates in endurance sports. I'm interested in 'evidence' - allbeit anecdotal - of people's experience of no/low carb diet and effect on endurance in balance with their goal to shed fat and/or body weight.

BTW I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I have followed your type of diet way back before it was more mainstream during my days of competing in bodybuilding. It is and was a very popular way of doing as you say, get leaner and maintain lean mass, and it was/is very effective. I have no problem for your initial post, but I personally would not apply it now in my cycling program. Training anaerobically is a different animal than aerobic training. If I "bonked" on the stationary bike in the gym while trying to get leaner for a bodybuilding competition is no harm (someone can walk me to the car ), but to bonk 50 miles from home/car is not a good thing.

I am not going to go into in depth discussion about this, though I could, because I need to go train now, but in summary I understand what you wrote and my public stance is that I would not put someone on that particular diet if they are really training hard for endurance events. Just trying to lose weight and that is the only goal I would consider it if the person really had a sticking point.

 

[jhuskey]

It takes energy to run the body and if everyone rode a TDF stage everyday we would have few fat people.
I will make one statement based on my experience, even though it has become a cliche, diets don't work in the long run. Each individual must find their own balance of calorie intake based on food types and exercise consistently as a lifestyle routine.

 

[taniwha]

Yup. Processed foods aren't exactly what the doctor called for. That's why I only eat unprocessed food, like SPAM. SPAM comes out of pig in bricks like that. Honest.

Liar! SPAM is always a dodecahedron when it comes out of the pig, it has to be trimmed a little as it's damn hard to wrap a can around a 12 sided shape.

 

[taniwha]

You are right when you say that the body will run just fine in the absence of carbs. Not as efficiently though, and your energy levels will not be as high. The danger with most low or no carb diets is that people typically substitute large amounts of animal products in the diet. The consumption of animal products has been linked to cancer and heart disease, the top two leading causes of death in industrialized countries today.

This is almost complete bunkum. An longer absence of carbs will almost invariably lead to various nutrient and vitamin deficiencies, unless you use multivitamins, etc. Plus you also get that yummy breath smelling like nail varnish remover as you body ejects via your lungs the excessive ketones produced.

Moderate consumption of animal products per se has not been linked to cancer and heart disease any more than almost any other food type. It is excessive consumption that causes problems, and not just of animal products.

And just remember fish ain't always the most safe or ethical choice in the world. Think by-catch (dolphins and albatross anyone?), toxin accumulation and species depletion (want some nice Atlantic Cod?)

Choices, choices. It all comes down to a sensible diet, calories in/calories out type thing.

 

[dhaxelbarqs]

If you want to lose weight and be lean and fit for life, you need the facts about alcohol and weight loss... If you already have a fat belly, the best option is to follow a healthy weight loss diet.

​

 

[jagonz456]

Ah, actually that is NOT it at all. It is precisely that kind of thinking that has resulted in the highest % of overweight people in the western world.

Would it surprise you to know that you can lose considerable amounts of FAT without having a huge calorie deficit? Do you also know that you can have a calorie deficit and actually not lose FAT at all?

calories in vs calories out is not the save all solution but it will make you more aware of the **** food your eating. Its not the a mount of calories its how you are getting your calories. like i said you can eat all the fruits,Nuts,grains and vegetables you want and not have to count calories. The problem is that most people rather read a box of food like substance in the super market instead of eating real none processed food. it doesn't matter how many calories are in can of spam lol its not food. If people would stop eating food in boxes, cans or packages and ate more fruit and vegetables like the rest of the world we wouldn't have the weight problem we do. I do what works for me and my family i grew up eating raw food and i will continue to do so.

 

[jhuskey]

If you want to lose weight and be lean and fit for life, you need the facts about alcohol and weight loss... If you already have a fat belly, the best option is to follow a healthy weight loss diet.

​

I don't believe all the research data on alcohol and have decided to do a comprehensive study on my own. Since an experiment needs a control I have asked for a couple of research volunteers to aid me. They need to be between 18-35 years of age female and hot.
Disclaimer: In case my wife is reading this it is just really, really silly stuff that I post some times and contains no link to reality.

 

[64Paramount]

Liar! SPAM is always a dodecahedron when it comes out of the pig, it has to be trimmed a little as it's damn hard to wrap a can around a 12 sided shape.

Hmmm, the dodecahedron shape reminds me of the black crystal mined by the Heptite Guild on Ballybran....