fat loss

[mattjf]

I've been reading on various weight lifting forums that high intensity interval training, such as 30 seconds hard interval followed by 30 seconds of recovery for 4 minutes (running, on a bike, whatever), for even only 4 minutes, tends to illicet greater fat burning than steady state aerobics? The claim is that while during exercise, very litttle fat is consumed for fuel, but you develop an "after burn" that tends to consume more fat throughout the rest of the day.

Is there any truth to this? This summer I'm going for fat loss more than performance. I'm riding a training plan of 5 days a week, 1 long day, etc. For the time being though, would it be worth it to just swtich to these short workouts?

 

[eisel]

no.

 

[vio765]

i think there is some truth to this. this afterburn you speak of is the metabolism in a heightened state. i would guess that this effect is at its peak for an hour or so (im not 100% sure about that, depends on the person), then slowly decreases over time. in my ameteur opinion, i would say that to get this effect (by doing these brief anaerobic intervals) would leave your body in a fatigued state. no prob if you let it recover. but if you do this every day, eventually you could hurt yourself or lead to a form of overtraining.

if fat loss is your goal, NOTHING beats a few weeks of very low-carb intake and regular, low-intensity aerobic work. now the warnings! you WILL lose muscle and you WILL have a short fuse. these are the two main problems. adding some light weight training will help counter the muscle loss, but dont expect miracles. this diet is rough and takes discipline. since your body holds so many grams of carbs, it will take a few days to deplete these stores. your body will basically be robbed of its primary fuel. so it will adapt by burning fat. this diet and lifestyle sucks ass, but you will see results relatively fast. and dont get too thrilled about your weight loss in the first few days; its just glycogen and some water. what you lose after the first few days is what you get excited about.

 

[FrankBattle]

It's bordering on blasphemous to suggest low-carb diet on a cycling forum.

How about just creating a suitable daily calorie deficiency either by, or in addition to, riding more???

Sheesh

 

[Albert 50]

It's bordering on blasphemous to suggest low-carb diet on a cycling forum.

How about just creating a suitable daily calorie deficiency either by, or in addition to, riding more???

Sheesh

Sounds good to me Franko, why do ppl try to reinvent the wheel?

 

[mikesbytes]

Weight lifters will recommend weights, cyclists will recommend cycling, runners will recommend running, etc etc. I'm a cross trainer and do all of the above and most things inbetween. Any form of exercise that burns calories or damages muscles will help you loose fat, however the effectiveness is very dependent on your diet.

 

[Felt_Rider]

From the studies that I have seen and from the effects that I have experienced by doing interval training it is my belief that there is greater amount of post exercise energy consumption (EPOC).

I am not discounting low intensity training, but a person can physically experience the thermodynamics of the HIIE or HIIT for a time period following training. I find myself sweating profusely following training and even beyond taking a cool shower. I can tell my metabolism is still racing. Low intensity training I find myself cooling off quickly nor do I feel the sensation of a faster metabolism yet I am sure the metabolism is up a little, but I cannot physically sense the metabolism as I can with HIIT.

I have prepared for many bodybuilding competitions using low intensity training, but when HIIT became more popular it became my favorite. I would endorse either based on the individuals goals / desires and available time per day.

All this obviously is based on the appropriate nutritional intake.


Link 1

Link 2 - This is an individual's thesis, but from what I briefed it looked valid

 

[FrankBattle]

Weight lifters will recommend weights, cyclists will recommend cycling, runners will recommend running, etc etc. I'm a cross trainer and do all of the above and most things inbetween. Any form of exercise that burns calories or damages muscles will help you loose fat, however the effectiveness is very dependent on your diet.

Very true. This is, afterall, a cycling forum. But you are right, the key is to create the deficiency however one can. Truth be told, you don't really even have to do anything if you can eat less than your BMR.

 

[mattjf]

Thanks for the replies.

I have pretty strong opinions on low-carb diets and the huge amount of protein that many weight lifters tend to take in.

I am in calorie deficit right now, and my nutrition is rather good (tracking everything via fitday).

Most of it was idle curiosity if the claims made are true.

 

[FrankBattle]

Thanks for the replies.

I have pretty strong opinions on low-carb diets and the huge amount of protein that many weight lifters tend to take in.

I am in calorie deficit right now, and my nutrition is rather good (tracking everything via fitday).

Most of it was idle curiosity if the claims made are true.

From personal experience, yes, the claims are true. In the winter for the past few years, I normally try to drop weight .. I start with the regular gyming (jogging, stationary bike) and the calorie tracking bit. I do this until the weight loss stabilizes (i.e. I reach a plateau). That's when I add low weight high intensity sessions with weights or whatever else gives me resistance.

The key is to find the right balance so you don't end up gaining weight (muscle weight) and defeating the original purpose.

But in short, yes, weight work can help you raise your metabolism, as another post suggested ..

 

[Felt_Rider]

I don't think I could achieve HIIT with weights though I know some people that say that they can.

I've been using a spinning class or using a spinning bike independent from class for short term interval training. That and using a stair machine or other type cardio equipment to get my heart rate into those upper zones.

I use my road or mt. bike to train in both upper and lower zones.

I can't seem to pull that off with weight training.
With weights I simply train old school method with heavier weight for moderate reps, but then again I am not aspiring to be a competitive cyclist.

I guess my point is that you can certainly achieve a win win situation by doing HIIT using a bike or spinning bike and not lift any weights at all. This would certainly seem to be a plus for a cycling purist.

 

[eisel]

From personal experience, yes, the claims are true. In the winter for the past few years, I normally try to drop weight .. I start with the regular gyming (jogging, stationary bike) and the calorie tracking bit. I do this until the weight loss stabilizes (i.e. I reach a plateau). That's when I add low weight high intensity sessions with weights or whatever else gives me resistance.
But in short, yes, weight work can help you raise your metabolism, as another post suggested ..

Also raises your hunger level. If your adding to your current load all you did was increase calories burned for the week. You did it a good way by helping your body build muscle instead of decreasing your calories more. I'm often puzzled by why people tend to get heavier in the winter and have to loose weight every year. I understand less exercise but wouldn't it make sense to eat less as well? EPOC is not as much as you would think. Easily negated by a mismeasurment in calories.

 

[DCWD]

I'm often puzzled by why people tend to get heavier in the winter and have to loose weight every year. I understand less exercise but wouldn't it make sense to eat less as well?

For me, it's a question of habbits (ie, I like beer a lot). All told though, I've dropped only a few pounds since I started riding again about 4-5 years ago, but I've gone from a 38" waist to a 33" waist; quads getting a respectable bit larger and my times getting a bit faster.

For me, I notice the big drops in weight and waistline in the week following a century or other sustained effort. Intervals workouts just don't drop much weight regardless of my diet. I've tried weeks with salads and water (calorie deprevation), weeks of carbs, weeks with low carbs and high protein...

What I have found this year is that if I eat moderate amounts of carbs BEFORE and WHILE I ride and I eat protein AFTER I ride, I seem to be building a bit of muscle mass (I get a little faster), I drop a little weight (about 1lb/week), and I feel healthy and energetic; my pants feel better.

Anyway, so if I gain a few extra pounds this winter I'll do the New Years century (spinning 33 laps around a 3 mile loop) and give up a few beers a week. We'll see how it goes, but I've got another 3 or 4 months to drink beer and enjoy the rides. ...not in that order, of course.

 

[wilmar13]

Also raises your hunger level. If your adding to your current load all you did was increase calories burned for the week.

Careful, you are likely to get flamed using logic with something as nonsensical as most people's idea of how to lose weight. I think people get so used to associating "working out" with working off what they ate, that they get locked in to the thought they need to workout more to have a calorie deficit.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

I realize I've gotten into this discussion a little late but I will attempt to address some of the concerns listed in this thread.

I've been reading on various weight lifting forums that high intensity interval training, such as 30 seconds hard interval followed by 30 seconds of recovery for 4 minutes (running, on a bike, whatever), for even only 4 minutes, tends to illicet greater fat burning than steady state aerobics? The claim is that while during exercise, very litttle fat is consumed for fuel, but you develop an "after burn" that tends to consume more fat throughout the rest of the day.

Is there any truth to this? This summer I'm going for fat loss more than performance. I'm riding a training plan of 5 days a week, 1 long day, etc. For the time being though, would it be worth it to just swtich to these short workouts?

Yes, there is some truth to this. A good while back there was a poster named Biker_Linz who is now an associate of RST (Ric Stern Training). He stated that the science supported that the intervals were a better method for fat loss than steady state training because of metabolic factors rather than direct calorie burning during exercise. Here are a couple of the links he posted ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=11319629

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=8028502

I don't doubt the soundness of the studies or their findings. However, as a 46 year old recreational cyclist, I know that there is no way I could do HIIT on a daily basis. I would be suffereing from chronic fatigue in no time. So for guys like me (the hopelessly unfit ) there is a place in one's exercise regimen for steady state, LSD & active recovery.

MattJF, since you read what you stated on some weightlifting forums, they may or may not have any "athletic" goals in mind other than just leaning out for cosmetic purposes. As such, much of the training they may recommend may not have much of any athetic carryover to a particular athletic event, unless you consider sled pulling an athletic event. To my knowledge there isn't a cycling coach worth their salt that will recommend the Tabata protocol. If one wants atheltic carryover to their event there are better methods than 30 seconds on and 30 off for 4 minutes. That certainly won't get one far in the cycling community.

I have pretty strong opinions on low-carb diets and the huge amount of protein that many weight lifters tend to take in.

Yeah, me too. I'm not in favor of them. In fact I think it's nuts. 1.2 to 1.8 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight is more than enough for an "active" person. TdF athletes can consume up to 2.0 grams as what they are doing is beyond superhuman. So if one is moderately active 1.2 grams should be the goal. If one is hard core then 1.8 will suffice.

That being said, there is one big advantage to a high protein diet and that is that protein is being consumed rather than carbs. Understand that I am in no way endorsing an Atkins styled diet, but most Americans (something like 70%) don't tolerate carbs to well. Even with a slight calorie deficit it's hard to lose weight when one's insulin levels are jacked all the time. So all calories are not created equal when counting and going into deficit.

I don't think I could achieve HIIT with weights though I know some people that say that they can.

I have managed it but man is it difficult. Not something I would want to do all the time to be sure. Not only was it too taxing, but there is a greater risk of injury while trying to do the types of compound movements necessary to get the heart rate up.

I'd have to dig through my journal to find the workout but it was basically fast supersets with little rest. I did 5 sets of bent over rows supersetted with cleans from the thighs and push presses using only 115 lbs! By the end of that 5 sets my HR was at 90% of my known cycling maximum. I had to slow it down after that as I was just too winded. The next superset was 5 sets of BB shrugs supersetted with bent over laterals. The final superset was EZ-Bar curls supersetted with DB French presses. That was the easy one. My average HR for the brief but deliciously difficult workout was 80% of max.

Once cycling season is over and the weather gets too cold I'm going to be doing some more experiments of this type. Should be fun.

Careful, you are likely to get flamed using logic with something as nonsensical as most people's idea of how to lose weight.

What? You mean I can't just go on the Special-K diet, or some other chick diet?! I have to work too?

For me, it's a question of habbits (ie, I like beer a lot)

Yeah, I like it too. The problem with alcohol is that it tends to metabolize differently than regular carbs and leads to greater stores of visceral fat. This is why some otherwise skinny beer drinkers can have a gut. Visceral fat is also the type of fat that can lead to cardiovascular disease. I still enjoy a cold one or two every now and then though.

Weight lifters will recommend weights, cyclists will recommend cycling, runners will recommend running, etc etc.

This is quite true. There are many ways to accomplish one's fat loss goals.

The cycling and running methods are to burn the fat away and stay light and lean. The bodybuilding way is to build muscle while letting the extra lean body mass burn the calories. Each has value, but I don't think many cyclists will want to carry around a lot of upper body weight as it won't help them at all (unless they fall off the bike).

 

[mikesbytes]

Can you post a link to your fitday.

 

[davidbod]

I'm not sure why so many people get worked up over the words "low carb diet". If you look at all of the cycling nutrition and diet books they all basically indicate that you need a set amount of protien and fat and that your carb intake should be regulated based on your energy needs for fat loss, recovery, energy for training / racing etc. In a strict sense this is a carb controlled diet and when you need to regulate the carbs to reduce energy for weight loss then it is a reduced carb or low carb diet. It all depends on how much weight you need to lose as to whether it ends up being a controlled, reduced or low carb diet, however in the end its all the same principle.

From my own experience, unless your riding 3+ hours 4-5 days a week, you need far fewer carbs than most people would think. The key is to figure out how much energy you need for recovery so you can still train and lose weight as well.

 

[mikesbytes]

I'm not sure why so many people get worked up over the words "low carb diet". If you look at all of the cycling nutrition and diet books they all basically indicate that you need a set amount of protien and fat and that your carb intake should be regulated based on your energy needs for fat loss, recovery, energy for training / racing etc. In a strict sense this is a carb controlled diet and when you need to regulate the carbs to reduce energy for weight loss then it is a reduced carb or low carb diet. It all depends on how much weight you need to lose as to whether it ends up being a controlled, reduced or low carb diet, however in the end its all the same principle.

From my own experience, unless your riding 3+ hours 4-5 days a week, you need far fewer carbs than most people would think. The key is to figure out how much energy you need for recovery so you can still train and lose weight as well.

Why do we disagree on low carb diets?

You pretty much answered your own question. Carbs are a good source of energy for 3+ hour rides. Reducing carbs will usually result in weight lost AND often results in poorer performance. BUT once the target weight is acheived, you can put carbs back in the diet and your performance will bounce back.