Fat loss

[Bike N Ski]

Anyone do their recovery rides on an empty stomach first thing in the morning?

I did that last year with good success in losing weight. Unfortunately, it did nothing to help me build my FTP and I felt over trained most of the season. I put on muscle very easy and along with %BF dropping I lost quite of bit of lean muscle mass built from my alpine ski workout sessions(gym) during the winter. Looking back, I shouldn't have done these lipolysis rides for 3+ hours(w/carb intake after 1 hour). I should of limited them to 1 - 1.5 hrs. and I probably would have been OK. Last year I struggled to get 800 TSS a week. Currently for this week I have 1143 TSS and I'm going to finish today with a +350 tempo ride. What the guys say here really works as my FTP jumped 21%(only 2 yrs. training with power meter/TP software) this season and I feel fresh for each ride. Although my %BF isn't down to where it was last year at this time, my power numbers are up across the board.

 

[root]

Don't buy into the "fat burning zone" myths. Yes, you burn a higher percentage of fat at lower exercise intensities but you burn a higher total amount of calories and even a higher total amount of fat calories when you work out at the higher end of the aerobic range. Basically it's equivalent to asking whether you'd like 90% of $100 or 70% of $200, which is the better deal?

Well, you are sort of contradicting yourself. On one end you say good luck doing all your rides at L4/L5 level. And I completely agree with that. No one can do that day in and day out. Hence, the question above should be what burns more calories, 1 hour at L4 level or 6 hours at L2?

I'd say 6 hrs at L2, and the nice thing is you can do 6 hrs at L2 day every day. I certainly did when touring, up to 12 hours a day actually.

However, if you only have one hour to train, then and only then spending that hour in L4 is better than spending it at L2 level (i.e. it burns more calories). However, even then you might not be able to do L4 effort each day. So, the gist of it is, if you don't have time to train, you are screwed .

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Well, you are sort of contradicting yourself. On one end you say good luck doing all your rides at L4/L5 level. And I completely agree with that. No one can do that day in and day out. Hence, the question above should be what burns more calories, 1 hour at L4 level or 6 hours at L2?....

Now we're diving down the rabbit hole of definitions and semantics. If you look at a lot of the published diet books and on line advice that advocates the "fat burning zone" you'll see it barely makes the upper reaches of Coggan's L1 much less L2. You'll see recommendations for walks over jogs because they "burn more fat". Look at the bogus HR zone graphs imprinted on many gym treadmills and ergs and ask yourself if staying in their fat burning zone takes you into L2, it doesn't get me close. The OP was talking about extending his recovery rides on just that premise which makes it neither training nor recovery.

My only argument with six hour L2 rides as a weight loss strategy is the common tendency for cyclists to dramatically overeat after really long rides. Sure bike touring is probably very different, especially if you're traveling self contained. I sure dropped an awful lot of weight on high altitude mountaineering expeditions even though I ate about as much as I could tolerate every day but it's not really what folks here are talking about and FWIW I never kept any of that weight off once I got home with more normal energy expenditures and abundant calories.

I like the way kmavm put it, "Train to get stronger, eat to get leaner.."

-Dave

 

[frost]

My only argument with six hour L2 rides as a weight loss strategy is the common tendency for cyclists to dramatically overeat after really long rides.
-Dave

Greg Lemond was actually talking about this in a past issue of Pro Cycling. (I cannot find the magazine so cannot quote exactly) he said long rides relieve certain stress hormones which tend to lead overeating.

 

[Spunout]

1. Fat burning is a continuum. What you burn in Zone 2, you also burn in zones 4 and 5. Of course, you can do more zone 2 in a week without cracking compared to zone 4/5.

2. Fat burns in the flame of carbohydrates. Think about it. Fuel your fire.

3. Ride lots and don't eat ****.

4. Fuel your rides properly, don't bonk, this prevents binge-eating (usually ****) immediately following a ride.

 

[Steve_B]

Greg Lemond ... said long rides relieve certain stress hormones which tend to lead overeating.

I don't know if there's any real proof of that but I can definitely believe it.

 

[MIHECH]

Dave, what do you eat exactly after a workout and through the day (if it is not a secret)? I assume vegetables, fruits, nuts, lean meat, etc. (trough the day) ? My recovery meal consists of puffed wheat with some skim milk (any idea if this is good?).

 

[Spunout]

FWIW, get Monique Ryan's book on Nutrition for Endurance Athletes. it explains much, and provides great guidance in g/kg COH for many pre-during-post workout guides.

Wenzel Coaching also has a very, very good paper on nutrition for their athletes.

 

[Meek One]

OP here. Got a quick question. If I do a longish L2 or L3, but suck down a couple bottles of 'energy' drink, am I burning much fat at all or simply the simple sugars I am ingesting follwed by the glycogen/fat mix...

 

[daveryanwyoming]

OP here. Got a quick question. If I do a longish L2 or L3, but suck down a couple bottles of 'energy' drink, am I burning much fat at all or simply the simple sugars I am ingesting follwed by the glycogen/fat mix...

You'll be burning quite a bit of fat at an L2/L3 pace.

As someone else pointed out you've really got to consider overall calories per day, not the specific breakdown of energy sources during your workouts.

Look at it this way, in addition to your riding you burn calories during your daily activities and burn calories simply to stay alive. There's a lot of ways to tally your baseline energy needs like BMR, RMR, etc. but the point is you'll have to find the calories to just get through the day in addition to your workouts. And most of the day you'll be at an intensity level that mostly burns fat.

So let's say your RMR or RMR plus typical non athletic daily activities requires 2000 Calories. You add a 2000 Calorie workout session on top of that for a total of say 4000 Calories burned over 24 hours. Let's say you replace 3500 of those Calories througout the day including what you eat and drink while working out. You'll be running a net 500 Calorie per day deficit. Where do you think your body finds those extra 500 Calories beyond what you've ingested that it needs to get through the day? Yeah, it comes from our abundant fat stores. IOW, as long as you maintain a caloric deficit over the long haul your body will have to mine its fat reserves to keep you going.

Maintain that 500 Calorie deficit for a full week and you'll burn a pound of fat. You won't burn a pound of carbs and unless you seriously starve yourself and neglect to keep your glycogen topped up you won't burn a pound of protein. You just don't have those kind of reserves stored anywhere in your body, but you've got plenty of fat to burn (no insult, we all do) and that's the body's preferred fuel source during those 20 plus hours when you're not out exercising.

Keep an eye on the big picture, fuel yourself before, during and after your workouts so you can keep doing them throughout the week and focus on overall daily caloric balance to lose weight which includes "fork control" as someone pointed out.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[Meek One]

Thanks again Dave.

 

[Felt_Rider]

The following link reflects my typical schedule.
I am not going to make a blanket statement that it will work for everyone because there are so many factors and individual goals, but perhaps it may be helpful as insight to some folks. The schedule reflects what has already been stated and I find the following guidelines helpful in my daily routine for lifting and/or cycling.

• Prepare meals ahead of schedule. Normally I prepare meals the night before and load them into containers to take with me to work.
• Eat smaller frequent meals spaced 2 to 3 hours apart.
• Eat enough carbohydrates for glycogen replacement and recovery, but restrain from over saturating.
• Eat or drink quality proteins.
• Understand nutritional timing. (window of opportunity)
• Understand lean muscle impacts BMR.

There are other factors, but these are the most important to me.

Link

(my practical experience resume at the bottom of the blog post)

 

[Steve_B]

As someone else pointed out you've really got to consider overall calories per day, not the specific breakdown of energy sources during your workouts.

At some point two years ago or so, someone asked the panel on Cycling News Form and Fitness page similar questions. Pam Hinton said not to worry about the composition too much (within reason) because your body will find a way to get the mix that it needs, be it fat, glycogen, protein, etc. Just run a reasonable caloric deficit with a good mix of nutrients and it should sort itself out. (I can't find the specific page right now.) That alone suggests to me to burn as many calories/kJ as you can, in whatever way you find palatable, rather than chumming away in L1 for hours because you are using less glycogen there.

Another way of looking at this is that true weight loss happens over time - weeks and months and years - not over the course of a day. (When you lose measurable weight over the course of a single long ride, it's primarily from water and glycogen loss and not so much fat.) If it were fat that we were losing on those long rides, I think our approach to this stuff would be somewhat different. Instead of replacing our water losses, we'd be replacing our fat losses (with an appropriate deficit, of course).

 

[Steve_B]

4. Fuel your rides properly, don't bonk, this prevents binge-eating (usually ****) immediately following a ride.

I have noticed too. If I eat something during the ride, just a little bit, I'm less likely to come home ravenous and delirious.

 

[Steve_B]

If you look at a lot of the published diet books and on line advice that advocates the "fat burning zone" you'll see it barely makes the upper reaches of Coggan's L1 much less L2. You'll see recommendations for walks over jogs because they "burn more fat". Look at the bogus HR zone graphs imprinted on many gym treadmills and ergs and ask yourself if staying in their fat burning zone takes you into L2, it doesn't get me close.

I think that they do not want to be responsible for large quantities of sedentary people geetting off the couch, immediately undertaking a very stenuous program and then either burning out on it or worse, having a heart attack.