Figures etc at SafeSpeed



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On 20 Feb 2003 12:02:26 GMT, "Arthur Clune" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>: Actually, I see it as an argument by observation. I don't really understand what you think I'm
>: "asserting".

>That's the point. You can't analyse data "by observation". I look at that data and (naively and by
>eye, like you are doing it) see no change in the trend at that point. You have to justify it.

I'll see what more I can do to develop that.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

> Try a little noise reduction or refer to graphs:
>
> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/stats/graphs.html
>
> 3.2 and 3.3
>
> Seems clear enough to me.

These are trend lines which you admitted were a mistake a few posts ago. Not only are they are still
there but you are referring to them as evidence of a change around 92/93. So, are they a mistake or
not? If they are then it clearly isn't clear enough. If they are not then why did you say that they
are a mistake which would be removed?

That ****** Colin
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:10:03 -0000, Colin Blackburn <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>
>> Try a little noise reduction or refer to graphs:
>>
>> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/stats/graphs.html
>>
>> 3.2 and 3.3
>>
>> Seems clear enough to me.

>These are trend lines which you admitted were a mistake a few posts ago. Not only are they are
>still there but you are referring to them as evidence of a change around 92/93. So, are they a
>mistake or not? If they are then it clearly isn't clear enough. If they are not then why did you
>say that they are a mistake which would be removed?

Ignore the black trend lines by all means. The red data lines are complete, correct and valid.

>That ****** Colin

--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
>
> Very good. Now read
>
> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html
>
> And tell me what's caused (or might have caused) the deadly change in trend.

What caused the clearly observable change in trend in about 1978 which resulted in an above average
reduction in accident rate? (Your graph 1 (the DfT stuff, not the meaningless straight lines).

What caused the trend line to return to its 1950 to 1978 rate in about 1992?

Were all cameras removed in 1978 and no-one noticed?

Drawing straight lines on the graphs to justify a contention is not proving the contention. If you
want to analyse the data then please do it properly. It does require more than a helix 6" ruler and
one of those pens with 12 different colours -- not surprisingly.

If you cannot analyse the data but still hate cameras you could try some of the suggestions that
can be found elsewhere -- such as hairspraying your number plate, adding additional, false plates
or blowing the things up. At least that way you would get out more and not fill the Usenet with
puerile ****.

T
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:29:53 -0000, "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Drawing straight lines on the graphs to justify a contention is not proving the contention. If you
>want to analyse the data then please do it properly. It does require more than a helix 6" ruler and
>one of those pens with 12 different colours -- not surprisingly.

>If you cannot analyse the data but still hate cameras you could try some of the suggestions that
>can be found elsewhere -- such as hairspraying your number plate, adding additional, false plates
>or blowing the things up. At least that way you would get out more and not fill the Usenet with
>puerile ****.

That's constructive.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
"Roger Thorpe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Ok, here it goes. Put baldly your argument seems to be that there was a change in the rate of fall
> in casualties per km in 1993 and that the only event that can have caused this was the "speed
> kills" campaign.

snip

> 3./ Many other things have changed since 1993, some irrelevant (price of cheese, negative
> equity etc)

No, wait. You may have something here. Negative equity kicks in, people are suddenly poorer than
they thought so have to drive old clunkers that struggle to break the speed limit instead of
'proper' cars full of 'safety' doo-fers. So the drivers, now all obeying the speed limit fall asleep
at the wheel out of shear boredom and hence the accident rate increases. Yes -- now all we need is a
statistics genius to do the sums.

Of couse, reduced consumption of cheese due to increased prices may have reduced dream sleep hence
drivers were less refreshed -- hence fell asleep through bordom etc.

> and some others that may be significant ( number of 4x4s on the road, number of school runs,
> weather, use of ABS, fall in number of cyclists, spread of mobile phone use, alcopops,
> ecstasy......) To pick on your own hobby horse as the cause is plain
silly.
>
> Lets make speeding as unacceptable as drink driving.

Let's make drinking more acceptable than driving??
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:00:48 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> > http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html
>>> >
>>> > Comments welcome. (not cross posted)
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> Which table on the govt website did the figures in your graph come from? I'd like to look at the
>>> original figures.
>>
>> Table 9.10 on:
>>
>> http://www.transtat.dft.gov.uk/tables/tsgb02/9/section9.htm
>>
>> seems to be the source, it certainly contains the same numbers.
>>
>> I'd be interested in anyone else finding this almost constant factor of the year on year change
>> of fatalities per billion km travelled.
>>
>
>Try the following:
>
>Plot log(accident rate) against year.
>
>Now do a least squares regression fit against each 10 year period to attempt to eliminate
>the noise.
>
>For the 10 year periods ending 1967 through 1984 the decrease appears to lie between about
>4.5% and 5%
>
>1985 through 1990 its around about 6%
>
>1991 through 1998 its about 6.5% to 7.5%
>
>1999 its about 6% 2000 4.5% 2001 3.5%
>
>The long period makes it hard to pinpoint when changes occured.
>
>Using a five year period rather than a 10 year period makes the noise far more aparent.
>
>But the periods ending 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 are exceptionally good. Prior to the advent of speed
>cameras, only the period ending 1988 achieved such good results. (1968 excluded)
>
>
>If I had to guess what these stats meant given only the information that speed cameras were
>introduced in 1991 then I would say that 1992 through 1996 they were were working on eliminating
>many speed implicated accidents. By 1997/98 most of these speeders had been removed from the roads
>and only the hard core remained.

A theory which is entirely unsupported by the facts. Data below.

>The dramatic dip in 2001 corresponds quite closely with what I remember about the campaign against
>"stealth tax" and starting to paint the cameras yellow. I don't believe that that change was
>completed until end 2002 so I would expect to see another couple of bad years data. (There you are
>- a prediction you can test my analysis against :)

see:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/stats/graphs.html

graphs 2.6 and 2.7. They seem to pinpoint the "knee".

Also see graph 1.1 which shows recession / recovery in 1975 - 1978 and 1989 to 1993.

Also see:

Vehicle speeds in GB

http://www.transtat.dft.gov.uk/tables/2002/vsgb/vsgb.htm

Which only shows minor increases in speed limit compliance over the period.

Also see:

Road offences data:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb303.pdf

More later, thanks for your reply.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:59:41 -0000, "W K" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >> Since this is a constant scale factor it is exponential. Exponential functions show as
>> >> straight lines on log graphs.
>>
>> >My point was that the only theoretical basis for doing this would be if there is an exponential
>> >function relating the two. Its all very well doing this with fundamentals in physics etc. but
>> >anything so complex - related to wealth, attitudes, levels of safety features, population trends
>> >and working trends - one simple mathematical formula is rather unlikely to work

>> The formula correctly and safely describes the curve for a long period.

>Which of course could be sheer luck, or the fact that you farted about on your spreadsheet until
>you saw what you wanted to.

Sheer luck? If it was, there'd be no point in trying to alter it and road safety efforts would all
be wasted for ever.

I didn't have to fart about with a spreadsheet to reveal the trends. I had to fart about with a
spreadsheet to quantify, qualify and present the trends.

By all means fart about with the spreadsheet I've already made and try and provide evidence of a
different case.

>>Of course there are many factors which have contributed. 5% pa is a correct description of a long
>>term human achievement. But we've suddenly stopped achieving. Isn't that evidence in itself that
>>we've "gone down the wrong road"?

>Only if you can isolate one factor - which of course you cannot because you reject basic tenets of
>scientific and analytical thinking. as "simplification"

You may not have to isolate one factor to come up with a neat and accurate description. You might be
able to describe a group or factors collectively. It may well not be a problem of isolation. It's
very likely to be a problem of categorisation.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 20 Feb 2003 02:19:53 -0800, [email protected] (Guy Chapman) wrote:
>
> >> And tell me what's caused (or might have caused) the deadly change in trend.
>
> >Increased selfishness Increased aggression More airbags More ABS Jeremy Clarkson Congestion on
> >the motorways Reduced police numbers (unrelated to cameras - all public services were cut back
> >over the period) Increasing car use for short journeys
>
> But you cannot safely link any of those things to the period in question.

You cannot safely link 1993 with speed cameras. Yes there were some, but when did they become
widespread. You also cannot link 1993 (or any year as it doesn't exist) to mass hysteria caused by a
few government safety ads.
 
Paul Smith wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:45:15 -0000, "Michael MacClancy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Further to discussions yesterday I have made a draft page and spreadsheet available concerning
> >> the UK's loss of previous fatal accident trend in 1993.
>
> >> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html
>
> >> Comments welcome. (not cross posted)
>
> >Oh no, I haven't seen a post from P**l S***h for weeks. I've killfiled him and blocked the
> >thread. I urge everyone else to do the same.
>
> That's it! Do the ostrich!

What a hypocritical *plonk*er.

John B
 
"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:39:22 -0000, "W K" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >> >Have you any theoretical basis for putting the casualty figures as
log
> >> >> >graphs etc. ?
>
> >> >> Yes. The annual reduction in fatalities rate has stayed at around 5% per annum for most of
> >> >> the period. Such a constant factor reduction shows on a log scale graph as a straight line.
> >> >> That makes any change in trend more obvious. (log graphs are also given with a
conventional
> >> >> scale for the suspicious)
>
> >> >Its been a while since I did any maths, but I thought the purpose of a logarithmic scale was
> >> >to make straightlines out of power functions not constants?
>
> >> Since this is a constant scale factor it is exponential. Exponential functions show as straight
> >> lines on log graphs.
>
> >My point was that the only theoretical basis for doing this would be if there is an exponential
> >function relating the two. Its all very well doing this with fundamentals in physics etc. but
anything
> >so complex - related to wealth, attitudes, levels of safety features, population trends and
> >working trends - one simple mathematical formula is rather unlikely to work
>
> The formula correctly and safely describes the curve for a long period.

Which of course could be sheer luck, or the fact that you farted about on your spreadsheet until you
saw what you wanted to.

>Of course there are many factors which have contributed. 5% pa is a correct description of a long
>term human achievement. But we've suddenly stopped achieving. Isn't that evidence in itself that
>we've "gone down the wrong road"?

Only if you can isolate one factor - which of course you cannot because you reject basic tenets of
scientific and analytical thinking. as "simplification"

> >You might not even be able to get a good graph of V versus I for a light bulb.
>
> Filament temperature is a factor.

Give the man a big orange.
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:39:19 -0000, "W K" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 20 Feb 2003 02:19:53 -0800, [email protected] (Guy Chapman) wrote:
>>
>> >> And tell me what's caused (or might have caused) the deadly change in trend.
>>
>> >Increased selfishness Increased aggression More airbags More ABS Jeremy Clarkson Congestion on
>> >the motorways Reduced police numbers (unrelated to cameras - all public services were cut back
>> >over the period) Increasing car use for short journeys
>>
>> But you cannot safely link any of those things to the period in question.
>
>You cannot safely link 1993 with speed cameras. Yes there were some, but when did they become
>widespread.

Sure I can. It's exactly the right time. What I can't do is prove causality.

>You also cannot link 1993 (or any year as it doesn't exist) to mass hysteria caused by a few
>government safety ads.

The installation of the early cameras is the link that enabled (or possibly caused) government road
safety policy to shift to "speed kills".
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> >You cannot safely link 1993 with speed cameras. Yes there were some, but when did they become
> >widespread.
>
> Sure I can. It's exactly the right time.

Go on then. Year on year figures for how many were in operation each year from 1992 to the
present day.

1993 was not the right time.

I have vague memories of seeing one in 1994 or later on the M40/M4 or somewhere just inside the M25.
There really were bugger all of them back then.
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:56:45 -0000, "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> That's constructive.

>Answer the substantive question. Why the change in trend in 1978 and the return to trend in 1993
>(based on numbers on your site)

You want information from me? Then learn to be polite.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
On 20 Feb 2003 07:12:23 -0800, [email protected] (Guy Chapman) wrote:

>Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...

>Note that the URL got mangled, should have been <http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=-
>UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&th=5a1154d318427c3e&seekm=g8255v8cupc8ojs2cvjheiu16tpaofkaej%404ax.com>

>Never forget, cameras CANNOT cause accidents. Bad drivers responding inappropriately to cameras
>can, but cameras ABSOLUTELY CANNOT cause accidents.

That assertion is entirely a matter of definition.

The policies which speed cameras support can easily cause deaths.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving
 
"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You want information from me? Then learn to be polite.

No.

I asked a substantive question to point out that the one 'kink' in your graph that you are so
exercised by is reflected by a very similar 'kink' in the opposite direction in or around 1978. As
you refuse to answer I must assume you don't have a clue!!

Your web site is the ramblings of a confused mind trying desperately to justify an assertion that a
law enforcement device is a menace to society.

Speed cameras are there to enforce the law. The law itself may be an ass, in particular one can
criticise particular speed limits being applied to particular stretches of road. You can argue for
the increasing or decreasing of limits. But the law is absolute. Speed and you are breaking
it (Ido quite often so I am not whiter than white here). Getting caught is a hazard every
lawbreaker takes.

But to try to allocate to cameras responsibility for a relatively small variation in road traffic
KSI figures is, frankly, lu-lu.. (And as far as I can see you are, in fact, arguing there is a
deviation in the trend or derivative -- not even in the figures themselves). This is especially
the case when, firstly, the variation is small enough to fall within the noise band and,
secondly, thousands of other technical and social changes will also have contributed to changes
in road safety.

Now, not everything you say is rubbish (though a worryingly large proportion
iu). You would like more policing -- OK. (Though your desire for a funny handshake to work wonders
is madness). Well, sorry, but Plods are now so few in number that they have given up deterring
crime and now just rush from major incident to major incident. Not just their fault -- some
******* politicians took a chunk of their cash away.

You would like better training of drivers -- but ignore the fact that countries with more thorough
training (e.g. Germany) have worse accident figures.

Sorry if you don't like me pointing out that your concentration on just one part of the road safety
argument is a Volvo short of a brake pedal. Sorry if you don't like me dismissing your statistical
analysis as ammature at best, incompetent at least and possibly fraudulent in effect.

Nothing in this thread has anything to do with cycling. I appreciate that you have not crossposted
it to uk.boyracers but its relevance to cycling is at least marginal except to the extent that some
maniac motorist may lose control of his vehicle & slam into a cyclist (getting a bit remote!!)

Cameras are an example of a Stupidity Tax. They were pretty bloody obvious when they were painted
battleship grey. Now they are dayglo yellow you have to be both speeding and driving without due
care to be caught.

For me the car is a wonderful tool of everyday life -- dirty, expensive and dangerous, but a vital
tool. But it is not so wonderful that it is the passport to perfect freedom or even necessary for
everyday existence. To elevate it to such mystical levels is stupid.

Now answer the question.

T
 
Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> >Never forget, cameras CANNOT cause accidents. Bad drivers responding inappropriately to cameras
> >can, but cameras ABSOLUTELY CANNOT cause accidents.

> That assertion is entirely a matter of definition.

Yes, I would agree - by the definition of the word "cause," a camera ABSOLUTELY CANNOT cause an
accident. A bad driver who is breaking the law and reacts inappropriately when he sees a camera - he
can easily cause an accident. But then, he could just as easily cause an accident by reacting
inappropriately to something else.

> The policies which speed cameras support can easily cause deaths.

By forcing people to drive badly? I don't think so. Nobody's promoting bad driving as a lifestyle
choice (well, nobody in the Government; Clarkson is another matter). Unfortunately they're not
promoting good driving either, but that has nothing to do with cameras.
 
Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Further to discussions yesterday I have made a draft page and spreadsheet available concerning the
> UK's loss of previous fatal accident trend in 1993.
>
> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html
>
> Comments welcome. (not cross posted)
Your mathematics may be correct (although I dispute the validity of picking arbitrary trend lines
based on the overall change between two arbitrary years; you have not demonstrated that there is a
statistically significant change since 1993; the data points are well-distributed and the chances of
seeing a 'trend' such as the one you identify purely by blind chance are all too present. The onus
is on you to show that the trend is not attributable to lady luck if you wish to use these figures
to support a case for change in public policy).

Any such analysis should anticipate a gradual fall in the year-on-year percentage change since the
eventual outcome of any road safety policy will be to leave us with a residual level of accidents
that reflect human and technical inadequacy (we will never achieve an accident-free road network
while humans drive, walk and cycle). Each new development in road safety may reasonably be expected
to cause a temporary spike in this for a few years as their impact is felt and then, over subsequent
years, the rate of change will fall away as there is no new advance to reduce the figures.

Even if I grant that that the maths is acceptable, the conclusions you draw from it hold no water.

Your assertion that speed cameras and the speed kills policy are the only possible cause is at worst
ridiculous and at best an assertion unsupported by any causal evidence. The statement that it must
be true because it is the only reasonable cause is infantile, and your attempt to hide such a random
leap of illogic within a mass of reasonable-sounding mathematice akin to the defenses of Astrology
that are littered astronomical terms to impress the gullible.

So let me offer you one alternative hypothesis. In 1992 the Ford Escort was first fitted with an
airbag. This happened on a few K reg models (available Autumn 1993) and became more widespread over
subsequent years (http://www.parkers.co.uk/pricing/used_options/usedoptions.asp?model_id=389).
Airbags became widely available in the Vauxhall Astra in 1993
(http://www.parkers.co.uk/pricing/used_options/usedoptions.asp?model_id=234). These 2 cars account
for a large percentage of UK sales. This is not the first introduction of airbags into UK cars, but
it is when they became common.

1993 as a year saw a large percentage reduction in the percentage change of fatalities per billion
vehicle miles (roughly 1% compared to .6% in 1991). This reflects the impact of airbags in reducing
the fatalities of drivers. Since then the percentage change of deaths per billion KM has been
dropping away steadily. I put this down to drivers adapting to the presence of airbags, feeling
safer as a result and driving less safely (there are figures below to support this).

Mr. Smith, you are selling snake oil. Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors.

- Richard Waters

Year Bill. deaths death rate percentage change in death vehicle per vehicle rate per mile miles mile
1992 412.1 4,229 10.2615494 -0.837332209 1993 412.2 3,814 9.252610333 -1.008939067 1994 422.6 3,650
8.637008992 -0.615601341 1995 430.9 3,621 8.404082978 -0.232926014 1996 442.5 3,598 8.131073446
-0.273009532 1997 452.5 3,599 7.95359116 -0.177482286 1998 459.2 3,421 7.449912892 -0.503678268 1999
466.0 3,423 7.345272889 -0.104640003 2000 467.7 3,409 7.288860381 -0.056412508 2001 473.7 3,450
7.283090564 -0.005769817
 
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