Fine line between over/undertraining?

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by [email protected], Mar 11, 2005.

  1. 5'10", 23 M, 190 (reasonably lean, but have gained some 'winter mass').

    My current routine:

    Day 1- Chest 1, Chest 2, Shoulder, Tricep, Abs.
    Day 2- Lat 1, Lat 2, Lower back , Trap , Abs.
    Day 3- Rest
    Day 4- Rest
    Day 5- Hamstring, Quad, Calf, Bicep, Abs.
    Day 6- Rest

    I throw in moderatly intense cardio (a 30 minute run at a pretty good
    pace) randomly 3 or 4 times a week. Every exercise is 3 sets of 8-10.


    Question:

    - It seems sometimes when doing Chest or Biceps for example, the wrong
    muscles get exhausted first. I.e. My triceps will kind of give way when
    I feel like I could've put up 3 or 4 more reps. Or my forearms won't
    let me work as intense on my Biceps as I'd like. If that is not
    normal, what can be done to prevent that?

    - Is the cardio too much? Sometimes, it is convenient to do it right
    after or before the weights, is it especially harmful or beneficial to
    do it on either?

    - Am I getting enough rest? If I add a chest and Lat exercises, or move
    up to 4 sets, how will it affect my gains?
     
    Tags:


  2. << Gains? Dont expect to make noticable gains and do "moderately
    intense
    cardio 2-4 times/week." >>

    So I should stop running?

    << If you really work your muscles, three days to a week is needed to
    recover, and working a different goup of muscles is not recovering. >>

    What kind of split do you do? The only way I can see to do that is to
    work one muscle part every 8-9 days, since you'll have to lift one day,
    rest three, lift one, rest three. UNLESS, on one lifting day, you lift
    the entire body really intensely. That's why I'm curious to see your
    split.

    Thanks for the advice.
     
  3. [email protected] wrote:
    > 5'10", 23 M, 190 (reasonably lean, but have gained some 'winter

    mass').
    >
    > My current routine:
    >
    > Day 1- Chest 1, Chest 2, Shoulder, Tricep, Abs.
    > Day 2- Lat 1, Lat 2, Lower back , Trap , Abs.
    > Day 3- Rest
    > Day 4- Rest
    > Day 5- Hamstring, Quad, Calf, Bicep, Abs.
    > Day 6- Rest
    >
    > I throw in moderatly intense cardio (a 30 minute run at a pretty good
    > pace) randomly 3 or 4 times a week. Every exercise is 3 sets of

    8-10.
    >
    >
    > Question:
    >
    > - It seems sometimes when doing Chest or Biceps for example, the

    wrong
    > muscles get exhausted first. I.e. My triceps will kind of give way

    when
    > I feel like I could've put up 3 or 4 more reps. Or my forearms won't
    > let me work as intense on my Biceps as I'd like. If that is not
    > normal, what can be done to prevent that?
    >
    > - Is the cardio too much? Sometimes, it is convenient to do it right
    > after or before the weights, is it especially harmful or beneficial

    to
    > do it on either?
    >
    > - Am I getting enough rest? If I add a chest and Lat exercises, or

    move
    > up to 4 sets, how will it affect my gains?


    Whatever specific advice you get in here, remember that what's optimal
    for you could vary from what's optimal for the average person or even
    for you for any given time period in your life, given, say, a better
    diet in the longer-term, less stress, better sleep, etc. The best way
    to figure out how you best achieve your goals is to experiment with
    your workout variables yourself, while keeping in mind what generally
    is considered to be overtraining/undertraining. That is, be
    intelligent with your experimentation -- don't think that you'd
    necessarily be able to do way more than the average person, e.g.,
    working out extremely hard every day or something crazy like that.
     
  4. If you could cut out the cardio that would be best to make gains. The
    thing is I dont practice what I preach. And because of that my gains
    are minimal. I just need the mental state high intensity anerobic
    exercise gives me.

    Split do I do? Well, thats the trick question, because I dont follow
    any routine. I work myself until Im overtrained then deal with low
    energy levels/sex drive/decreased mental alertness/apathy for 1-2weeks
    in recovery. Thats just how I do things. My gainsd are minimal because
    of this. I cant help it. I dont have the will power to not
    overtrain/avoid cardio workouts. The make up of my psychology is such
    that I am hyperactive and when Im not overtrained/passed out on the
    couch I am on my way to being. I have to constantly move because I am a
    physical person, like a high energy dog that will chew up everything in
    the house if not walked constantly.

    My suggestion is if you have will power then make use of it. If you
    have the attention span to go "today is a recovery day, Im going to sit
    and watch tv, surf the net, read a book, etc" then great. You will make
    gains. Its the rest that builds muscle, the exercise tears it down. If
    you get too much rest, your not going to lose muscle in any signifigant
    noticable amount. If you are not tearing the muscles down enough, you
    wont make noticable gains. SO overestimating your recoveries will be
    more productive than underestimating your recoveries and gaining a
    pound every three months like me.

    peace
     
  5. Larry Hodges

    Larry Hodges Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > If you could cut out the cardio that would be best to make gains. The
    > thing is I dont practice what I preach. And because of that my gains
    > are minimal. I just need the mental state high intensity anerobic
    > exercise gives me.
    >
    > Split do I do? Well, thats the trick question, because I dont follow
    > any routine. I work myself until Im overtrained then deal with low
    > energy levels/sex drive/decreased mental alertness/apathy for 1-2weeks
    > in recovery. Thats just how I do things. My gainsd are minimal because
    > of this. I cant help it. I dont have the will power to not
    > overtrain/avoid cardio workouts. The make up of my psychology is such
    > that I am hyperactive and when Im not overtrained/passed out on the
    > couch I am on my way to being. I have to constantly move because I am
    > a physical person, like a high energy dog that will chew up
    > everything in the house if not walked constantly.
    >
    > My suggestion is if you have will power then make use of it. If you
    > have the attention span to go "today is a recovery day, Im going to
    > sit and watch tv, surf the net, read a book, etc" then great. You
    > will make gains. Its the rest that builds muscle, the exercise tears
    > it down. If you get too much rest, your not going to lose muscle in
    > any signifigant noticable amount. If you are not tearing the muscles
    > down enough, you wont make noticable gains. SO overestimating your
    > recoveries will be more productive than underestimating your
    > recoveries and gaining a pound every three months like me.
    >
    > peace


    In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.
    --
    -Larry
     
  6. David

    David Guest

    "Larry Hodges" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > If you could cut out the cardio that would be best to make gains. The
    > > thing is I dont practice what I preach. And because of that my gains
    > > are minimal. I just need the mental state high intensity anerobic
    > > exercise gives me.
    > >
    > > Split do I do? Well, thats the trick question, because I dont follow
    > > any routine. I work myself until Im overtrained then deal with low
    > > energy levels/sex drive/decreased mental alertness/apathy for 1-2weeks
    > > in recovery. Thats just how I do things. My gainsd are minimal because
    > > of this. I cant help it. I dont have the will power to not
    > > overtrain/avoid cardio workouts. The make up of my psychology is such
    > > that I am hyperactive and when Im not overtrained/passed out on the
    > > couch I am on my way to being. I have to constantly move because I am
    > > a physical person, like a high energy dog that will chew up
    > > everything in the house if not walked constantly.
    > >
    > > My suggestion is if you have will power then make use of it. If you
    > > have the attention span to go "today is a recovery day, Im going to
    > > sit and watch tv, surf the net, read a book, etc" then great. You
    > > will make gains. Its the rest that builds muscle, the exercise tears
    > > it down. If you get too much rest, your not going to lose muscle in
    > > any signifigant noticable amount. If you are not tearing the muscles
    > > down enough, you wont make noticable gains. SO overestimating your
    > > recoveries will be more productive than underestimating your
    > > recoveries and gaining a pound every three months like me.
    > >
    > > peace

    >
    > In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.
    > --
    > -Larry
    >

    LOL!!
     
  7. Larry Hodges

    Larry Hodges Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > 5'10", 23 M, 190 (reasonably lean, but have gained some 'winter
    > mass').
    >
    > My current routine:
    >
    > Day 1- Chest 1, Chest 2, Shoulder, Tricep, Abs.
    > Day 2- Lat 1, Lat 2, Lower back , Trap , Abs.
    > Day 3- Rest
    > Day 4- Rest
    > Day 5- Hamstring, Quad, Calf, Bicep, Abs.
    > Day 6- Rest
    >
    > I throw in moderatly intense cardio (a 30 minute run at a pretty good
    > pace) randomly 3 or 4 times a week. Every exercise is 3 sets of 8-10.
    >
    >
    > Question:
    >
    > - It seems sometimes when doing Chest or Biceps for example, the wrong
    > muscles get exhausted first. I.e. My triceps will kind of give way
    > when I feel like I could've put up 3 or 4 more reps. Or my forearms
    > won't let me work as intense on my Biceps as I'd like. If that is not
    > normal, what can be done to prevent that?
    >
    > - Is the cardio too much? Sometimes, it is convenient to do it right
    > after or before the weights, is it especially harmful or beneficial to
    > do it on either?
    >
    > - Am I getting enough rest? If I add a chest and Lat exercises, or
    > move up to 4 sets, how will it affect my gains?


    First of all, completely dismiss everything universaltile has told you. If
    you did nothing else but that, you'd be ahead.

    I'm doing much the same split as you. Push, pull and legs. I also do
    cardio maybe 3 times per week after weights for 25 - 30 minutes. To address
    your cardio before/after question...after weights is ideal. If you do
    cardio first, you'll sap your body of strength for your weights. And since
    growth is what you're after, that's a bad thing.

    Cardio is good for you. And CV health is a different topic than
    hypertrophy. However, you can accomplish both if you pay attention to diet.
    IOW, cardio, from a weight control perspective, is simply a tool to burn
    calories. Let's say you burn 400 calories on the treadmill. Add in the
    10%-15% post workout calorie burn. So, you've burned 460. If you simply
    ate 460 less calories for that day, you've accomplished basically the same
    thing. So, about hypertrophy. You need to be consuming at or above your
    caloric requirements to build muscle mass. And of course, consume enough
    protein. If you're consuming under your required calories, you will lose
    weight...some of it fat and some of it LBM. To sum up, if you want to grow
    and do cardio, make sure you're eating enough to make up for the cardio.

    Regarding rest...

    I'm 48 and train six days per week. If you're new to lifting, that would be
    too much. How much rest is needed has been discussed here at length. The
    basic consensus is 1 - 2 days per muscle group with 5+ days being too much
    rest to make gains. There have even been some fairly new studies that
    purport that a 1 day rest is sufficient. Lyle posted a link to one some
    months back if memory serves. You might do a search in this NG and see what
    you find. Also, sleep is important. I need 8-9 hrs per night. 6-7 and I
    have to cut back on training.

    13 to 20 sets per workout is pretty typical for most guys, not counting
    warm-up sets. I typically do 3 - 4 work sets per exercise. Sometimes 2 if
    I'm in a hurry or a bit tired. I listen to my body, and if I'm tired, I
    allow myself light workouts. I may have an entire week where I feel tired.
    So...I just take it easy, lift light, drop my sets and basically maintain.
    Maybe adjust my nutrition, maybe not. Everybody goes through cycles. Just
    allow yourself slow times and it will still be fun. And...that's the key to
    staying with it.
    --
    -Larry
     
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