Firecrackers!

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Karen M., Jun 19, 2004.

  1. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:21:53 -0500, Kevan Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
    >If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
    >stop it. The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
    >directions.


    Any suggestions for training two dachshunds to stop barking? Maybe I
    can harness their barking instinct for some more useful purpose like
    power generation. I'll attach generators to their jaws...

    I wonder if I can get them to run on a treadmill, so they'll be too
    tired to bark.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     


  2. F1

    F1 Guest

    "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On 20 Jun 2004 12:11:54 GMT, [email protected] (GABIKE) from AOL
    > http://www.aol.com wrote:
    >
    > >>Cruelty to animals is against the law. If I ever see anyone spraying

    ammonia
    > >>on a dog, I will report you to the police and follow the case through

    the
    > >>courts to make sure you are punished. There is no need to spray ammonia

    on a
    > >>chasing dog. A surprise shot of plain water shocks the animal enough to

    make
    > >>it give up the chase. I have seen this work time after time.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>--
    > >>Kevan Smith
    > >>[email protected]
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >What about cruelty to humans? Get your head out of your rear end.

    >
    > A dog chasing someone is not cruelty. It is usually instinct or play.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Kevan Smith
    > [email protected]


    Kevan know, he talks to dogs all the time...
     
  3. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On 19 Jun 2004 17:11:17 -0700, [email protected] (John) wrote:
    >I've been thinking about picking up some of these to deal with dogs.
    >Of course trying to light an explosive while dealing with traffic and
    >dogs doesn't sound like too good of an idea, but I doubt it's much
    >harder than trying to aim a can of Halt at 20mph.


    How about those 'snappers', the little paper sacks filled with some
    sort of rock that goes "snap" and smokes a little when you throw it
    at the ground...might work, and much easier, just drop it; "SNAP!".
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  4. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:52:24 -0400, Curtis L. Russell
    <[email protected]> from The Maryland Russells wrote:

    >IMO a person that can take action against a chaser, should. This is a
    >dog, whether friendly or not, that can take out another cyclist if not
    >curbed. Its enough that the dog chases - if the cyclist ends up off
    >the road and injured from their reaction, it is irrelevant whether or
    >not the dog was friendly. (I had a Doberman owner with three
    >free-running Dobs tell me that his Dobs were 'friendly' and I was
    >overreacting to the 200 plus pounds of dog and teeth - he got to tell
    >the same story to the Maryland State trooper who seemed to have my
    >opinion of the mutts.Never saw those dogs outside again.)
    >
    >And I worked at a vet for three years and have owned a lot of dogs
    >myself. I know dogs better than most - I'm one of those people that
    >they call a dog person, where even unfriendly dogs come up to me
    >wagging their tails - but the only people worse than those that know
    >nothing about dogs are those that assume they can read every dog that
    >comes up the pike. I've had my share of stitches from dogs that both I
    >and the vets misread (actually both thumbs have scars up their side
    >from 30 plus years ago). And some large breeds are known for making no
    >overt sign until they strike.
    >
    >Don't assume the Akita is just chasing for fun. You'll have about two
    >seconds for your decision-making if you treat it as a chase (I think
    >that was my left thumb, to the bone).


    I'm one of those dog people, too. They seem to take a real liking to me,
    perhaps because they know I stick up for them.

    I agree that a person who can should take action in regard to a chasing dog. I
    don't think spraying ammonia is the thing to do. As a vet, I'm sure you are
    aware of how cruel and inhumane that action is.

    As cyclist, we have a long tradition of what to do about chasing dogs. The
    general consensus, based on countless cyclist years of experience, is that the
    best thing to do is either spray water at the dog or outrun it. It's right to
    look down on people who advocate spraying the dogs with maiming chemicals or
    shooting the dogs; those sorts of people are rightfully called mean and cruel.
    Animals may not have rights, but, as stewards, we have an obligation to treat
    animals humanely.

    You did the exact right thing regarding the Dobermans. I would suggest that if
    water spraying and outrunning doesn't work, that is the next step with any
    chasing dog -- notify the authorities. If the dog has an owner, then the cops
    can sure convince him or her to keep his fogs in. If the dog is a stray, then
    animal control can handle it.




    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email protected]
     
  5. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:24:57 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> from The
    Esoteric c0wz Society wrote:

    >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:21:53 -0500, Kevan Smith
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>A dog chasing you is instinct, The dog has very little choice in the matter.
    >>If the instinct is strong enough, no amount of your "correction" is going to
    >>stop it. The way we train dogs is to harness their instincts in more positive
    >>directions.

    >
    >Any suggestions for training two dachshunds to stop barking?


    Make their environment more peaceful.


    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email protected]
     
  6. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:56:45 -0800, "F1" <[email protected]> from wrote:

    >Kevan know, he talks to dogs all the time...


    Yep, and your momma says hi.

    /me rolls eyes



    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email protected]
     
  7. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Rick Onanian <[email protected]> writes:

    > How about those 'snappers', the little paper sacks filled with some
    > sort of rock that goes "snap" and smokes a little when you throw it
    > at the ground...might work, and much easier, just drop it; "SNAP!".


    It won't work.

    No more than firecrackers, spritzes, or any other gimmicks.
    A dog who is really intent on catching you simply won't be
    distracted. If the pooch really is more of a threat than
    a kick-off-able ankle-biter or a flappy, love-starved ol'
    puppy, it all boils down to fight or flight.

    Here's the standard, time-tested-&-true advice:
    Outrun them if you can. If you can't and the dog persists:
    stop, dismount, use your bike as a shield between you and
    the dog, and do what you must to defend yourself.

    But your hands are going to be too full of bike to be reaching
    for firecrackers + a lighter, or a can of Halt. You'd be using
    your feet a lot, as well as brandishing your bike while the dog
    is trying to circle around behind you. And you'd have to be
    very, very quick so the dog can't latch onto you. You won't
    have a chance to be reaching for anti-dog weaponry, so there's
    really no point in packing all that extra, useless stuff around.

    BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile, maybe just
    bury a rabbit carcass, and put them to work digging it up.
    OTOH, when they eventually do dig it up, they'd probably
    squabble over it anyway. Never mind. OTotherOH, maybe
    give them /each/ one to dig up. Nah -- then they'd just
    have two dead rabbits to squabble over. Never mind.
    I guess you're just stuck with vocal dachshunds.


    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- "I didn't punch no doggie."
    -- Billy Martin, in an old beer commercial
     
  8. Michael J. Klein <[email protected]> wrote:

    > http://www.lonelocust.com/travel/TaiwanSingapore/Taiwan3.htm
    > " First we caught the [Taipei Rapid Transit], then we took off on
    > foot. We were moving at a rapid clip, but then a pack of wild dogs set
    > upon us. We left Jeff for dead, fighting off the dogs." - written by
    > private Citizens in Taiwan.


    Hmm, the rest of that paragraph says:

    "David and I hurried... faster and faster we walked, finally arriving
    at 9:30... too late. Chu-Wan was already there... as was Jeff. He had
    taken a Taxi."

    I guess reports of poor Jeff's demise must have been greatly
    exaggerated.

    Not a fan of uncontrolled dogs,
    Ben
     
  9. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:54:43 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
    wrote:
    >BTW -- to get dachshunds to shuddup for awhile, maybe just
    >bury a rabbit carcass, and put them to work digging it up.


    I love it! Great idea. Won't work due to the well-manicured yard
    (and I'm not the owner of said yard), but maybe I can come up with
    something.

    >OTOH, when they eventually do dig it up, they'd probably
    >squabble over it anyway. Never mind. OTotherOH, maybe
    >give them /each/ one to dig up. Nah -- then they'd just
    >have two dead rabbits to squabble over. Never mind.


    Here's how sharing works for them:
    The female mini eats anything that's edible before the male
    standard-sized can get near it. The male takes anything that could
    be a toy, and makes a really convincing vicious growl if anybody
    goes near it or him.

    My girlfriend, who claims to love these dogs, insists on making him
    do that growl. That growl turns my stomach. I just can't believe
    that he's growling like that as part of a game; I believe he really
    is trying to protect his toy, and she's hurting his feelings.

    >I guess you're just stuck with vocal dachshunds.


    Yup, that's the conclusion I've come to. As a result, I've decided
    simply to complain on usenet every chance I get -- if they can be
    vocal, so can I! <G>

    Actually, I might be able to come up with something like your buried
    rabbit idea. It might actually distract them from food and barking.

    Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking them
    badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would eat a badger. Too
    bad, because I could actually enjoy these dogs that way, and (get
    ready for Kevan to really boil over) I'd love to go hunting and
    shoot something!

    Anybody want to get a shot-up badger in the mail?
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  10. The Real Bev

    The Real Bev Guest

    Kevan Smith wrote:
    >
    > The Real Bev <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Kevan Smith wrote:
    > >> "di" <[email protected]> from Cox Communications wrote:
    > >> >>Kevan wrote:
    > >> >> You're going from chasing to biting. If a dog is biting you, sure, defend
    > >> >> yourself. Spraying a chemical that could blind or poison on a dog that is
    > >> >> merely chasing is cruelty to animals. Most chasing dogs just do it for play,
    > >> >> not to commit harm. And, as I said, a simple spray of water stops them. I
    > >> >> have seen it work many times.
    > >> >
    > >> >Wait until he gets his teeth into your flesh to determine if it's merely a
    > >> >chase or bite?
    > >>
    > >> No, spray it with water to make it stop chasing. Learn to freakin' read.

    > >
    > >Somebody said he'd tried water, to no effect. What about mixing a
    > >LITTLE ammonia with the water? Or do you have a better suggestion?

    >
    > Ammonia eats away flesh. It's a caustic solution. That's why it blinds. Even a
    > little bit is harmful.


    What do you think is in Windex? Do you wear gloves when you clean your
    windows? Do you know anybody who does? I once (yeah, stupid, I know)
    sprayed myself in the eye with dryer fabric-softening spray. It took
    several days for the blur to disappear. Would Windex have been more
    damaging?

    > If you insist on a spray, jalapeno juice (not pickled) inflames nerve endings
    > to cause pain, but it is otherwise harmless. It's cheaper than pepper spray,
    > too.


    Interesting. So all you need are some jalapenos and a blender? And the
    skill to avoid dripping the stuff on yourself? I've dealt with
    jalapenos. You need gloves.

    > Do you have a size limit? I mean, if a Chihuahua were chasing you bent on
    > attack, would you spray it with ammonia as readily as you might a pit bull?


    No. As a matter of fact I WAS chased by a chihuahua. I had time to get
    off and do my bear imitation. Game little guy. I had to do it three
    times before he went back home. The German Shepard turned tail the
    first time, but my bicycle wasn't around.

    > Or
    > how about a friendliness limit -- say, a beautiful Golden Retriever, among the
    > gentlest of dogs, were chasing you and barking, would you spray it with a
    > caustic solution?


    You look at their faces. You look at their posture. You look at their
    tails. Some dogs are clearly playing, others want blood. With some you
    can't tell.

    In general, dogs are wonderful. In many cases they're much nicer than
    humans. I don't carry pepper spray or a squirt gun or ammonia and I'd
    have to get off my bike and open up my trunk bag to get my pump, which
    is too puny to be usefully threatening to anything past weaning age. I
    guess I could grab my water bottle and throw it at the dog, but that
    doesn't seem like it would be really effective. This whole discussion
    is theoretical.

    > If you are looking for a really humane solution to the dog chasing problem, I
    > can think of three really good ones: 1) outrace the dog,


    I can't outrace my 5'5" 250-lb beer-bellied medicare-age friend, why
    should I be able to outrace a dog of sufficient size to be at least
    potentially frightening? I've been riding for 10 years and am not
    likely to discover new depths of hitherto-unfound talent.

    > or 2) learn to make dog friends,


    Sometimes works. Dogs are generally very nice people unless they've
    been owned by shitheads who treat them badly.

    or 3) don't ride in that area.

    You mean "don't ride in any area that might contain a possibly-scary
    dog"? My husband, riding alone at night, was chased up a hill in the
    Cajon Pass area by a pack of feral dogs. He was just fast enough that he
    could keep ahead of them and eventually they got tired and turned
    around. He remembers wondering if they managed to catch him, could he
    kill one of them and would that perhaps distract the others while they
    ate their former pal?

    What SHOULD he have done?

    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ********************************************************************
    Organized people will never know the sheer joyous ecstasy of finding
    something that was believed to have been irretrievably lost.
    -- D. Stern
     
  11. The Real Bev

    The Real Bev Guest

    keydates wrote:
    >
    > I've heard that a little whack on the nose with a water bottle will do
    > the trick.


    I thought that was sharks, although I guess you wouldn't be likely to be
    carrying a water bottle during a shark attack. Never mind...

    >BTW, wasn't this supposed to be about firecrackers?


    You probably couldn't throw firecrackers at a shark either. What a
    silly idea.

    --
    Cheers,
    Bev
    ********************************************************************
    Organized people will never know the sheer joyous ecstasy of finding
    something that was believed to have been irretrievably lost.
    -- D. Stern
     
  12. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:12:41 -0700, <[email protected]>,
    The Real Bev <[email protected]> wrote, of ammonia:

    >What do you think is in Windex? Do you wear gloves when you clean your
    >windows?


    Did you ever spray that stuff on emerging carpenter ants?
    Kills 'em quicker than than Black Flag and much easier to clean up.
    --
    zk
     
  13. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:54:32 -0500, Kevan Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >As a vet, I'm sure you are
    >aware of how cruel and inhumane that action is.


    Worked for a vet. Held the dogs while in high school and my first year
    of college. I was the one who stayed in the room while everyone else
    cleared out. That's the main reason for the mottle effect on both
    thumbs and index fingers...

    German Shepherds BTW bite harder than damn near every thing else.
    Fortunately they don't grind their teeth when biting.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...
     
  14. Badger_South

    Badger_South Guest

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:12:41 -0700, The Real Bev <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >What SHOULD he have done?
    >
    >--
    >Cheers,
    >Bev


    Interesting post.

    IMO, doesn't matter how fast you are, how quick, or how picky your riding
    area, the dogs will eventually find you. You aren't going to be quick
    enough to get out your anti-dog measures, be accurate enough to hit them or
    make a difference, or always be in the right gear to out-run/ride 'em. In
    my case b/c of the injured hip, I can't get off the bike fast enough to put
    it between them and me. This adds up, unfortunately to some frustration.

    I am going to start carrying some anti-dog measures, in fact three of 'em.
    I have no intention of using them, but in at least one case it could have
    been very bad - the owner actually sicced his dog on me b/c I dared to say
    'hey, your dog's outta control, if I hit him it's not my fault'. This
    caused an expletive deleted and a dog attack. Fortunately he called off his
    very large rottweiler. If I had the spray, I might have sprayed both him
    and the dog and then got his ID and called the cops; but as it was I was
    able to make friends with him by apologizing for my comments. Still, inside
    I wanted to kick his ass and easily could have were I not worried about the
    dog joining in.

    In the final analysis, it's better to be silent, swift and fly quietly
    below the radar. (But in the case of riding where there might be feral
    dogs, I'd be CCW-ing. Even this could be bad, b/c if you stop to draw a
    bead, you would get mobbed)

    -Badger
     
  15. Badger_South

    Badger_South Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:58:40 -0400, Curtis L. Russell
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:54:32 -0500, Kevan Smith
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>As a vet, I'm sure you are
    >>aware of how cruel and inhumane that action is.

    >
    >Worked for a vet. Held the dogs while in high school and my first year
    >of college. I was the one who stayed in the room while everyone else
    >cleared out. That's the main reason for the mottle effect on both
    >thumbs and index fingers...
    >
    >German Shepherds BTW bite harder than damn near every thing else.
    >Fortunately they don't grind their teeth when biting.
    >
    >Curtis L. Russell
    >Odenton, MD (USA)
    >Just someone on two wheels...


    Dude, you're 'Net Resource in and of yourself. You oughtta do a website -
    "things I learned about dogs, and still have all my fingers - mostly".

    I kid, but it's true - thanks for the interesting posts on the 'vet days'.

    -Badger
     
  16. Badger_South

    Badger_South Guest

    On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:12:29 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking them
    >badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would eat a badger. Too
    >bad, because I could actually enjoy these dogs that way, and (get
    >ready for Kevan to really boil over) I'd love to go hunting and
    >shoot something!
    >
    >Anybody want to get a shot-up badger in the mail?
    >--
    >Rick Onanian


    HEY!

    -Badger
     
  17. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:39:33 -0400, Badger_South <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:12:29 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Somebody (I think on another newsfroup) suggested taking them
    >>badger-hunting; but I don't know anybody who would eat a badger. Too

    ....
    >>Anybody want to get a shot-up badger in the mail?

    >
    >HEY!
    >-Badger


    Sorry, I was just talking about badgers north... ;)
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
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    On 2004-06-21, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:16:17 GMT, Mark Mitchell
    ><[email protected]> from BellSouth Internet Group wrote:
    >
    >>I'm sorry, but you've just lost me here.
    >>
    >>A dog chasing is instinct, I agree. I disagree that negative reinforcement
    >>(correction) is inappropriate. Meditate on the primary defence of skunks
    >>and porcupines and then tell me that no amount of correction is going to
    >>stop an instinctive behavior.

    >
    > instinct remains. In terms of the chasing instinct, your one spray with the
    > ammonia bottle would be enough to blind and maim the dog, but it's not nearly
    > enough training time to change the instinctual behavior.


    Kevan, please keep track of who you're talking to. I defy you to find any
    post of mine in the last several days where I even implied that I approve
    of spraying any living creature with ammonia.

    Mark

    - --
    Remove both wrongs to make the email address right.

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  19. On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:39:33 -0400, Badger_South <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    >Dude, you're 'Net Resource in and of yourself. You oughtta do a website -
    >"things I learned about dogs, and still have all my fingers - mostly".
    >
    >I kid, but it's true - thanks for the interesting posts on the 'vet days'.
    >
    >-Badger


    Do you remember the comment in "The Magnificent Seven" about not
    hiring the guy with scars? We're the ones who didn't know quite enough
    or weren't quite fast enough...

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...
     
  20. Badger_South

    Badger_South Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:18:43 -0400, Curtis L. Russell
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:39:33 -0400, Badger_South <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>Dude, you're 'Net Resource in and of yourself. You oughtta do a website -
    >>"things I learned about dogs, and still have all my fingers - mostly".
    >>
    >>I kid, but it's true - thanks for the interesting posts on the 'vet days'.
    >>
    >>-Badger

    >
    >Do you remember the comment in "The Magnificent Seven" about not
    >hiring the guy with scars? We're the ones who didn't know quite enough
    >or weren't quite fast enough...
    >
    >Curtis L. Russell
    >Odenton, MD (USA)
    >Just someone on two wheels...


    I'da hired him as a consultant, though. ;-)

    -B
     
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