once the climb is over i still think that, say there are 10 guys with 325watts, in an organised chase situation they can easily take turns drilling the front at 400 watts or over, hence the need to have that or more just to stay away on a solo basis.
Yep, if that's the case, then you're right. The whole plan hinges on the RDO's belief that he will be one of the strongest, if not the strongest, riders in the field. This strategy doesn't play at all for a rider who's closer to the pack average. If RDO gets to the top and there are still 10 guys on his wheel then he'll have to go to plan B.
Yep, if that's the case, then you're right. The whole plan hinges on the RDO's belief that he will be one of the strongest, if not the strongest, riders in the field. This strategy doesn't play at all for a rider who's closer to the pack average. If RDO gets to the top and there are still 10 guys on his wheel then he'll have to go to plan B.
Right. But, as you pointed out in the "matches" thread, if one is not one of the stronger riders, he doesn't need a strategy because all he can do is react to the others' strategies. The stronger riders dictate the race and I'm intrigued with figuring out how to best use one's strength to manage other riders' IFs. I'm thinking 120%FT is not enough on the flat, but maybe 100%FT is enough on a climb.
Yep, if that's the case, then you're right. The whole plan hinges on the RDO's belief that he will be one of the strongest, if not the strongest, riders in the field. This strategy doesn't play at all for a rider who's closer to the pack average. If RDO gets to the top and there are still 10 guys on his wheel then he'll have to go to plan B.
Right. But, as you pointed out in the "matches" thread, if one is not one of the stronger riders, he doesn't need a strategy because all he can do is react to the others' strategies. The stronger riders dictate the race and I'm intrigued with figuring out how to best use one's strength to manage other riders' IFs. I'm thinking 120%FT is not enough on the flat, but maybe 100%FT is enough on a climb.
Right. But, as you pointed out in the "matches" thread, if one is not one of the stronger riders, he doesn't need a strategy because all he can do is react to the others' strategies. The stronger riders dictate the race and I'm intrigued with figuring out how to best use one's strength to manage other riders' IFs. I'm thinking 120%FT is not enough on the flat, but maybe 100%FT is enough on a climb.
One more aspect; wether you accelerate the pack slowly, you might end up with a rider or two or a small group on your wheel which could increase the odds of the breakaway... but then you should decide your strategy on the group, work or draft...
Right. But, as you pointed out in the "matches" thread, if one is not one of the stronger riders, he doesn't need a strategy because all he can do is react to the others' strategies. The stronger riders dictate the race and I'm intrigued with figuring out how to best use one's strength to manage other riders' IFs. I'm thinking 120%FT is not enough on the flat, but maybe 100%FT is enough on a climb.
One more aspect; wether you accelerate the pack slowly, you might end up with a rider or two or a small group on your wheel which could increase the odds of the breakaway... but then you should decide your strategy on the group, work or draft...
Right. But, as you pointed out in the "matches" thread, if one is not one of the stronger riders, he doesn't need a strategy because all he can do is react to the others' strategies.
Sure, I wasn't changing my position, just reminding Robkit that the discussion is based on the belief that you'll be one of the strongest guys. The goal (in this case) isn't figuring out how to beat 10 other guys who are equally strong, but rather to figure out how to keep 10 weaker guys from teaming up to beat you.
Right. But, as you pointed out in the "matches" thread, if one is not one of the stronger riders, he doesn't need a strategy because all he can do is react to the others' strategies.
Sure, I wasn't changing my position, just reminding Robkit that the discussion is based on the belief that you'll be one of the strongest guys. The goal (in this case) isn't figuring out how to beat 10 other guys who are equally strong, but rather to figure out how to keep 10 weaker guys from teaming up to beat you.
One more aspect; wether you accelerate the pack slowly, you might end up with a rider or two or a small group on your wheel which could increase the odds of the breakaway... but then you should decide your strategy on the group, work or draft...
I agree. The good news is that the climb tops out with a 1.5 mile straight segment (minimum 6-8 mins to climb), so I'll be able to look back and have a clear view of the field for a 6-8 min window. Then I can make a decision about my strategy for the descent to the finish. At least I'll have good data.
One more aspect; wether you accelerate the pack slowly, you might end up with a rider or two or a small group on your wheel which could increase the odds of the breakaway... but then you should decide your strategy on the group, work or draft...
I agree. The good news is that the climb tops out with a 1.5 mile straight segment (minimum 6-8 mins to climb), so I'll be able to look back and have a clear view of the field for a 6-8 min window. Then I can make a decision about my strategy for the descent to the finish. At least I'll have good data.
The good news is that the climb tops out with a 1.5 mile straight segment (minimum 6-8 mins to climb), so I'll be able to look back and have a clear view of the field for a 6-8 min window. Then I can make a decision about my strategy for the descent to the finish.
If you're away from the pack near the top of the climb, go hard over the top of the climb. By quickly accelerating over the top and getting up to speed on the other side, you will be able to open a much larger distance gap while the group still plods slowly along for a couple more minutes on their climb. This won't gain you any time, of course, since they'll accelerate at the top as well, but they'll get the psychological shock of having seen you fairly close at the top of the hill, and then suddenly very far away on the other side of the peak. Maybe that will shake their resolve to try to chase.
The good news is that the climb tops out with a 1.5 mile straight segment (minimum 6-8 mins to climb), so I'll be able to look back and have a clear view of the field for a 6-8 min window. Then I can make a decision about my strategy for the descent to the finish.
If you're away from the pack near the top of the climb, go hard over the top of the climb. By quickly accelerating over the top and getting up to speed on the other side, you will be able to open a much larger distance gap while the group still plods slowly along for a couple more minutes on their climb. This won't gain you any time, of course, since they'll accelerate at the top as well, but they'll get the psychological shock of having seen you fairly close at the top of the hill, and then suddenly very far away on the other side of the peak. Maybe that will shake their resolve to try to chase.
If you're away from the pack near the top of the climb, go hard over the top of the climb. By quickly accelerating over the top and getting up to speed on the other side, you will be able to open a much larger distance gap while the group still plods slowly along for a couple more minutes on their climb. This won't gain you any time, of course, since they'll accelerate at the top as well, but they'll get the psychological shock of having seen you fairly close at the top of the hill, and then suddenly very far away on the other side of the peak. Maybe that will shake their resolve to try to chase.
No doubt about it -- the top of the climb will be the seminal moment in the race.
If you're away from the pack near the top of the climb, go hard over the top of the climb. By quickly accelerating over the top and getting up to speed on the other side, you will be able to open a much larger distance gap while the group still plods slowly along for a couple more minutes on their climb. This won't gain you any time, of course, since they'll accelerate at the top as well, but they'll get the psychological shock of having seen you fairly close at the top of the hill, and then suddenly very far away on the other side of the peak. Maybe that will shake their resolve to try to chase.
No doubt about it -- the top of the climb will be the seminal moment in the race.
One more observation for those of you who are aware of my obsession with variable power (VP) pacing. This course and particularly the last climb are absolutely perfect for deploying a VP pacing strategy. The grade changes are numerous and due to the frequent switchbacks the wind changes will also be frequent. The moment one gets clear he would want to go to a VP pacing strategy at a pre-set NP, to maximize speed as a function of NP. What a great place to test the usefulness of such data. Hmmm...😄
One more observation for those of you who are aware of my obsession with variable power (VP) pacing. This course and particularly the last climb are absolutely perfect for deploying a VP pacing strategy. The grade changes are numerous and due to the frequent switchbacks the wind changes will also be frequent. The moment one gets clear he would want to go to a VP pacing strategy at a pre-set NP, to maximize speed as a function of NP. What a great place to test the usefulness of such data. Hmmm...😄
obviously a solo break is just a time trial, all pacing rules apply, which is why i like to ride the odd TT on my road bike. all the better if i pass someone with all the aero gear, love the look on their faces...
did you see the tour de nez coverage on www.cycling.tv - stage 2 - scott moninger riding around off the front, uncatchable by a hard working chase group, until he lapped the field. now that's what i call steady state power!
obviously a solo break is just a time trial, all pacing rules apply, which is why i like to ride the odd TT on my road bike. all the better if i pass someone with all the aero gear, love the look on their faces...
did you see the tour de nez coverage on www.cycling.tv - stage 2 - scott moninger riding around off the front, uncatchable by a hard working chase group, until he lapped the field. now that's what i call steady state power!
The rational mind will only take you so far, Rap Daddyo...at some point you have to go on your instinct, intuition, feel (call it what you will).
There's also an element of spontaneity in road racing that your rather slavish adherence to data doesn't admit. Not that I don't admire your technical aptitude -- I really do -- I just feel it has its limits.
The rational mind will only take you so far, Rap Daddyo...at some point you have to go on your instinct, intuition, feel (call it what you will).
There's also an element of spontaneity in road racing that your rather slavish adherence to data doesn't admit. Not that I don't admire your technical aptitude -- I really do -- I just feel it has its limits.
The rational mind will only take you so far, Rap Daddyo...at some point you have to go on your instinct, intuition, feel (call it what you will).
Does that mean one doesn't go into a race with a plan?
Catabolic_Jones said:
There's also an element of spontaneity in road racing that your rather slavish adherence to data doesn't admit. Not that I don't admire your technical aptitude -- I really do -- I just feel it has its limits.
Everything has its limits, even riding by "feel." I don't think one approach works for everybody. I have my approach and you have yours. But, because yours isn't mine doesn't mean yours is wrong.
My purpose in this thread was to get comments on what I think will be the seminal moment in this race. This is not an important race to me, I haven't trained specifically for it, I haven't spent much time on my bike in the last month and I'm riding my training wheels and tires. This is just an exercise in trying to anticipate the flow of the race and develop a plan for the final climb in the event that I am able to influence the race pace.
