First Marathon

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Brendon, Dec 21, 2003.

  1. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Hi all,

    Newbie here to this newsgroup. Is there a FAQ I should read first?

    I have made the decision to run my 1st full marathon, and am after a little advice. I have the 18
    week schedule from Hal Higdons site, and it ties in with when the marathon is, being the 1st May
    2004, so I will start on New Years day.

    Is there more I need to know, or will his site cover pretty much the basics?

    Kind regards, Brendon in NZ

    ps. the run is the 40th Anniversary of the Fletcher Marathon in New Zealand. NZ's biggest marathon.
    http://www.rotoruamarathon.co.nz/
     
    Tags:


  2. Anthony

    Anthony Guest

    Brendon wrote:

    > Hi all,
    >
    > Newbie here to this newsgroup. Is there a FAQ I should read first?

    Ozzie Gontang maintains the FAQ. It is in 8 parts - search the newsgroup or try via Google. Lots of
    good info.

    > I have made the decision to run my 1st full marathon, and am after a little advice. I have the 18
    > week schedule from Hal Higdons site, and it ties in with when the marathon is, being the 1st May
    > 2004, so I will start on New Years day.

    Hal Higdon has good programs. We could help you more if you give some more background. How long have
    you been running? Past races? PR's? Current mileage.

    > Is there more I need to know, or will his site cover pretty much the basics?

    He'll cover a lot. But if you're running a marathon there's a lot of info on other sites. Try
    www.runnersworld.com and www.runningtimes.com for starters.

    > Kind regards, Brendon in NZ
    >
    > ps. the run is the 40th Anniversary of the Fletcher Marathon in New Zealand. NZ's biggest
    > marathon. http://www.rotoruamarathon.co.nz/

    Looks like a nice race.

    Good luck,

    Anthony.
     
  3. Ed Prochak

    Ed Prochak Guest

    "Brendon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > Newbie here to this newsgroup. Is there a FAQ I should read first?

    (An intelligent lad, a wonderful lad!) Yes, check out this link http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-
    faq/

    >
    > I have made the decision to run my 1st full marathon, and am after a little advice. I have the 18
    > week schedule from Hal Higdons site, and it ties in with when the marathon is, being the 1st May
    > 2004, so I will start on New Years day.

    Well, without knowing anything about your current running fitness or running history, the only
    advice possible at this point is: plan only on finishing the distance. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT SPEED.

    >
    > Is there more I need to know, or will his site cover pretty much the basics?

    Since we don't know what you don't know, we cannot say whether you need to know more. (That was a
    convoluted way of asking you to share a little more about yourself.)

    I haven't checked Higdon's site. I followed Galloway's method when I did my marathon. perhaps others
    will chime in on the relative merits and demerits of various plans.
    >
    > Kind regards, Brendon in NZ
    >
    > ps. the run is the 40th Anniversary of the Fletcher Marathon in New Zealand. NZ's biggest
    > marathon. http://www.rotoruamarathon.co.nz/

    BTW, Welcome to rec.running!

    Ed
     
  4. Swstudio

    Swstudio Guest

    "Brendon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Newbie here to this newsgroup. Is there a FAQ I should read first?
    >
    > I have made the decision to run my 1st full marathon, and am after a
    little
    > advice. I have the 18 week schedule from Hal Higdons site, and it ties in with when the marathon
    > is, being the 1st May 2004, so I will start on New Years day.
    >
    > Is there more I need to know, or will his site cover pretty much the
    basics?

    Greetings, and there's more WE need to know in order to give you that advice.... mainly, are you a
    new runner or have you been at it for a while?

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org
     
  5. > > Kind regards, Brendon in NZ
    > >
    > > ps. the run is the 40th Anniversary of the Fletcher Marathon in New Zealand. NZ's biggest
    > > marathon. http://www.rotoruamarathon.co.nz/

    Brendon,

    This time of the year about 15 or more years ago we hosted the running club from Hamilton who were
    visiting and had come to run a marathon here.

    Had a wonderful time with them. They enjoyed their stay and took back a load of gifts from
    Toys R Us.

    Good luck on your training,

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
     
  6. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Righto crew,
    The common theme here is that you need to know more about me, so here
    goes... (oh, just quickly, it's very nice to post to a newsgroup and not get
    flamed..)
    I am 30 in September 2004, needless why I wish to run my 1st marathon before
    this day. (a goal of mine).
    I have played semi professional rugby union for the last 5 years, so have a
    good standard of fitness I guess. I could run a 3km (standard rugby test)
    about 2 years ago in 11.20s.
    I did a half marathon 2 years ago with no training, runs whatso ever in 1hr
    45m.
    At the moment, I am running 35-45min 3x week up the local hill (Mount
    Maunganui).
    I am 6'3", 98kg if this means anything, other than the fact I'd like to keep
    the weight on, so realise that eating for me is going to be very important
    with the miles starting to pile on soon.
    Anything else? Let me know if I've missed anything. :)

    Regards, Brendon in NZ.
    ps. I only live an hour away from Hamilton, my advantage is I live at the beach! A quick shot of
    where I live, with the hill I run up and around.
    3.9km around it, and vertically approx 300m above sealevel.
    http://www.kiwitourism.com/mountmaunganui/photos/mountbeach.JPG
     
  7. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration system
    such as a CamelBak? Thanks again. Brendon in NZ

    "Brendon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Righto crew, The common theme here is that you need to know more about me, so here goes... (oh,
    > just quickly, it's very nice to post to a newsgroup and not
    get
    > flamed..) I am 30 in September 2004, needless why I wish to run my 1st marathon
    before
    > this day. (a goal of mine). I have played semi professional rugby union for the last 5
    > years, so have
    a
    > good standard of fitness I guess. I could run a 3km (standard rugby test) about 2 years ago in
    > 11.20s. I did a half marathon 2 years ago with no training, runs whatso ever in
    1hr
    > 45m. At the moment, I am running 35-45min 3x week up the local hill (Mount Maunganui). I am 6'3",
    > 98kg if this means anything, other than the fact I'd like to
    keep
    > the weight on, so realise that eating for me is going to be very important with the miles starting
    > to pile on soon. Anything else? Let me know if I've missed anything. :)
    >
    > Regards, Brendon in NZ.
    > ps. I only live an hour away from Hamilton, my advantage is I live at the beach! A quick shot of
    > where I live, with the hill I run up and around.
    > 3.9km around it, and vertically approx 300m above sealevel.
    > http://www.kiwitourism.com/mountmaunganui/photos/mountbeach.JPG
     
  8. Joe Positive

    Joe Positive Guest

  9. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Brendon wrote:
    > Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration
    > system such as a CamelBak? Thanks again. Brendon in NZ

    If your marathon is well-supported and (1) has fluids and food at sufficiently frequent intervals,
    (2) you've practiced with those fluids/foods and know they work for you, and (3) you don't mind
    consuming such as those intervals of aid stations, then there may not be a need for a camelbak (cb).

    If any of the above assumptions are false, then I would suggest carrying something - either water
    bottle(s) to get between aid stations (if those fluids suit you) or a cb to carry your preferred
    fluid, food, and perhaps other gear. Unless the race allows somebody to provide support along the
    way and you can find somebody to do that. Whatever you do, practice that way. Never do anything new
    on race day.

    Most of my races have minimal to no aid, so I use a cb for anything over 45 min race (sometimes need
    to hike back to car so effective time might be 2 hr). I also prefer consistent intake every 15-20
    min rather than every, say, 5 miles or wherever aid stations might be. This is the way I train, so
    it's easier for me not having to worry about what the brand / flavor of the race will be and
    training on that nor logistics of hooking up with a crew. *For me*, it's easier to use a cb. I
    prefer the ease (and larger fluid flow) of a cb rather than dinking around with hand-held water
    bottles or extracting them from a waist carrier. Others dislike carrying anything. It's something
    you can play around with in training.

    But it looks like your race should have aid stations, although I didn't see that level of detail on
    the web page (but may have overlooked it). If you depend on them, be sure to know what they are
    providing - including the flavors - and practice with them. Find out during training if they work or
    don't. If they are more than an hour apart (maybe even
    1/2 hour), I would carry at least a bottle with sports drink.

    Enjoy! Looks like a nice race.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  10. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Thanks Karen, it only takes about 15 minutes to run up, then down and around for a full lap, I can
    do this in about 35mins I think. I plan on being able to do this about 3 times by the time I am fit
    and ready for my marathon. Fingers crossed.

    Have a good xmas everyone. Brendon in NZ

    "joe positive" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:51:17 +1300, "Brendon"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >A quick shot of where I live, with the hill I run up and around.
    >3.9km around it, and vertically approx 300m above sealevel.
    > http://www.kiwitourism.com/mountmaunganui/photos/mountbeach.JPG

    That's a hill? That's a mountain. If you train on that, good for you!

    Karen
     
  11. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Dot, Thanks, that was very informative! I think I will get one now, and start using it during
    training, as there just seems too many if's and but's concerning flavours and how often they are in
    the run. This is a concern for 'me' because I do have a rather sensitive stomach, and get
    indegestion easily. For 15 years I have had to eat the same food on game day before a rugby game
    (80mins) so as to not throw up, cramp, or both. Fun huh? I am very aware of the need for regular
    intake of food/water during long distant events. At the pinacle of my rugby career, we would be
    weighed before during and after a game, calculating how much fluid we had taken in vs output, and
    there were some very interesting statistics which makes you appreciate the need for fluids!

    Anyway, thanks for your insight. Much appreciated. Brendon

    "Dot" <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    news.ops.worldnet.att.net... Brendon wrote:
    > Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration
    > system such as a CamelBak? Thanks again. Brendon in NZ

    If your marathon is well-supported and (1) has fluids and food at sufficiently frequent intervals,
    (2) you've practiced with those fluids/foods and know they work for you, and (3) you don't mind
    consuming such as those intervals of aid stations, then there may not be a need for a camelbak (cb).

    If any of the above assumptions are false, then I would suggest carrying something - either water
    bottle(s) to get between aid stations (if those fluids suit you) or a cb to carry your preferred
    fluid, food, and perhaps other gear. Unless the race allows somebody to provide support along the
    way and you can find somebody to do that. Whatever you do, practice that way. Never do anything new
    on race day.

    Most of my races have minimal to no aid, so I use a cb for anything over 45 min race (sometimes need
    to hike back to car so effective time might be 2 hr). I also prefer consistent intake every 15-20
    min rather than every, say, 5 miles or wherever aid stations might be. This is the way I train, so
    it's easier for me not having to worry about what the brand / flavor of the race will be and
    training on that nor logistics of hooking up with a crew. *For me*, it's easier to use a cb. I
    prefer the ease (and larger fluid flow) of a cb rather than dinking around with hand-held water
    bottles or extracting them from a waist carrier. Others dislike carrying anything. It's something
    you can play around with in training.

    But it looks like your race should have aid stations, although I didn't see that level of detail on
    the web page (but may have overlooked it). If you depend on them, be sure to know what they are
    providing - including the flavors - and practice with them. Find out during training if they work or
    don't. If they are more than an hour apart (maybe even
    1/2 hour), I would carry at least a bottle with sports drink.

    Enjoy! Looks like a nice race.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people"
    -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  12. >Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration
    >system such as a CamelBak?

    I haven't used one so I can't speak from experience. I can tell you what I do. As Dot points out,
    you may not need to carry anything with you in the race, depending on how much support they have,
    but you'll need it in training.

    I've found that simply carrying a 28-ounce bottle (squeeze-type) full of water meets my needs on
    most runs; on longer runs I may have to plan to run past a shop or public water fountain for a
    refill. Holding the bottle in my hand is no problem, got used to it quickly. You can get a hand
    strap in some sports stores to make it easier to carry.

    As for food/energy sources, I have the best luck with gel packets; I take half a packet every 3
    miles plus about 6 ounces water on my longer runs (16-plus miles). I also take a bit of water in
    between of course. I've read that one can absorb about 28 ounces of water per hour, so I try not to
    take in more than that.

    I don't know whether I'd find a Camelbak or a "fuel belt" useful or distracting, e.g. from bouncing
    or chafing as I run. I may try one sometime, but for now I'm saving my money. The bottle works fine.

    Good luck!

    --
    Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

    If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill
     
  13. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Brendon wrote:

    > Dot, Thanks, that was very informative! I think I will get one now, and start using it during
    > training, as there just seems too many if's and but's concerning flavours and how often they are
    > in the run. This is a concern for 'me' because I do have a rather sensitive stomach, and get
    > indegestion easily. For 15 years I have had to eat the same food on game day before a rugby game
    > (80mins) so as to not throw up, cramp, or both. Fun huh?

    From your rugby experience, it sounds like you have a really good handle on the food and fluid
    situation in terms of knowing what works for you and how much fluid is needed. That can be a really
    big issue for a lot of people to figure out. Yea, I can relate to barf factor, although I haven't
    done it recently ;)

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  14. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    Brian Baresch wrote:

    >>Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration
    >>system such as a CamelBak?
    >
    >
    > I haven't used one so I can't speak from experience. I can tell you what I do. As Dot points out,
    > you may not need to carry anything with you in the race, depending on how much support they have,
    > but you'll need it in training.

    >
    > I've found that simply carrying a 28-ounce bottle (squeeze-type) full of water meets my needs on
    > most runs; on longer runs I may have to plan to run past a shop or public water fountain for a
    > refill. Holding the bottle in my hand is no problem, got used to it quickly. You can get a hand
    > strap in some sports stores to make it easier to carry.

    >
    > As for food/energy sources, I have the best luck with gel packets; I take half a packet every 3
    > miles plus about 6 ounces water on my longer runs (16-plus miles). I also take a bit of water in
    > between of course. I've read that one can absorb about 28 ounces of water per hour, so I try not
    > to take in more than that.

    The best guide is to practice your hydration technique during your long runs. This includes
    content(gel, sport drink) and frequency. If you don't like gels for what ever reason and plan to
    drink from the aid stains, try to find out ahead of time what they plan to serve down to flavor. You
    might like Gatorade yet dislike boysenberry grape.

    Whether you drink from a bottle(carry or wear), camel hump, or stop or stop at Price Chopper food
    store, do it as you would on race day.

    > I don't know whether I'd find a Camelbak or a "fuel belt" useful or distracting, e.g. from
    > bouncing or chafing as I run. I may try one sometime, but for now I'm saving my money. The bottle
    > works fine.

    FWIW, I run, and for a few hours at a time with a water bottle belt but bike with a camel back,
    neither chaff. The secret of a bottle carrier is a wide belt. For long runs I'd stay away from the
    Fuelbelt for two reasons, tiny bottles which will piss off aid station folks if you ask then to
    refill and the belt is too narrow thus tend to bounce albeit less since the bottles are
    distributed. Note the general shape on http://ultimatedirection.com/search_run.html which is just
    one of many brands.

    Unlike Brian I don't like to carry a jug in my hands. When puttering along on trails I tend to
    rubber neck and known to trip a lot. I prefer both my hands available to break my fall.

    --
    Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email protected]
     
  15. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Thanks Brian, I will take the amounts you suggest into account when I start 'full on' training next
    week. Kind regards for the festive season. Brendon in NZ

    "Brian Baresch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration
    > >system such as a CamelBak?
    >
    > I haven't used one so I can't speak from experience. I can tell you what I do. As Dot points out,
    > you may not need to carry anything with you in the race, depending on how much support they have,
    > but you'll need it in training.
    >
    > I've found that simply carrying a 28-ounce bottle (squeeze-type) full of water meets my needs on
    > most runs; on longer runs I may have to plan to run past a shop or public water fountain for a
    > refill. Holding the bottle in my hand is no problem, got used to it quickly. You can get a hand
    > strap in some sports stores to make it easier to carry.
    >
    > As for food/energy sources, I have the best luck with gel packets; I take half a packet every 3
    > miles plus about 6 ounces water on my longer runs (16-plus miles). I also take a bit of water in
    > between of course. I've read that one can absorb about 28 ounces of water per hour, so I try not
    > to take in more than that.
    >
    > I don't know whether I'd find a Camelbak or a "fuel belt" useful or distracting, e.g. from
    > bouncing or chafing as I run. I may try one sometime, but for now I'm saving my money. The bottle
    > works fine.
    >
    > Good luck!
    >
    > --
    > Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading
    >
    > If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill
     
  16. >Unlike Brian I don't like to carry a jug in my hands. When puttering along on trails I tend to
    >rubber neck and known to trip a lot. I prefer both my hands available to break my fall.

    Yeah, if I were off-road I'd probably feel the same; the wildest I get hereabouts is running in the
    grass next to the concrete path, or on the golf course. Maybe next year ...

    --
    Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

    If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill
     
  17. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Cheers Doug, I see your point... :)

    Regards, Brendon in NZ

    "Doug Freese" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Brian Baresch wrote:
    >
    > >>Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts
    on
    > >>getting a hydration system such as a CamelBak?
    > >
    > >
    > > I haven't used one so I can't speak from experience. I can tell you what I do. As Dot points
    > > out, you may not need to carry anything with you in the race, depending on how much support they
    > > have, but you'll need it in training.
    >
    > >
    > > I've found that simply carrying a 28-ounce bottle (squeeze-type) full of water meets my needs on
    > > most runs; on longer runs I may have to plan to run past a shop or public water fountain for a
    > > refill. Holding the bottle in my hand is no problem, got used to it quickly. You can get a hand
    > > strap in some sports stores to make it easier to carry.
    >
    > >
    > > As for food/energy sources, I have the best luck with gel packets; I take half a packet every 3
    > > miles plus about 6 ounces water on my longer runs (16-plus miles). I also take a bit of water in
    > > between of course. I've read that one can absorb about 28 ounces of water per hour, so I try not
    > > to take in more than that.
    >
    > The best guide is to practice your hydration technique during your long runs. This includes
    > content(gel, sport drink) and frequency. If you don't like gels for what ever reason and plan to
    > drink from the aid stains, try to find out ahead of time what they plan to serve down to flavor.
    > You might like Gatorade yet dislike boysenberry grape.
    >
    > Whether you drink from a bottle(carry or wear), camel hump, or stop or stop at Price Chopper food
    > store, do it as you would on race day.
    >
    >
    > > I don't know whether I'd find a Camelbak or a "fuel belt" useful or distracting, e.g. from
    > > bouncing or chafing as I run. I may try one sometime, but for now I'm saving my money. The
    > > bottle works fine.
    >
    > FWIW, I run, and for a few hours at a time with a water bottle belt but bike with a camel back,
    > neither chaff. The secret of a bottle carrier is a wide belt. For long runs I'd stay away from the
    > Fuelbelt for two reasons, tiny bottles which will piss off aid station folks if you ask then to
    > refill and the belt is too narrow thus tend to bounce albeit less since the bottles are
    > distributed. Note the general shape on http://ultimatedirection.com/search_run.html which is just
    > one of many brands.
    >
    > Unlike Brian I don't like to carry a jug in my hands. When puttering along on trails I tend to
    > rubber neck and known to trip a lot. I prefer both my hands available to break my fall.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email protected]
     
  18. Anthony

    Anthony Guest

    Brendon wrote:

    > Also, didn't want to start a new thread, but what are peoples thoughts on getting a hydration
    > system such as a CamelBak? Thanks again. Brendon in NZ

    Brendon - hydration is important. I prefer running without attachments, and always manage to find
    water at the stadium, in parks etc. On my longer runs I usually carry very small bottles of
    concentrated sports drink in pockets in my shorts. Gels will work also - just make sure that you're
    getting the right % of carbohydrates.

    With your marathon "only" 4 months away you'll want to be building mileage. Avoid the temptation to
    build up too quickly. Your times of 11:20 for 3000m and
    1:45 for a half on very little training show good potential. Try and schedule at least 1 10K race
    during your buildup and a half marathon a month or so ahead of the marathon. That will give you a
    good idea of where you are pace-wise, and racing experience is invaluable.

    Good luck!

    Anthony.
     
  19. Brendon

    Brendon Guest

    Thanks Dot, though I don't plan on running in the snow. Heck, our winter here where I live gets only
    as low as 8deg C, (not sure F). Though it will be good to take snow skiing (2hrs away) in the
    winter, so I will take your advice and wrap the bladder etc. Thanks, Brendon in NZ

    "Dot" <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    > Ed prochak wrote:
    >
    > > winter air tends to be very dry.
    >
    > Right. And when it goes from subzero F outside to 40F by the time it hits your bronchial tubes, it
    > picks up moisture internally - an additional method of moisture loss, if I understood the book
    > correctly, compared to hot weather moisture loss.
    >
    > You may not have as much sweat on
    > > your skin, so you might think that you are not losing fluid, but you'd be surprised how much
    > > fluid vapor leaves your body in your breath.
    >
    > Right.
    >
    > And
    > > Dot is likely taking just a couple ounces each time, so not really that much over the course of
    > > an hour or more.
    >
    > Right. At any time, it's frequently best to take a little fluid at a time to give the body time to
    > absorb it. In winter, it's *especially critical*, because camelbak hoses or water bottle nozzles
    > freeze if you don't keep fluid running through them every so often - or are sure to clear them
    > after each drink. Same princple as leaving water faucets trickle in house when it gets really cold
    > - frost sometimes goes more than 8 ft deep, the depth of the water lines. I was testing something
    > today and had my fluid freeze in tube within 25 min - about + or -5F, depending on which
    > thermometer I used. I had a water bottle in pack wrapped in insulation so didn't have any
    > problems.
    >
    > While Christmas shopping, I stumbled upon a book on physiology and training for humans and dogs
    > for Iditarod, so I'm starting to learn more about physiology of cold weather running - the "why"
    > behind the "gut" feeling.
    >
    > Dot
    >
    > --
    > "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  20. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Brendon wrote:
    > Thanks Dot, though I don't plan on running in the snow. Heck, our winter here where I live gets
    > only as low as 8deg C, (not sure F).

    Anything above 0C (=freezing point of water=32F), you don't need to worry about frozen fluids :) The
    temperature I referred to was about -15 to -20C.

    Though it will
    > be good to take snow skiing (2hrs away) in the winter, so I will take your advice and wrap the
    > bladder etc.

    Let me share what I've learned so far, but obviously don't have the system perfected - although I
    guess you've got a few months to ski season yet ;) My camelbak is already insulated - both the
    bladder and tube as well as a rubber cover for mouthpiece - and had run much of the tubing through
    my jacket and vest, and the tube still froze
    - presumably in the slightly exposed section. The one thing I did differently yesterday that I can
    think of was to not drink within 10-15 min. In the future, I'll blow the fluid all the way back in
    the bladder, not just out of the mouthpiece.

    People use various tricks. Start with hot fluid, if possible. Some wear cb under their shell if cb
    is one without much gear and keep tube under jacket. Based on yesterday's experience, I don't think
    that's fool proof either in cold enough weather, and I've had trouble in windstorms (very drafty)
    when I've tried that with bottles. I have too much gear in my cb, as do many, so use it outside my
    jacket (bladder is between gear and my back so is insulated there), but looped the tube through pit
    zip in my shell and through armpit of vest (Polarfleece 200). When done drinking, blow fluid back
    into bladder, not just out of the mouthpiece (I've just been blowing out of mouthpiece). Without
    clearing the tube, the most likely place to freeze is the mouthpiece, then the tube, then the
    bladder. Some people put chemical handwarmers near the tube. In really cold weather (-20 to -40F;
    -30 to -40C), ya gotta keep drinking to keep the fluid moving.

    If you have a hydrolock mouthpiece (I don't on the one I use), I think that inserts inside the tube,
    thus restricting flow and perhaps making that a vulnerable point also.

    For completeness, if using water bottles, try to use ones with wide nozzles. The sports drinks turn
    to slushees and jam in the nozzle. There are insulated water bottles (Polar) and insulated pouches
    on waist belts. The one trick I haven't tried with bottles is carry it upside down (be really sure
    the top is on tight), so the ice forms away from the nozzle. That's a tip from someone in Fairbanks,
    and they get a lot colder up there than we do.

    The only local person I've quizzed so far about winter drinking that uses a bottle, just
    unscrews the top and drinks the slushee. Everybody else seems to use cb, although that could be
    related to skiing.

    Something I forgot to mention in earlier post was that dehydration in cold weather can contribute
    toward hypothermia and frostbite and why it's important to stay hydrated.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
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