first report of the Cateye's new rear LED TL-LD1000

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Steve Knight, Sep 27, 2004.

  1. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest

    http://www.primera-bournemouth.co.uk/details.asp?TABLE=type&FKID=96&type=Accessories&ID=1443

    I just got it today. It is about the size of a d battery. Bigger then I
    expected. Man is it bright. I bet it rivals my xenon flasher. Even with the
    lights on looking at it is hard on the eyes from arms length. Really easy to
    change the batteries just twist one end and there you go. You have two rows of
    lights and one button for each. You get blinking steady and running two speeds
    on each one. So you can get away with just one set running at a time.
    I think this is a better choice overall then the xenon. Far longer run times
    and cheaper in the long run.


    I bought mine off of ebay as it is not available yet for the most part in the
    us. Here is the fellow
    http://search.ebay.com/TL-LD1000_Li...sZbsQQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1QQsotrZ2
    Or just do a search for TL-LD1000
    The box claims 100 hours. I think that would be with one set of lights
    running. But it is so bright one is about all you need.


    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
    Tags:


  2. Steve Knight wrote:

    > http://www.primera-bournemouth.co.uk/details.asp?TABLE=type&FKID=96&type=Accessories&ID=1443
    >
    > I just got it today. It is about the size of a d battery. Bigger then I
    > expected. Man is it bright. I bet it rivals my xenon flasher. Even with the
    > lights on looking at it is hard on the eyes from arms length. Really easy to
    > change the batteries just twist one end and there you go. You have two rows of
    > lights and one button for each. You get blinking steady and running two speeds
    > on each one. So you can get away with just one set running at a time.
    > I think this is a better choice overall then the xenon. Far longer run times
    > and cheaper in the long run.


    But unlike Cateye's own TL-BSAU100 light, if you get mown down from
    behind, the lawyers will try and get your compensation reduced because
    the TL-LD1000 is not technically legal in the UK (where I assume you
    live, as the link is to Primera Sport) :-(
     
  3. DRS

    DRS Guest

  4. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    I have a lot of LED taillights, and settle for a pair mounted on the
    top corners of my milk crate, steady beam, as giving the best
    night protection. I've planted the bike far ahead and looked at a lot
    of configurations.

    The pair very much better than any single one.

    It gives instant information that you are a vehicle, and the pair
    gives depth perception.

    Actually I use 4 lights, one above the other on each side, but the
    perception is of two taillights. (Vista Total Eclipse below, Vista
    Nebula above). The pairing gives protection against a battery running
    out unannounced, and also reproduces the size of a car taillight.

    Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
    for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
    to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

    Adding more lights (say a Liddy light atop and in the middle) ruins
    the conventional vehicle configuration and appears to confuse things
    for the driver behind; it takes him longer to figure out what's going
    on.

    You don't need a brighter light once you're to that level of brightness;
    what you need is clear marking of your motion and position. A
    conventional placement of lights does that best.

    All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
    So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
    you add LED's.

    One problem is aiming. You have to aim them back down the road or
    you're not really bright, which more or less rules out clipping to
    clothing.
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  5. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    Ron Hardin wrote:
    > Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
    > for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
    > to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.


    Actually there's an execption - I was walking the bike home with a flat and
    it was useful to set the right hand lights flashing, as if a vehicle signalling
    to pull over to the edge of the road. Instant recognition as stopped vehicle
    on edge of road. Steady left taillight, flashing right.
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  6. Ron Hardin wrote:

    > I have a lot of LED taillights, and settle for a pair mounted on the
    > top corners of my milk crate, steady beam, as giving the best
    > night protection. I've planted the bike far ahead and looked at a lot
    > of configurations.
    >
    > The pair very much better than any single one.
    >
    > It gives instant information that you are a vehicle, and the pair
    > gives depth perception.


    I don't see how the number of lights affects depth perception, that's
    more an issue of the number of eyeballs...

    I would be a bit nervous of such a rig lest the two relatively close
    together red lights might be taken for a far-away car...

    > Actually I use 4 lights, one above the other on each side, but the
    > perception is of two taillights.


    That probably gets around this issue.

    > (Vista Total Eclipse below, Vista
    > Nebula above). The pairing gives protection against a battery running
    > out unannounced, and also reproduces the size of a car taillight.
    >
    > Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
    > for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
    > to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.


    The subject taillight has two separately controlled banks of LEDs, you
    can set one for steady and the other for blinking and have the best of both.

    > Adding more lights (say a Liddy light atop and in the middle) ruins
    > the conventional vehicle configuration and appears to confuse things
    > for the driver behind; it takes him longer to figure out what's going
    > on.


    I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. Many drivers are on mental
    autopilot, automatically pigeonholing things they see as they drive.
    Something out-of-the-ordinary can get their attention and wake them up a
    bit.

    > All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
    > So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
    > you add LED's.


    The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
    comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.

    > One problem is aiming. You have to aim them back down the road or
    > you're not really bright, which more or less rules out clipping to
    > clothing.


    That's very true of the subject model, due to its optics.

    http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/lighting/battery.html#tail

    Sheldon "I Like It" Brown
    +-------------------------------------------------+
    | What is good for you is what is good for you. |
    | --Peter Chisholm |
    +-------------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  7. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > > Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
    > > for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
    > > to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

    >
    > The subject taillight has two separately controlled banks of LEDs, you
    > can set one for steady and the other for blinking and have the best of both.


    My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
    unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
    to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.

    Which doesn't come from two eyes, but from taking an orientation from the
    seen object. One eye works as well at a large distance.

    Part of the motion that cues you to depth is ruined by flashing, in addition
    to is being unfamiliar.

    At _some_ point, getting attention is accomplished by the lights you have.
    At that point, flashing is a detriment.

    It's possible (I didn't test) that with a _single_ light you don't reach the
    attention threshold very easily, and maybe flashing buys you something that
    you need. With _two_ lights though, the attention comes from automatic
    recognition of what two lights means (all the attention you want or need,
    incidentally) and flashing just lessens competence at judgment on the part of the
    driver.
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  8. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > > All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
    > > So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
    > > you add LED's.

    >
    > The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
    > comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.


    The effect I wanted to point out was that, as I laid out all my LED taillights at
    once at night, and walked a distance away, there was no impression that there were
    brighter and darker lights, just bigger and smaller ones; which corresponded to the
    number of LED's.

    More LED's is bigger, not brighter.
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  9. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest


    >But unlike Cateye's own TL-BSAU100 light, if you get mown down from
    >behind, the lawyers will try and get your compensation reduced because
    >the TL-LD1000 is not technically legal in the UK (where I assume you
    >live, as the link is to Primera Sport) :-(


    I am in the us.

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  10. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest


    >My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
    >unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
    >to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.


    a red flashing blinkie is a pretty good indicator of a bike in the us.

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  11. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    Steve Knight wrote:
    >
    > >My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
    > >unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
    > >to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.

    >
    > a red flashing blinkie is a pretty good indicator of a bike in the us.


    Not particularly. It might be a construction marker. Bicycle is pretty far down
    on the list of what it might be. That is, the driver would guess construction
    marker (why red? he would wonder) before he thought of bicycle.

    Motorcycles don't use blinkies. Instead they have a pair of steady reds.

    You're trying to communicate two things : that you're a vehicle, and your orientation
    and motion.

    As I say, with a _single_ light, you're pretty much out of luck. Maybe blinking
    is the best deal there and hope for the best. But with two separated lights,
    steady does the best communication, giving instant recognition of what you want
    recognized.

    Adding lights to the ``taillight pattern'' makes things go worse rather than better,
    just because it ruins an instantly recognizeable pattern.

    Flashing the lights not only does that too, unless it's in a turn pattern or an
    emergency flasher pattern (both good when you're stopped for something), but
    denies good motion and depth perception to the driver. Like the speed of separation
    of the lights gives a closing rate.

    Try it on yourself, if you have multiple lights, or even a single one. Part the
    bike some dark night at the mailbox and drive past it.

    The two questions are : 1. Did you have trouble noticing it? If so, you have
    another problem. If not, 2. How quickly did you recognize it and what to do
    about it?

    The flashing lights fail #2.
    --
    Ron Hardin
    [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  12. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "Ron Hardin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    [...]

    > One problem is aiming. You have to aim them back down the road or
    > you're not really bright, which more or less rules out clipping to
    > clothing.


    I saw a weird one the other night. I was driving down an ordinary suburban
    arterial road which was otherwise well-enough lit that I had no trouble
    seeing the cyclist at a decent distance, but he didn't have a red rear light
    on his bike. Instead he had what seemed to be a 5 red LED unit on some kind
    of collar around his neck. It wasn't all that bright, perhaps because LEDs
    are directional and so were pointing in the "wrong" direction despite his
    relatively upright position. It was also too high. I had to look up to see
    it, there was no way it was going to grab my attention the way you'd think
    he'd want it to.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  13. Pat Lamb

    Pat Lamb Guest

    Steve Knight wrote:
    > http://www.primera-bournemouth.co.uk/details.asp?TABLE=type&FKID=96&type=Accessories&ID=1443
    >
    > I just got it today. It is about the size of a d battery. Bigger then I
    > expected. Man is it bright. I bet it rivals my xenon flasher. Even with the
    > lights on looking at it is hard on the eyes from arms length. Really easy to
    > change the batteries just twist one end and there you go. You have two rows of
    > lights and one button for each. You get blinking steady and running two speeds
    > on each one. So you can get away with just one set running at a time.
    > I think this is a better choice overall then the xenon. Far longer run times
    > and cheaper in the long run.
    >
    >
    > I bought mine off of ebay as it is not available yet for the most part in the
    > us. Here is the fellow
    > http://search.ebay.com/TL-LD1000_Li...sZbsQQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1QQsotrZ2
    > Or just do a search for TL-LD1000
    > The box claims 100 hours. I think that would be with one set of lights
    > running. But it is so bright one is about all you need.


    Ick. Four rows, with one switch per row? With my fat fingers, it'd
    take me 15 minutes to get them all lit up! And if you only need one
    row, why pay for all the others?

    Pat
     
  14. On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:05:43 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Sheldon Brown wrote:
    >> > Flashing modes are a big mistake. They gather attention but only
    >> > for a second at the start; after that they deny good depth perception
    >> > to the following driver who knows either way that you're there already.

    >>
    >> The subject taillight has two separately controlled banks of LEDs, you
    >> can set one for steady and the other for blinking and have the best of both.

    >
    >My tests on myself are pretty strongly otherwise. The flashing makes it
    >unrecognizeable as to what it might be, to the driver; he doesn't know what
    >to do about it, and as I say the flashing ruins the practiced depth perception.
    >
    >Which doesn't come from two eyes, but from taking an orientation from the
    >seen object. One eye works as well at a large distance.
    >
    >Part of the motion that cues you to depth is ruined by flashing, in addition
    >to is being unfamiliar.
    >
    >At _some_ point, getting attention is accomplished by the lights you have.
    >At that point, flashing is a detriment.
    >
    >It's possible (I didn't test) that with a _single_ light you don't reach the
    >attention threshold very easily, and maybe flashing buys you something that
    >you need. With _two_ lights though, the attention comes from automatic
    >recognition of what two lights means (all the attention you want or need,
    >incidentally) and flashing just lessens competence at judgment on the part of the
    >driver.


    Ron, I set my multi-modal real blinky to (how to describe?) not flash,
    but do the side-to-side cascade effect. I think you know what I mean.
    The lighted pattern forms bands which move from side to side. Some
    LEDS remain on.
    Michael J. Klein [email protected]
    Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
    Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
    ---------------------------------------------
     
  15. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest


    >Ick. Four rows, with one switch per row? With my fat fingers, it'd
    >take me 15 minutes to get them all lit up! And if you only need one
    >row, why pay for all the others?


    only two rows and two switches.

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  16. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest


    >Not particularly. It might be a construction marker. Bicycle is pretty far down
    >on the list of what it might be. That is, the driver would guess construction
    >marker (why red? he would wonder) before he thought of bicycle.


    I have never seen a red construction marker. red blinkies are pretty standard
    fair on a bike and I think drivers know this.

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  17. Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Ron Hardin wrote:
    >>All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
    >>So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
    >>you add LED's.

    >The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
    >comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.


    Does that not imply low off-axis intensity? I don't want to light up the
    ground or passing birds, of course, but I'd like my tail light to be
    visible from the side...
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
     
  18. Ron Hardin wrote:
    >>
    >>>All the LED taillights seem to have about the same brightness per LED.
    >>>So the perceived brightness is the same, but the area lit grows, as
    >>>you add LED's.


    I wrote:

    >>The subject unit has sophisticated optics that focus the L.E.D.s to a
    >>comparatively tight beam, very high on-axis intensity.

    >

    David Damerell asked
    >
    > Does that not imply low off-axis intensity? I don't want to light up the
    > ground or passing birds, of course, but I'd like my tail light to be
    > visible from the side...


    This unit has 2 L.E.D.s on each side pointed at 90 degrees.

    Sheldon "TANSTAAFL" Brown
    +--------------------------------------------+
    | If you haven’t yet discovered the novels |
    | of Neal Stephenson, don’t wait! |
    | Start with Snow Crash or Quicksilver |
    +--------------------------------------------+
    Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
    Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
    http://harriscyclery.com
    Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  19. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Michael J. Klein wrote:
    > Ron, I set my multi-modal real blinky to (how to describe?) not flash,
    > but do the side-to-side cascade effect. I think you know what I mean.
    > The lighted pattern forms bands which move from side to side. Some
    > LEDS remain on.


    Look at that from a half a block away. It is just "on" to a
    driver. The subtleties are lost at even fifty feet.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  20. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest

    On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:42:56 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]>

    >This unit has 2 L.E.D.s on each side pointed at 90 degrees.


    yep this is the reason I got it. saves having to use another source for that
    job.

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
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