First Rucksac

AndyP said:

Whenever I've bumped into what I generally assume are Duke of Edinburgh groups they always seem to
be struggling under huge rucksacks and not enjoying it much. Probably puts 'em off backpacking for
life which is a shame.

Indeed. I always found it sad that many people considered DoE hikes to be something to be endured
rather than enjoyed. In Scouting, I thought of it rather differently.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK Mail me on neil at the above domain; mail to the above address
is NOT read

"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

PS - I am not superhuman, I got invalided off the All-Arms Commando

course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I shouldn't have snapped at you like that. The younglings here had been winding me up, but
that's no excuse for taking it out on the NG. Have an 'ug and a cuppa.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

That's okay dokey! Unfortunately weight and "over techy" kit are one of my hobby horses......

Paul Saunders said:

AndyP wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whenever I've bumped into what I generally assume are Duke of Edinburgh groups they always seem to
be struggling under huge rucksacks and not enjoying it much.

The D of E folk are between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand you want to get people Out
There but on the other you want them to be safe and as a practical spinoff of that you don't want to
get sued if something goes wrong. I think the best you can hope for is that the kids concerned enjoy
the places if not the actual steps taken to get to them (pretty much how I felt about hiking with
part of a Force 10 in an external frame pack that was too big for me and not exactly much compared
to today's state of the art).

Quoted message said:

How can you put together a lightweight kit using cheap gear without leaving out essentials, the
maths just don't add up.

You're quite right. The thing is that what is "essential" isn't a fixed point. I've met D of E
groups hiking with far more stuff than they really needed, but as noted above the judgement of what
is needed is something you can only gain from experience, and better safe than sorry is the very
reasonable line taken with what to put in.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

How can you put together a lightweight kit using cheap gear without leaving out essentials, the
maths just don't add up.

Cheap and lightweight don't have to be opposite scenarios. 'Mac in a Sac' type waterproofs are as
light as they come for about a tenner. Or if you want breathable ones Craghoppers used to do their
Pakka for £30. £30 also ofcourse gets you the legendary Pro Action tent of similar weight to others
costing hundreds more. Don't know much about dirt cheap sleeping bags but my 650g one was bought
also because of its relative cheapness at about £50. Cheap rucksacks with less techy bits should be
lighter than more expensive ones, my LA Walkabout 45 weighs about 1400g. I've got another old one of
a similar size that someone gave me without any fancy back system that certainly looks cheap and
weighs 850g. And as far as my bodyheat system works the most essential aid to warmth without weight
is a hat. I got a nice one in a chemist's for £2 at Xmas. I reckon a hat is equivalent to a layer of
fleece costing a hell of a lot more.

Quoted message said:

I've never been able to figure out the maths of travelling light with cheap gear. I've known one
or two people who've travelled really light in the past, and I know why, they left out essentials.
No maps, no first aid kit, no stove etc. Why not? "Oh don't worry, Paul will bring all those
things!"

I've no idea what the DofE kids that I originally mentioned are told to pack but "essential" clearly
means different things to different people in different circumstances. The only things that are ever
really essential though are enough clothes to protect you from the elements and enough food and
water to keep you functioning. Ofcourse most people take more than that for enjoyment and comfort
but the more you take the heavier it gets and comfort and enjoyment then start to decrease.
Somewhere in the middle is your OWBH (optimum weight for backpacking happiness).

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Could I have 2 hundredweight of best welsh coal then please?
>
Yes of course. Tower Colliery are still producing it, and they have a cash'n'carry wossname at
the pit in Hirwaun. Do call in here for a cuppa on your way to there... ;-)

I would come from the other direction!

*Sniff*. Suit yourself. ;-)

Anyway I thought the idea was for he who carries heavy loads to deliver?

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AndyP wrote:

Quoted message said:

I've never been able to figure out the maths of travelling light with cheap gear. I've known one
or two people who've travelled really light in the past, and I know why, they left out essentials.
No maps, no first aid kit, no stove etc. Why not? "Oh don't worry, Paul will bring all those
things!"

We run a session on our district expedition course about weight reduction and we can nearly always
cut down a YP's pack by 25-50%

- You don't need a full tube of toothpaste, the dog end with a few days left is enough.
- You don't need a whole face cloth.
- A small sports towel is enough for hiking
- You don't need, radios, walkmen, books, [censored] like that
- Your camp knife and a spoon are the only cutlery you need.
- Eat from the trangia.
- Clean you trangia with a clump of grass first, then just clean with a small amount of detergent
afterwards.
- take any extra fittings/straps off you rucksack
- an ex-army metal "kidney" cup is lightweight, can be used for an emergency Billy, eating your
cereal/porridge whatever.
- If you strip off at night you will be warmer than seeping in today's clothes so you don't need a
bigger sleeping bag
- Food is the normal waste. If you are expecting to get clean water at each stop then don't carry
food in liquid, like baked beans!

It all adds up.

--
--
Stephen Rainsbury
SL 8th Gillingham
DSL/DESA Gillingham District

AndyP said:

Cheap and lightweight don't have to be opposite scenarios.

Well maybe not nowadays, but they did when I were a lad...

You do have to think about it though. How many newbies are weight conscious when buying gear? If
they are inexperienced they may not realise how significant the weight is, so will choose gear that
looks cool rather than the lightest possible stuff.

Paul
--
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photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Stephen Rainsbury said:

We run a session on our district expedition course about weight reduction and we can nearly always
cut down a YP's pack by 25-50%

If you want some really lightweight backpacking advice have a look here.

backpackinglight.com00034.htmlOpen ↗

I don't think I could enjoy myself with the 12 lb pack, the one I usually carry for a week is 35-40
lbs and that is no liquid.

--
Don`t Worry, Be Happy

Sandy
--

E-Mail:- [email hidden] Website:- ftscotland.co.ukftscotland.co.ukOpen ↗ IRC:- Sandyb in #rabble
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ICQ : 41266150

Rifleman said:

"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

PS - I am not superhuman, I got invalided off the All-Arms Commando

course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I shouldn't have snapped at you like that. The younglings here had been winding me up, but
that's no excuse for taking it out on the NG. Have an 'ug and a cuppa.

Quoted message said:

That's okay dokey! Unfortunately weight and "over techy" kit are one of my hobby horses......

Does that mean you approve or disapprove of titanium pots?

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Quoted message said:

I am saying to the OP, don't discount sacs just because there is no waistbelt.

IMO this advice is execrably bad : any rucksack that lacks a decent, useable hipbelt is utterly
useless and not worthy of consideration.

Quoted message said:

A waistbelt only comes into real usefulness with large loads and/or uneven terrain.

No. The hipbelt on any properly designed, well-fitting rucksack is worth having even if you're only
using it to pop down to the shops to buy a newspaper.

Quoted message said:

the other factor is weight. Youngsters should NEVER carry more than 20 lbs and for that sort of
weight you do NOT need a waist belt!

I agree that anyone should aim to minimise the weight they carry but your statement that a hipbelt
is only useful for heavy loads is codswallop.

--
Boo

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

which to keep anything - in cheap backpacks from either Aldi or Lidl (I can't remember which it
was) and these are fine too. I've got a larger backpack from the same place and as others in urw
will testify they are well worth the £not-a-lot.

We are talking rucksacks not school backpacks.

Yes I know. Have you hefted a school bag recently? Gone are the days when things could be left at
school overnight for the following day; these days the children round here have to carry everything
at all times. No desks; no lockers; no nuffin'. And when we go out as a family it's bags of the same
design that we take with us to put everything in. Perhaps I can remind people here that the OP
didn't say his lads would be doing an overnight *backpacking* hike - at least I don't think he did -
he just said they'd be camping overnight.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

"Boo" <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am saying to the OP, don't discount sacs just because there is no waistbelt.

IMO this advice is execrably bad : any rucksack that lacks a decent, useable hipbelt is utterly
useless and not worthy of consideration.

Quoted message said:

A waistbelt only
comes into real usefulness with large loads and/or uneven terrain.

No. The hipbelt on any properly designed, well-fitting rucksack is worth having even if you're
only using it to pop down to the shops to buy a newspaper.

Quoted message said:

the other
factor is weight. Youngsters should NEVER carry more than 20 lbs and for that sort of weight you
do NOT need a waist belt!

I agree that anyone should aim to minimise the weight they carry but your statement that a hipbelt
is only useful for heavy loads is

codswallop.

Quoted message said:

Absolute [censored].

"Boo" <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am saying to the OP, don't discount sacs just because there is no waistbelt.

IMO this advice is execrably bad : any rucksack that lacks a decent, useable hipbelt is utterly
useless and not worthy of consideration.

Bollocks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A waistbelt only
comes into real usefulness with large loads and/or uneven terrain.

No. The hipbelt on any properly designed, well-fitting rucksack is worth having even if you're
only using it to pop down to the shops to buy a newspaper.

Again - Bollocks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the other
factor is weight. Youngsters should NEVER carry more than 20 lbs and for that sort of weight you
do NOT need a waist belt!

I agree that anyone should aim to minimise the weight they carry but your statement that a hipbelt
is only useful for heavy loads is

codswallop.

Quoted message said:

--
Boo

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rifleman said:

"Fran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...
> PS - I am not superhuman, I got invalided off the All-Arms Commando

course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I shouldn't have snapped at you like that. The younglings here had been winding me up,
but that's no excuse for taking it out on the NG. Have an 'ug and a cuppa.

Quoted message said:

That's okay dokey! Unfortunately weight and "over techy" kit are one of

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hobby horses......

Does that mean you approve or disapprove of titanium pots?

is that a trick question?

In article <[email hidden]>, Rifleman <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Boo" <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am saying to the OP, don't discount sacs just because there is no waistbelt.

IMO this advice is execrably bad : any rucksack that lacks a decent, useable hipbelt is utterly
useless and not worthy of consideration.

Quoted message said:

A waistbelt only
comes into real usefulness with large loads and/or uneven terrain.

No. The hipbelt on any properly designed, well-fitting rucksack is worth having even if you're
only using it to pop down to the shops to buy a newspaper.

Quoted message said:

the other
factor is weight. Youngsters should NEVER carry more than 20 lbs and for that sort of weight
you do NOT need a waist belt!

I agree that anyone should aim to minimise the weight they carry but your statement that a
hipbelt is only useful for heavy loads is

codswallop.

Quoted message said:

How much cod?

How much wallop?

;-)

I have always considered that having a waist strap allowed me to chose whether I used it or not.

Not having one eliminated that choice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Absolute [censored].

The above is an alias reserved for GAGS' email munge. S/he may even have registered it as a
trademark!

;-)

--
Derek Biddle

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tesco/Argos bags vary dramtiaclly, normally crappy thin straps that

curl up

Quoted message said:

into a curved knife edge and poor seams, as a rule I avoid them.

Owowowow.

Ignore him. I've had several 'cheap' supermarket bags and the straps have been fine. OK, the seams
might not be so good after the kids have been carrying books and other things with sharp edges in
for a few months, but what do you want for the price?

Horses for courses.

If the course is at school for a few lessons where the YP will carry (admittedly large) weights with
books with sharp edges for a (relatively) short distance, then there is a lot of stress on the
seams, but not a sustained load on the pupil / wearer.

At 10 Km hike is different. Hopefully they will not carry books with sharp edges, but if the straps
feel sharp on their shoulders after the first 5 Km, then the horse has been picked incorrectly.

No one should move the stress from the seams to the YP as a result of the change of course.

--
Derek Biddle

In article <[email hidden]>, marc
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Note that many packs are available in "women's fit", part of which translates to shorter back
lengths which may well be more appropriate for a child with growing time ahead of them. Since
the stuff doesn't have "women's" written on it, by and large, there shouldn't be any issues with
image-conscious lads worried about name calling.

The one that I bought Gethin last year was a ladies model.

Quote

'Thanks Dad'

;-)

--
Derek Biddle

Stephen Rainsbury said:

We run a session on our district expedition course about weight reduction and we can nearly always
cut down a YP's pack by 25-50%

- You don't need a full tube of toothpaste, the dog end with a few days left is enough.

Yep, that's what I bring.

Quoted message said:

- You don't need a whole face cloth.

Don't bring a face cloth.

Quoted message said:

- A small sports towel is enough for hiking

I use a small pertex towel, hardly weighs anything.

Quoted message said:

- You don't need, radios, walkmen, books, [censored] like that

I don't bring radios or walkmen, I like to get away from things like that, but a well chosen book
can be handy to help pass the time during those long winter nights. Not much use in summer though, I
find I don't have time to read then.

Quoted message said:

- Your camp knife and a spoon are the only cutlery you need.

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

- Eat from the trangia.

I presume you mean straight out of the pot. Of course.

Quoted message said:

- Clean you trangia with a clump of grass first, then just clean with a small amount of detergent
afterwards.

I don't bother with detergent. I also use pebbles and sand from the river to help clean pans.

Quoted message said:

- take any extra fittings/straps off you rucksack

Ah, but I actually use the straps on my rucksack! Useful for attaching tent, sleeping mat, tripod,
walking poles, wet waterproofs etc.

Quoted message said:

- an ex-army metal "kidney" cup is lightweight, can be used for an emergency Billy, eating your
cereal/porridge whatever.

Ugh! I can't stand metal cups. Burnt my lips the first time I tried one. I prefer plastic.

Quoted message said:

- If you strip off at night you will be warmer than seeping in today's clothes

Isn't this just a myth? How can you be warmer wearing less clothes?

Quoted message said:

so you don't need a bigger sleeping bag

Wouldn't buy a bigger one anyway. Why would a few clothes make a difference to the
sleeping bag size?

Quoted message said:

- Food is the normal waste. If you are expecting to get clean water at each stop then don't carry
food in liquid, like baked beans!

Absolutely not! Dried food mostly, but I've always had a habit of carrying too much chocolate (not a
problem anymore though). You do need some real food for snacks whilst walking though, so what would
you recommend instead of chocolate for those much needed energy boosts before a hard climb?

Quoted message said:

It all adds up.

It certainly does. Glad you didn't suggest ditching my cameras! ;-)

Paul
--
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Sandy said:

If you want some really lightweight backpacking advice have a look here.

backpackinglight.com00034.htmlOpen ↗

Thanks for the link, I've saved it for later reading.

Quoted message said:

I don't think I could enjoy myself with the 12 lb pack,

I think that's a bit extreme. Maybe okay during a summer heatwave but hardly ideal for typical UK
conditions, even in summer.

Quoted message said:

the one I usually carry for a week is 35-40 lbs and that is no liquid.

That's a far more sensible weight! :-) Glad to hear I'm not the only one who carries all the
essential luxuries!

But I really do want to seriously cut down this year though, I want to try this lightweight
backpacking thing, but I doubt I could manage ultra-lightweight.

Paul
--
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In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps I can remind people here that the OP didn't say his lads would be doing an overnight
*backpacking* hike - at least I don't think he did - he just said they'd be camping overnight.

I didn't but they will be.