Firts group ride. What happened?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by [email protected], Apr 20, 2006.

  1. Hi All,

    I went on fourth ride of the season today. Prior to today I had about
    50km in my legs. Today was a club ride. The first interval/echelon ride
    of the year. It was a bit chaotic, as some folks were a bit to eager
    and the pace kept creeping upward, but all in all it went ok. The club
    has been riding for weeks, and several folks are just back from cycling
    vacations om Mallorca, so some folks were in very good shape. We split
    up into groups of 10, and rode 5 ten-minute hard intervals, with 4
    minutes rest between each one. The terrain is rolling.

    Last year I weighed about 100kg and would usually get dropped on one of
    or both of the last intervals, particularly if the timing was such that
    I ended up wasted just as we got to one of the small hills. My pulse
    varied from 175-185. If it stayed above 180 for any length of time, I
    would get dropped.

    This year I weigh 105kg (I like to think it is upper body muscles from
    LOTS of XC skiing), and I managed to not get dropped, almost. But my
    pulse never went above 175.

    Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    happened?

    Joseph
     
    Tags:


  2. Lou Holtman

    Lou Holtman Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Hi All,
    >
    > I went on fourth ride of the season today. Prior to today I had about
    > 50km in my legs. Today was a club ride. The first interval/echelon ride
    > of the year. It was a bit chaotic, as some folks were a bit to eager
    > and the pace kept creeping upward, but all in all it went ok. The club
    > has been riding for weeks, and several folks are just back from cycling
    > vacations om Mallorca, so some folks were in very good shape. We split
    > up into groups of 10, and rode 5 ten-minute hard intervals, with 4
    > minutes rest between each one. The terrain is rolling.
    >
    > Last year I weighed about 100kg and would usually get dropped on one of
    > or both of the last intervals, particularly if the timing was such that
    > I ended up wasted just as we got to one of the small hills. My pulse
    > varied from 175-185. If it stayed above 180 for any length of time, I
    > would get dropped.
    >
    > This year I weigh 105kg (I like to think it is upper body muscles from
    > LOTS of XC skiing), and I managed to not get dropped, almost. But my
    > pulse never went above 175.
    >
    > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > happened?
    >
    > Joseph
    >



    Geez, you only have 50 km in your legs and your suprised to got dropped
    in a hard interval training? The first three weeks (500-1000 km) of my
    new season I only do endurance training and after that I start interval
    or speed training. Don't push it in the beginning.

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu
     
  3. Lou Holtman wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > Hi All,
    > >
    > > I went on fourth ride of the season today. Prior to today I had about
    > > 50km in my legs. Today was a club ride. The first interval/echelon ride
    > > of the year. It was a bit chaotic, as some folks were a bit to eager
    > > and the pace kept creeping upward, but all in all it went ok. The club
    > > has been riding for weeks, and several folks are just back from cycling
    > > vacations om Mallorca, so some folks were in very good shape. We split
    > > up into groups of 10, and rode 5 ten-minute hard intervals, with 4
    > > minutes rest between each one. The terrain is rolling.
    > >
    > > Last year I weighed about 100kg and would usually get dropped on one of
    > > or both of the last intervals, particularly if the timing was such that
    > > I ended up wasted just as we got to one of the small hills. My pulse
    > > varied from 175-185. If it stayed above 180 for any length of time, I
    > > would get dropped.
    > >
    > > This year I weigh 105kg (I like to think it is upper body muscles from
    > > LOTS of XC skiing), and I managed to not get dropped, almost. But my
    > > pulse never went above 175.
    > >
    > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > > happened?
    > >
    > > Joseph
    > >

    >
    >
    > Geez, you only have 50 km in your legs and your suprised to got dropped
    > in a hard interval training? The first three weeks (500-1000 km) of my
    > new season I only do endurance training and after that I start interval
    > or speed training. Don't push it in the beginning.
    >


    I'm not surprised about geting droppped. If anything I am surprised I
    was able to hang on as long as I did. What I am curious about is why my
    pulse never went over 175, yet I got dropped, while last year it had to
    go to 185 to get dropped. Despite being heavier, I am in better
    cadio-vascular shape than last year due to lots of skiing, but I am
    still curious about the physiological aspects.

    Joseph
     
  4. Ron Ruff

    Ron Ruff Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > happened?


    Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...
     
  5. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On 20 Apr 2006 14:02:11 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >Lou Holtman wrote:
    >> [email protected] wrote:
    >> > Hi All,
    >> >
    >> > I went on fourth ride of the season today. Prior to today I had about
    >> > 50km in my legs. Today was a club ride. The first interval/echelon ride
    >> > of the year. It was a bit chaotic, as some folks were a bit to eager
    >> > and the pace kept creeping upward, but all in all it went ok. The club
    >> > has been riding for weeks, and several folks are just back from cycling
    >> > vacations om Mallorca, so some folks were in very good shape. We split
    >> > up into groups of 10, and rode 5 ten-minute hard intervals, with 4
    >> > minutes rest between each one. The terrain is rolling.
    >> >
    >> > Last year I weighed about 100kg and would usually get dropped on one of
    >> > or both of the last intervals, particularly if the timing was such that
    >> > I ended up wasted just as we got to one of the small hills. My pulse
    >> > varied from 175-185. If it stayed above 180 for any length of time, I
    >> > would get dropped.
    >> >
    >> > This year I weigh 105kg (I like to think it is upper body muscles from
    >> > LOTS of XC skiing), and I managed to not get dropped, almost. But my
    >> > pulse never went above 175.
    >> >
    >> > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    >> > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    >> > happened?
    >> >
    >> > Joseph
    >> >

    >>
    >>
    >> Geez, you only have 50 km in your legs and your suprised to got dropped
    >> in a hard interval training? The first three weeks (500-1000 km) of my
    >> new season I only do endurance training and after that I start interval
    >> or speed training. Don't push it in the beginning.
    >>

    >
    >I'm not surprised about geting droppped. If anything I am surprised I
    >was able to hang on as long as I did. What I am curious about is why my
    >pulse never went over 175, yet I got dropped, while last year it had to
    >go to 185 to get dropped. Despite being heavier, I am in better
    >cadio-vascular shape than last year due to lots of skiing, but I am
    >still curious about the physiological aspects.


    Probably don't have the cycling specific strength to stress your cardio,
    especially if that's in better shape.

    I don't see anything surprising about this. Right now your legs are the weak
    link and your heart doesn't even have to beat that fast to max them out.

    Ron
     
  6. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Ron Ruff wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > > happened?

    >
    > Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    > factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...


    This is certainly true. Later in the season, you'll notice that when
    you crack, it hurts a lot worse than it does now because your
    cardio-pulmonary systems were at their limits at the same time as your
    legs. The thing is that you'll be going a lot faster when it happens.

    Also, don't forget that your VO2Max will determine at what heart rate
    you can sustain yourself. As you increase VO2M, your aerobic threshold
    goes up, and you can pump higher heart rates sustainably.

    All these variables will come into sync as the season progresses. For
    now, I'd start working on sprint, and interval workouts, once a week
    each. Try 1 minute intervals with 4 recovery minutes between, but cover
    as much real estate as you possibly can in that minute. For sprints,
    try to explode forward for 20-25 seconds. Grow fangs and growl, rip
    your cleats off your shoes, and snap your chain from the power of your
    legs (well, at least it should feel that way), and do it all at 100-180
    rpm.

    This will catch your legs up to your heart and lungs...

    -Mike
     
  7. Mike Reed wrote:
    > Ron Ruff wrote:
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > > > happened?

    > >
    > > Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    > > factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...

    >
    > This is certainly true. Later in the season, you'll notice that when
    > you crack, it hurts a lot worse than it does now because your
    > cardio-pulmonary systems were at their limits at the same time as your
    > legs. The thing is that you'll be going a lot faster when it happens.


    That's just it. I am used to getting dropped being a very unpleasant
    experience. It normally (for me at least) is a semi-conscious decision
    to throw in the towel from not being able to suffer any more. This time
    I was in no real discomfort, I just couldn't go any faster. I felt like
    an observer.

    I guess the low frequency and high loading that characterizes skiing is
    more different than the high frequency, low loading of cycling than I
    had anticipated.

    > Also, don't forget that your VO2Max will determine at what heart rate
    > you can sustain yourself. As you increase VO2M, your aerobic threshold
    > goes up, and you can pump higher heart rates sustainably.


    That brings up a point I have been pondering. I'll start a new thread
    later to explore that, rather than get into it here.

    > All these variables will come into sync as the season progresses. For
    > now, I'd start working on sprint, and interval workouts, once a week
    > each. Try 1 minute intervals with 4 recovery minutes between, but cover
    > as much real estate as you possibly can in that minute. For sprints,
    > try to explode forward for 20-25 seconds. Grow fangs and growl, rip
    > your cleats off your shoes, and snap your chain from the power of your
    > legs (well, at least it should feel that way), and do it all at 100-180
    > rpm.
    >
    > This will catch your legs up to your heart and lungs...


    Sounds like fun! I have a small loop near my house I do on my MTB that
    I used for a similar exercise last year. The problem is that this year
    I am so much stronger that going fast enough to get the workout I need
    is dangerous on this loop. Gotta find a new loop!

    So the idea is to try sprint/intervals at high rpm, high power? Just
    going all-out?

    Joseph
     
  8. Greg

    Greg Guest

    Mike Reed wrote:
    > Ron Ruff wrote:
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > > > happened?

    > >
    > > Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    > > factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...

    >
    > This is certainly true. Later in the season, you'll notice that when
    > you crack, it hurts a lot worse than it does now because your
    > cardio-pulmonary systems were at their limits at the same time as your
    > legs. The thing is that you'll be going a lot faster when it happens.
    >
    > Also, don't forget that your VO2Max will determine at what heart rate
    > you can sustain yourself. As you increase VO2M, your aerobic threshold
    > goes up, and you can pump higher heart rates sustainably.
    >
    > All these variables will come into sync as the season progresses. For
    > now, I'd start working on sprint, and interval workouts, once a week
    > each. Try 1 minute intervals with 4 recovery minutes between, but cover
    > as much real estate as you possibly can in that minute. For sprints,
    > try to explode forward for 20-25 seconds. Grow fangs and growl, rip
    > your cleats off your shoes, and snap your chain from the power of your
    > legs (well, at least it should feel that way), and do it all at 100-180
    > rpm.
    >
    > This will catch your legs up to your heart and lungs...
    >
    > -Mike


    Another really useful training exercise is to get another rider of
    equal or slighty better fitness than you. Ride one behind the other at
    say, 18 mph (arbitrary starting point). The rider at the front holds
    18 and the rider behind accelerates around him (not sprint, think
    "snap" - just a mile or two an hour). The rider at the front has to
    accelerate a bit to grab the passing rider's wheel, and now they are
    going 20. Now the "new rider" at the front holds that speed, say 20
    and after 15 or 20 seconds, the rider in the back does the same thing,
    he "snaps" around at say 22 and holds it as the rider being passed has
    to grab his wheel, now putting the pair at 22 mph. The repeats as each
    pass increases the speed until one or both riders "blow up". The
    important component is that whichever rider is at the front does NOT
    slow down and does NOT pull off. The speed is controlled by the rider
    coming around from the back.

    The point of the exercise is being forced to accelerate at increasing
    speed. It's not really intervals, and it's not really sprints. It
    focuses on one of the most important aspects of cycling ability and
    fitness level (beyond just spinning) and that is to be able to
    accelerate. A side benefit is that it will help you to "grab that
    wheel" as it comes past you in a training ride or a race situation.

    Try it once a week. Do three sets with COMPLETE recovery in between
    efforts. Take another day or two and go do long slow rides (2-3 hours
    at 60% of your max HR). Take another day and go find some long hills
    and do intervals or even up hill sprints. Do a tempo day (70-80% of
    you max HR for 20 to 30 minute stretches). Then MOST important of all
    REST - this means to either ride a couple of days for an hour or so
    that are slower than you ever thought it possible to ride, or take the
    day(s) off the bike and go do something else. The latter helps you
    mentally as well as physically. Go play tennis, or basketball, or
    frisbee, or whatever. I personally find that I need one day a week off
    the bike, and it is usually the second day after my hardest workout,
    the day after being 15 mile ride at 12 miles an hour in a 39x21. It
    helps to get the crap out of your legs and has a similar effect to
    getting a massage (without the feel-good part).

    Oh, and also very important...you should really get some EASY base
    miles in before you do ANY of what I just suggested. I'd say at least
    400 to 500 miles. This builds all the muscle systems at the cellular
    level to get them ready for the heavy work. If you do it too early,
    you get the best results and you'll find that you aren't reaching your
    potential.

    Hope that helps,

    Greg
     
  9. RonSonic

    RonSonic Guest

    On 21 Apr 2006 02:14:13 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >Mike Reed wrote:
    >> Ron Ruff wrote:
    >> > [email protected] wrote:
    >> >
    >> > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    >> > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    >> > > happened?
    >> >
    >> > Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    >> > factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...

    >>
    >> This is certainly true. Later in the season, you'll notice that when
    >> you crack, it hurts a lot worse than it does now because your
    >> cardio-pulmonary systems were at their limits at the same time as your
    >> legs. The thing is that you'll be going a lot faster when it happens.

    >
    >That's just it. I am used to getting dropped being a very unpleasant
    >experience. It normally (for me at least) is a semi-conscious decision
    >to throw in the towel from not being able to suffer any more. This time
    >I was in no real discomfort, I just couldn't go any faster. I felt like
    >an observer.
    >
    >I guess the low frequency and high loading that characterizes skiing is
    >more different than the high frequency, low loading of cycling than I
    >had anticipated.
    >
    >> Also, don't forget that your VO2Max will determine at what heart rate
    >> you can sustain yourself. As you increase VO2M, your aerobic threshold
    >> goes up, and you can pump higher heart rates sustainably.

    >
    >That brings up a point I have been pondering. I'll start a new thread
    >later to explore that, rather than get into it here.
    >
    >> All these variables will come into sync as the season progresses. For
    >> now, I'd start working on sprint, and interval workouts, once a week
    >> each. Try 1 minute intervals with 4 recovery minutes between, but cover
    >> as much real estate as you possibly can in that minute. For sprints,
    >> try to explode forward for 20-25 seconds. Grow fangs and growl, rip
    >> your cleats off your shoes, and snap your chain from the power of your
    >> legs (well, at least it should feel that way), and do it all at 100-180
    >> rpm.
    >>
    >> This will catch your legs up to your heart and lungs...

    >
    >Sounds like fun! I have a small loop near my house I do on my MTB that
    >I used for a similar exercise last year. The problem is that this year
    >I am so much stronger that going fast enough to get the workout I need
    >is dangerous on this loop. Gotta find a new loop!
    >
    >So the idea is to try sprint/intervals at high rpm, high power? Just
    >going all-out?


    I like "drag race" sprints for building strength. Start at a near standstill in
    something like a 42-17 or 19 or what suits you, stay in or just hovering over
    the saddle and accellerate like all of hell was chasing you until you are
    completely spun out hold the spin for a long count of ten. Rest, rinse, repeat.
    After doing those once or twice a week for a month introduce upshifting.

    Ron
     
  10. smokva

    smokva Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    >This year I weigh 105kg (I like to think it is upper body muscles from
    >LOTS of XC skiing), and I managed to not get dropped, almost. But my
    >pulse never went above 175.
    >
    >Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    >seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    >happened?


    You have good cardio from nordic skiing so your legs are limiting factor now.
    In few weeks it should be more balanced. I have about 1800 km this year and I
    still feel my legs are not strong enough...or is it because I gained 10kg after
    the injury last year :))
    And you are not supposed to do intervals so soon...firs you have do do the
    anatomic adaption, then do a good base. At the and of base training I start
    climbing, but still not the intervals. First intervals I do in the period of
    building, and I don't do them more than once per week at the beggining.
    So...I would recommend you first to make at least 500 km of very low intesive
    rides, than do 1000-1500 km more...still not at the full power. You can add
    sprint here and there, but don't go to your limits. After that you are OK for
    some hard training.
     
  11. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    > So the idea is to try sprint/intervals at high rpm, high power? Just
    > going all-out?


    Well, that will be easier on your connective tissue until you get some
    more balance between your legs and heart/lungs. Once you're balanced,
    it's a good idea to vary these efforts. Do some 53/17 sprints from a
    dead stop without shifting -- very tough start. Then do some moderate
    stuff, starting at around 90 rpm. Then some starting at 110 or so for
    some pure leg speed work. Just toss it up.

    I don't work with much of a program, I just try to work on stuff that I
    haven't done in a while.

    -Mike
     
  12. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Greg wrote:
    > Another really useful training exercise is to get another rider of
    > equal or slighty better fitness than you. Ride one behind the other at
    > say, 18 mph (arbitrary starting point). The rider at the front holds
    > 18 and the rider behind accelerates around him (not sprint, think
    > "snap" - just a mile or two an hour). The rider at the front has to
    > accelerate a bit to grab the passing rider's wheel, and now they are
    > going 20. Now the "new rider" at the front holds that speed, say 20
    > and after 15 or 20 seconds, the rider in the back does the same thing,
    > he "snaps" around at say 22 and holds it as the rider being passed has
    > to grab his wheel, now putting the pair at 22 mph. The repeats as each
    > pass increases the speed until one or both riders "blow up". The
    > important component is that whichever rider is at the front does NOT
    > slow down and does NOT pull off. The speed is controlled by the rider
    > coming around from the back.


    I like that a lot. Will try on tomorrow morning's ride... (my neighbor
    has no idea what's in store for him --- eeeexcelent Smithers...)

    -Mike
     
  13. Greg wrote:
    > Mike Reed wrote:
    > > Ron Ruff wrote:
    > > > [email protected] wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > > > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > > > > happened?
    > > >
    > > > Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    > > > factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...

    > >
    > > This is certainly true. Later in the season, you'll notice that when
    > > you crack, it hurts a lot worse than it does now because your
    > > cardio-pulmonary systems were at their limits at the same time as your
    > > legs. The thing is that you'll be going a lot faster when it happens.
    > >
    > > Also, don't forget that your VO2Max will determine at what heart rate
    > > you can sustain yourself. As you increase VO2M, your aerobic threshold
    > > goes up, and you can pump higher heart rates sustainably.
    > >
    > > All these variables will come into sync as the season progresses. For
    > > now, I'd start working on sprint, and interval workouts, once a week
    > > each. Try 1 minute intervals with 4 recovery minutes between, but cover
    > > as much real estate as you possibly can in that minute. For sprints,
    > > try to explode forward for 20-25 seconds. Grow fangs and growl, rip
    > > your cleats off your shoes, and snap your chain from the power of your
    > > legs (well, at least it should feel that way), and do it all at 100-180
    > > rpm.
    > >
    > > This will catch your legs up to your heart and lungs...
    > >
    > > -Mike

    >
    > Another really useful training exercise is to get another rider of
    > equal or slighty better fitness than you. Ride one behind the other at
    > say, 18 mph (arbitrary starting point). The rider at the front holds
    > 18 and the rider behind accelerates around him (not sprint, think
    > "snap" - just a mile or two an hour). The rider at the front has to
    > accelerate a bit to grab the passing rider's wheel, and now they are
    > going 20. Now the "new rider" at the front holds that speed, say 20
    > and after 15 or 20 seconds, the rider in the back does the same thing,
    > he "snaps" around at say 22 and holds it as the rider being passed has
    > to grab his wheel, now putting the pair at 22 mph. The repeats as each
    > pass increases the speed until one or both riders "blow up". The
    > important component is that whichever rider is at the front does NOT
    > slow down and does NOT pull off. The speed is controlled by the rider
    > coming around from the back.
    >
    > The point of the exercise is being forced to accelerate at increasing
    > speed. It's not really intervals, and it's not really sprints. It
    > focuses on one of the most important aspects of cycling ability and
    > fitness level (beyond just spinning) and that is to be able to
    > accelerate. A side benefit is that it will help you to "grab that
    > wheel" as it comes past you in a training ride or a race situation.
    >
    > Try it once a week. Do three sets with COMPLETE recovery in between
    > efforts. Take another day or two and go do long slow rides (2-3 hours
    > at 60% of your max HR). Take another day and go find some long hills
    > and do intervals or even up hill sprints. Do a tempo day (70-80% of
    > you max HR for 20 to 30 minute stretches). Then MOST important of all
    > REST - this means to either ride a couple of days for an hour or so
    > that are slower than you ever thought it possible to ride, or take the
    > day(s) off the bike and go do something else. The latter helps you
    > mentally as well as physically. Go play tennis, or basketball, or
    > frisbee, or whatever. I personally find that I need one day a week off
    > the bike, and it is usually the second day after my hardest workout,
    > the day after being 15 mile ride at 12 miles an hour in a 39x21. It
    > helps to get the crap out of your legs and has a similar effect to
    > getting a massage (without the feel-good part).
    >
    > Oh, and also very important...you should really get some EASY base
    > miles in before you do ANY of what I just suggested. I'd say at least
    > 400 to 500 miles. This builds all the muscle systems at the cellular
    > level to get them ready for the heavy work. If you do it too early,
    > you get the best results and you'll find that you aren't reaching your
    > potential.
    >
    > Hope that helps,
    >
    > Greg


    That sounds a bit like what we were doing on the ride I got dropped on!
    Except it was a rotation of 10 riders doing an echelon of sorts. And
    since we are not team CSC there were lots of gaps, accelerating, and a
    constantly increasing speed as we all struggled (some more than
    others!) to keep it together. I 'm going to try your exercise with a
    buddy tommorrow. No time to wait for 500 miles before going hard. I'm
    afraid I will lose fitness if I wait too long.

    Joseph
     
  14. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    No time to wait for 500 miles before going hard. I'm
    > afraid I will lose fitness if I wait too long.
    >


    Yeah, I go hard year-round for the last 6 years now. I have peaks and
    valleys, but no other problems.
     
  15. Greg

    Greg Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Greg wrote:
    > > Mike Reed wrote:
    > > > Ron Ruff wrote:
    > > > > [email protected] wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > Why is my pulse lower, but I still get dropped? My breathing never
    > > > > > seemed strained, it was just my legs didn't have any more go left. What
    > > > > > happened?
    > > > >
    > > > > Your muscles are not accustomed to cycling... so they are the limiting
    > > > > factor... *not* your heart (or lungs). Your legs will catch up...
    > > >
    > > > This is certainly true. Later in the season, you'll notice that when
    > > > you crack, it hurts a lot worse than it does now because your
    > > > cardio-pulmonary systems were at their limits at the same time as your
    > > > legs. The thing is that you'll be going a lot faster when it happens.
    > > >
    > > > Also, don't forget that your VO2Max will determine at what heart rate
    > > > you can sustain yourself. As you increase VO2M, your aerobic threshold
    > > > goes up, and you can pump higher heart rates sustainably.
    > > >
    > > > All these variables will come into sync as the season progresses. For
    > > > now, I'd start working on sprint, and interval workouts, once a week
    > > > each. Try 1 minute intervals with 4 recovery minutes between, but cover
    > > > as much real estate as you possibly can in that minute. For sprints,
    > > > try to explode forward for 20-25 seconds. Grow fangs and growl, rip
    > > > your cleats off your shoes, and snap your chain from the power of your
    > > > legs (well, at least it should feel that way), and do it all at 100-180
    > > > rpm.
    > > >
    > > > This will catch your legs up to your heart and lungs...
    > > >
    > > > -Mike

    > >
    > > Another really useful training exercise is to get another rider of
    > > equal or slighty better fitness than you. Ride one behind the other at
    > > say, 18 mph (arbitrary starting point). The rider at the front holds
    > > 18 and the rider behind accelerates around him (not sprint, think
    > > "snap" - just a mile or two an hour). The rider at the front has to
    > > accelerate a bit to grab the passing rider's wheel, and now they are
    > > going 20. Now the "new rider" at the front holds that speed, say 20
    > > and after 15 or 20 seconds, the rider in the back does the same thing,
    > > he "snaps" around at say 22 and holds it as the rider being passed has
    > > to grab his wheel, now putting the pair at 22 mph. The repeats as each
    > > pass increases the speed until one or both riders "blow up". The
    > > important component is that whichever rider is at the front does NOT
    > > slow down and does NOT pull off. The speed is controlled by the rider
    > > coming around from the back.
    > >
    > > The point of the exercise is being forced to accelerate at increasing
    > > speed. It's not really intervals, and it's not really sprints. It
    > > focuses on one of the most important aspects of cycling ability and
    > > fitness level (beyond just spinning) and that is to be able to
    > > accelerate. A side benefit is that it will help you to "grab that
    > > wheel" as it comes past you in a training ride or a race situation.
    > >
    > > Try it once a week. Do three sets with COMPLETE recovery in between
    > > efforts. Take another day or two and go do long slow rides (2-3 hours
    > > at 60% of your max HR). Take another day and go find some long hills
    > > and do intervals or even up hill sprints. Do a tempo day (70-80% of
    > > you max HR for 20 to 30 minute stretches). Then MOST important of all
    > > REST - this means to either ride a couple of days for an hour or so
    > > that are slower than you ever thought it possible to ride, or take the
    > > day(s) off the bike and go do something else. The latter helps you
    > > mentally as well as physically. Go play tennis, or basketball, or
    > > frisbee, or whatever. I personally find that I need one day a week off
    > > the bike, and it is usually the second day after my hardest workout,
    > > the day after being 15 mile ride at 12 miles an hour in a 39x21. It
    > > helps to get the crap out of your legs and has a similar effect to
    > > getting a massage (without the feel-good part).
    > >
    > > Oh, and also very important...you should really get some EASY base
    > > miles in before you do ANY of what I just suggested. I'd say at least
    > > 400 to 500 miles. This builds all the muscle systems at the cellular
    > > level to get them ready for the heavy work. If you do it too early,
    > > you get the best results and you'll find that you aren't reaching your
    > > potential.
    > >
    > > Hope that helps,
    > >
    > > Greg

    >
    > That sounds a bit like what we were doing on the ride I got dropped on!
    > Except it was a rotation of 10 riders doing an echelon of sorts. And
    > since we are not team CSC there were lots of gaps, accelerating, and a
    > constantly increasing speed as we all struggled (some more than
    > others!) to keep it together. I 'm going to try your exercise with a
    > buddy tommorrow. No time to wait for 500 miles before going hard. I'm
    > afraid I will lose fitness if I wait too long.
    >
    > Joseph


    Oh, believe me, I understand that you don't want to wait. Once the
    weather breaks, and everybody else is "going fast", it can be hard not
    to.

    What you must understand though is that anything you do will be limited
    by the capacity of your cells to burn oxygen and dispose of the waste.
    As a direct result of that, your LT will not elevate very much (if at
    all) and you will burn-out quickly on each hard effort, and
    collectively burn-out earlier in the season. No amount of riding hard
    will change this.

    I didn't mean to sound harsh there or anything, but that is just the
    way to body works as a cyclist. I have seen it many times over the
    years in others, and in myself.

    In my humble opinion, if you don't want to spend the time building your
    base BEFORE you put in harder efforts, you can build your base SOME
    base while you are doing harder efforts, but you just need to be
    extremely cautious an listen to your body. I would suggest only one
    really hard day a week for the next 300 miles or so, and all your other
    days should be slow, easy miles, preferrably over 2 hours and one
    should be 3-4 if possible. After the first 300, add a second hard day.
    Refer to my previous post (earlier in this thread) on a "schedule" of
    different types of workouts.

    Just remember, if you are not building the capacity, you are never
    going ride to your fullest capabilities. You will always be limited to
    what your cells can process.

    Good luck!
    Greg Wood
     
  16. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Greg wrote:
    > In my humble opinion, if you don't want to spend the time building your
    > base BEFORE you put in harder efforts, you can build your base SOME
    > base while you are doing harder efforts, but you just need to be
    > extremely cautious an listen to your body. I would suggest only one
    > really hard day a week for the next 300 miles or so, and all your other
    > days should be slow, easy miles, preferrably over 2 hours and one
    > should be 3-4 if possible. After the first 300, add a second hard day.
    > Refer to my previous post (earlier in this thread) on a "schedule" of
    > different types of workouts.


    I think you have to watch out with connective tissue, but in 15 years
    of road riding, I've never actually experienced any benefit to base
    miles.

    I've recently mentored four new cyclists here at work on lunchtime
    rides, once a week. Each of them only does one or maybe two other short
    rides each week. I started them all off with high intensity right off
    the bat -- on the first ride. All we ever do are intervals, hill
    repeats (steep -- up to 20% grade), or sprints. These rides are only 45
    minutes.

    We've been doing this for 3-4 months. They have all experienced rapidly
    improving strength and overall fitness. They can all now draft off me
    when I'm riding "tempo." When they go out with other riders who mostly
    just do road rides on moderate terrain, the intensity training allows
    them to just ride away.

    No base miles. No easy miles. No long rides. Just intensity.

    I'm sure they would run into trouble if they had to ride more than 50
    miles, but I think that could be tempered with just one long ride/week
    -- probably just 2 hours. Besides, they don't ride for 50 miles, and
    they're having more fun just going really hard for shorter rides rather
    than burning out themselves and their families on long rides all the
    time.

    -Mike
     
  17. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de
    news:[email protected],
    Mike Reed <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > Greg wrote:
    >> In my humble opinion, if you don't want to spend the time building
    >> your base BEFORE you put in harder efforts, you can build your base
    >> SOME base while you are doing harder efforts, but you just need to be
    >> extremely cautious an listen to your body. I would suggest only one
    >> really hard day a week for the next 300 miles or so, and all your
    >> other days should be slow, easy miles, preferrably over 2 hours and
    >> one should be 3-4 if possible. After the first 300, add a second
    >> hard day. Refer to my previous post (earlier in this thread) on a
    >> "schedule" of different types of workouts.

    >
    > I think you have to watch out with connective tissue, but in 15 years
    > of road riding, I've never actually experienced any benefit to base
    > miles.


    Intersting cultural differences, here. Perhaps you don't ride in winter ?
    Or for long periods of time ?

    > I've recently mentored four new cyclists here at work on lunchtime
    > rides, once a week. Each of them only does one or maybe two other
    > short rides each week. I started them all off with high intensity
    > right off the bat -- on the first ride. All we ever do are intervals,
    > hill repeats (steep -- up to 20% grade), or sprints. These rides are
    > only 45 minutes.


    Well, 45 minutes is a nice warm-up. And it does get the heart running
    faster, as you seem to suggest. I suspect this all depends on one's goals.
    For the North American criterium style racing, it may be perfect. In
    France, we tend to have climbs that last as long as your sessions.
    Depending on how far you travel before a climb, it may do well to have some
    reserve.

    > We've been doing this for 3-4 months. They have all experienced
    > rapidly improving strength and overall fitness. They can all now
    > draft off me when I'm riding "tempo." When they go out with other
    > riders who mostly just do road rides on moderate terrain, the
    > intensity training allows them to just ride away.


    Our cycling cultures are certainly different in this. When we go out for a
    club ride, we don't ever leave anyone behind. The approximate levels of
    ability ride together, and if someone loses pace, everyone works to help
    keep the group together.

    > No base miles. No easy miles. No long rides. Just intensity.
    >
    > I'm sure they would run into trouble if they had to ride more than 50
    > miles, but I think that could be tempered with just one long ride/week
    > -- probably just 2 hours. Besides, they don't ride for 50 miles, and
    > they're having more fun just going really hard for shorter rides
    > rather than burning out themselves and their families on long rides
    > all the time.
    >

    I don't see a 2 hour ride as long. Although I do training rides of 90-150
    minutes where I try to suffer a lot. It's not to say that loafing for 3
    hours is a good substitute for an energetic training session, but riding
    fast and enjoying it is part of the attraction of the sport. The best time,
    here, to do long, leisurely rides is autumn, after racing is over (if you
    are not doing cross), and you can take it down a level and realize it's fun
    on two wheels.
    --
    Sandy
    --
    C'est le contraire du vélo, la bicyclette.
    Une silhouette profilée mauve fluo dévale
    à soixante-dix à l'heure : c'est du vélo.
    Deux lycéennes côte à côte traversent
    un pont à Bruges : c'est de la bicyclette.
    -Delerm, P.
     
  18. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed Guest

    Sandy wrote:
    > Dans le message de
    > news:[email protected],
    > Mike Reed <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > > Greg wrote:
    > >> In my humble opinion, if you don't want to spend the time building
    > >> your base BEFORE you put in harder efforts, you can build your base
    > >> SOME base while you are doing harder efforts, but you just need to be
    > >> extremely cautious an listen to your body. I would suggest only one
    > >> really hard day a week for the next 300 miles or so, and all your
    > >> other days should be slow, easy miles, preferrably over 2 hours and
    > >> one should be 3-4 if possible. After the first 300, add a second
    > >> hard day. Refer to my previous post (earlier in this thread) on a
    > >> "schedule" of different types of workouts.

    > >
    > > I think you have to watch out with connective tissue, but in 15 years
    > > of road riding, I've never actually experienced any benefit to base
    > > miles.

    >
    > Intersting cultural differences, here. Perhaps you don't ride in winter ?
    > Or for long periods of time ?


    While I'm sure there are plenty of interesting cultural differences,
    this is more of a situational difference. I don't race any more. When I
    did race, I tried base miles in the spring some seasons, and went
    straight into intensity in other seasons. There was no advantage to
    base miles. It just kept me from being fast early on.

    These days I no longer race, and my family and work life dictate that I
    get to ride about five to seven hours a week. I do this year-round, and
    with only that much time available, I make every minute count. I ride
    HARD and suffer for it. Minimal warmup, then start some drills
    (sprints, intervals, hills, TT).

    > > I've recently mentored four new cyclists here at work on lunchtime
    > > rides, once a week. Each of them only does one or maybe two other
    > > short rides each week. I started them all off with high intensity
    > > right off the bat -- on the first ride. All we ever do are intervals,
    > > hill repeats (steep -- up to 20% grade), or sprints. These rides are
    > > only 45 minutes.

    >
    > Well, 45 minutes is a nice warm-up. And it does get the heart running
    > faster, as you seem to suggest. I suspect this all depends on one's goals.
    > For the North American criterium style racing, it may be perfect. In
    > France, we tend to have climbs that last as long as your sessions.
    > Depending on how far you travel before a climb, it may do well to have some
    > reserve.


    When I used to race, I had the luxury of long warmups. Now that I don't
    have that luxury, I find that it's really not necessary. If I take a
    long warmup before a hill climb, I have no performance advantage on the
    climb over a 10 minute warmup. It just doesn't make any difference. I
    know my body well, and can warm up in 10 minutes -- and I'm 35 years
    old.

    When I was racing as a Cat 3 in Colorado, I would train 300-400
    miles/week, often on climbs up to 2.5 hours long (Mt. Evans, CO, with a
    backpack full of, umm "high-alpine descending clothes").

    For now, I could probably compete at a Cat 3 level in a crit on only 7
    hours of training/week. In a road race, I'd be off the back for sure.

    > > We've been doing this for 3-4 months. They have all experienced
    > > rapidly improving strength and overall fitness. They can all now
    > > draft off me when I'm riding "tempo." When they go out with other
    > > riders who mostly just do road rides on moderate terrain, the
    > > intensity training allows them to just ride away.

    >
    > Our cycling cultures are certainly different in this. When we go out fora
    > club ride, we don't ever leave anyone behind. The approximate levels of
    > ability ride together, and if someone loses pace, everyone works to help
    > keep the group together.


    When they ride away, it's just for a climb or known sprint landmark,
    with a regroup at the immediately following. The climbs here are steep
    (up to 20%) and short, so they only take 3 to 6 minutes. Nobody's going
    to cry about that.

    > > No base miles. No easy miles. No long rides. Just intensity.
    > >
    > > I'm sure they would run into trouble if they had to ride more than 50
    > > miles, but I think that could be tempered with just one long ride/week
    > > -- probably just 2 hours. Besides, they don't ride for 50 miles, and
    > > they're having more fun just going really hard for shorter rides
    > > rather than burning out themselves and their families on long rides
    > > all the time.
    > >

    > I don't see a 2 hour ride as long. Although I do training rides of 90-150
    > minutes where I try to suffer a lot. It's not to say that loafing for 3
    > hours is a good substitute for an energetic training session, but riding
    > fast and enjoying it is part of the attraction of the sport. The best time,
    > here, to do long, leisurely rides is autumn, after racing is over (if you
    > are not doing cross), and you can take it down a level and realize it's fun
    > on two wheels.


    That's great if you have the time to do it. I choose to participate in
    my other hobbies and spend time with my kids. I used to love long
    rides, but I find them boring now (maybe because I live in Texas vs.
    when I used to live in Colorado). Anyway, I don't have any problems
    with long rides. My assertion is that base miles have never helped me,
    and my coworkers have become "club ride fast" without any base miles or
    injury.

    I used to coach a local Cat 2 woman, and I certainly had her riding
    longer than 45 minutes, so I'm not anti-mileage or anything. It just
    depends on your situation and goals.

    -Mike
     
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