Fit video - take 2

[serpico7]

I started a thread a couple of days ago about my bike fit. As someone observed, the bike wasn't level because I was on rollers, which puts the back wheel lower than the front wheel, which makes a big difference in how the saddle looks relative to the bottom bracket. Also, there were a few suggestions about raising the saddle and moving it forward, so I made some slight changes.
Old video: saddle height - 75.5cm; saddle 6cm behind bottom bracket
New video: saddle height - 76.0cm; saddle 5cm behind BB
Height: 170cm. Cycling inseam: 84.5cm.

In the new video, I tried to show how my leg looks at full extension with knees locked out. Unfortunately, the video cuts out part of my foot, but it seems my heel is a tiny bit below my toes, but my hip also drops a little (I find it very difficult to lock out my knee without dropping my hip to that side).

Yes, I know my pelvic tilt needs some work; it's a work in progress (and hey, it already looks better than in the first video). And yeah, the bars will probably be lowered as my flexibility improves. Oh, the stem in the new vid is 120mm; old vid shows a 100mm stem.

OK, please let me know what you think. Should I raise/lower the saddle? Move the seat forward/backward? I'm focused on saddle position rather than upper body position because I'm trying to resolve some knee pain.

 

[Roadie_scum]

I started a thread a couple of days ago about my bike fit. As someone observed, the bike wasn't level because I was on rollers, which puts the back wheel lower than the front wheel, which makes a big difference in how the saddle looks relative to the bottom bracket. Also, there were a few suggestions about raising the saddle and moving it forward, so I made some slight changes.
Old video: saddle height - 75.5cm; saddle 6cm behind bottom bracket
New video: saddle height - 76.0cm; saddle 5cm behind BB
Height: 170cm. Cycling inseam: 84.5cm.

In the new video, I tried to show how my leg looks at full extension with knees locked out. Unfortunately, the video cuts out part of my foot, but it seems my heel is a tiny bit below my toes, but my hip also drops a little (I find it very difficult to lock out my knee without dropping my hip to that side).

Yes, I know my pelvic tilt needs some work; it's a work in progress (and hey, it already looks better than in the first video). And yeah, the bars will probably be lowered as my flexibility improves. Oh, the stem in the new vid is 120mm; old vid shows a 100mm stem.

OK, please let me know what you think. Should I raise/lower the saddle? Move the seat forward/backward? I'm focused on saddle position rather than upper body position because I'm trying to resolve some knee pain.

Very imprecise way of assessing your positioning but it looks like back and down is the way to go. Once you are low enough to not be reaching you can see if you still drop your hip, then if that is still an issue maybe add some stack to the cleat there.

 

[curby]

position looks pretty good, I wouldnt predict knee trouble based on this new saddle height or fore/aft saddle position

are your cleats positioned as far back as possible on your shoes? looks like you have a lot of foot ahead of the pedal, and toe overlap with the front wheel... not sure how this plays out with your knee trouble but I would start with a more neutral position for the cleats if I was having knee trouble... I know many ppl push their cleats way back these days for power

after exploring the cleat position i would take a close look at how your legs align from behind, are they directly over the pedals all the way up or do they bow out or cant in...

many ppl dont beleive in pedal float but do you have fixed or floating pedals?

if I get knee trouble I ride old toe clips & straps without cleats and lower my seat until it goes away... this allows my alignment to go wherever it wants to
perhaps floating pedals would have a similar effect

ok, enough from me...


all's'miles


curby

 

[serpico7]

Very imprecise way of assessing your positioning but it looks like back and down is the way to go. Once you are low enough to not be reaching you can see if you still drop your hip, then if that is still an issue maybe add some stack to the cleat there.

Thanks for the feedback. The reason I was doing the full extension with knees locked out was that I've heard that one method of determining height was to lock your leg out at the bottom of the stroke with your feet clipped in - if your heel is level with your toes, then that's the right height. In the video, my heel goes lower than my toes, so that would argue that maybe I could raise the saddle a tiny bit, but I was noting that I found it difficult to lock out my leg without dropping my hip a tiny bit, so I figure those things cancel - i.e., if I could prevent my hip from dropping when doing this test, then my heel would be level with my toes. Makes sense?

I'm surprised that you suggested I move the saddle further back. I feel like I'm still back of KOPS. Does it not look that way to you?

 

[serpico7]

are your cleats positioned as far back as possible on your shoes? looks like you have a lot of foot ahead of the pedal, and toe overlap with the front wheel... not sure how this plays out with your knee trouble but I would start with a more neutral position for the cleats if I was having knee trouble

after exploring the cleat position i would take a close look at how your legs align from behind, are they directly over the pedals all the way up or do they bow out or cant in...

many ppl dont beleive in pedal float but do you have fixed or floating pedals?

if I get knee trouble I ride old toe clips & straps without cleats and lower my seat until it goes away... this allows my alignment to go wherever it wants to
perhaps floating pedals would have a similar effect

My cleats aren't as far back as they could go, but they're close. But nothing like the arch-cleat position that Steve Hogg suggests. I think I read somewhere that cleats further back are supposed to help with anterior/medial knee pain, which is what I have (quadriceps tendonitis). The cleats have 4.5* of float (grey Keos).

Both my knees cant in at the top of the pedal stroke. I shimmed the right knee using Lemond wedges (in varus position), which seemed to help. Didn't shim the left knee because it wasn't hurting.

 

[curby]

sounds to me like you are dialing it in but still having knee trouble...

i know my old campy record cranks, circa 1985, are very narrow (low q-factor) and sometimes give me knee trouble. whereas my mtn/cross bike's triple with its wide stance never does. when Bridgestone used q-factor in its marketing in the 90's I was always skeptical about their claim that one width (lower q-factor bikes) was right for everyone, but in cycling circles its seems to never be brought to bear on crank or pedal design, 'one size fits all' with respect to how far apart your feet should be seems the standard operating procedure.

 

[Roadie_scum]

sounds to me like you are dialing it in but still having knee trouble...

i know my old campy record cranks, circa 1985, are very narrow (low q-factor) and sometimes give me knee trouble. whereas my mtn/cross bike's triple with its wide stance never does. when Bridgestone used q-factor in its marketing in the 90's I was always skeptical about their claim that one width (lower q-factor bikes) was right for everyone, but in cycling circles its seems to never be brought to bear on crank or pedal design, 'one size fits all' with respect to how far apart your feet should be seems the standard operating procedure.

I take note of q-factor! In fact, I just went back to Campy Chorus square taper cranks for this very reason (had DA external BB before). Thinking about getting some speedplay zero ti axle pedals for the same reason. It depends if you get a fitter who knows stuff, or one who punches stuff into a calculator and can't think critically for themselves.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Thanks for the feedback. The reason I was doing the full extension with knees locked out was that I've heard that one method of determining height was to lock your leg out at the bottom of the stroke with your feet clipped in - if your heel is level with your toes, then that's the right height. In the video, my heel goes lower than my toes, so that would argue that maybe I could raise the saddle a tiny bit, but I was noting that I found it difficult to lock out my leg without dropping my hip a tiny bit, so I figure those things cancel - i.e., if I could prevent my hip from dropping when doing this test, then my heel would be level with my toes. Makes sense?

I'm surprised that you suggested I move the saddle further back. I feel like I'm still back of KOPS. Does it not look that way to you?

Well this is the problem with the way you are currently doing the fit. It looked to me like you were in front of or right on top of the pedal spindle, whereas I think a reasonable range for road cycling is on top of pedal spindle up to 3-4cm behind it. But my visual appraisal might be totally wrong. If I want to work out KOPS, I set the bike level, get the rider to pedal normally sitting where they are comfortable, then stop and set the crank level with a spirit level. Then use a plumb bob from the front of the kneecap and measure. If you want to get concrete feedback, you are going to need more concrete and repeatable measurements and you are going to need to have your bike anchored stationary (eg on a trainer), not rocking around. For example, when you stop pedalling to demonstrate KOPS in that video, your cranks are far from horizontal. And that is even assuming that the rollers set your bike level in the first place.

 

[Roadie_scum]

My cleats aren't as far back as they could go, but they're close. But nothing like the arch-cleat position that Steve Hogg suggests. I think I read somewhere that cleats further back are supposed to help with anterior/medial knee pain, which is what I have (quadriceps tendonitis). The cleats have 4.5* of float (grey Keos).

Both my knees cant in at the top of the pedal stroke. I shimmed the right knee using Lemond wedges (in varus position), which seemed to help. Didn't shim the left knee because it wasn't hurting.

Be careful with Le Wedges. They are very good in certain applications (I use them to shim a small functional leg length discrepancy), but they are not ideal for correcting varus/valgus angle. This is because they tilt the rear and mid foot as well as the forefoot. You need a properly designed orthotic or inner sole, or at the least a forefoot wedge for inside the shoes like Specialized make.

 

[serpico7]

Well this is the problem with the way you are currently doing the fit. It looked to me like you were in front of or right on top of the pedal spindle, whereas I think a reasonable range for road cycling is on top of pedal spindle up to 3-4cm behind it. But my visual appraisal might be totally wrong. If I want to work out KOPS, I set the bike level, get the rider to pedal normally sitting where they are comfortable, then stop and set the crank level with a spirit level. Then use a plumb bob from the front of the kneecap and measure. If you want to get concrete feedback, you are going to need more concrete and repeatable measurements and you are going to need to have your bike anchored stationary (eg on a trainer), not rocking around. For example, when you stop pedalling to demonstrate KOPS in that video, your cranks are far from horizontal. And that is even assuming that the rollers set your bike level in the first place.

Yeah, I think it's hard to tell on the video, but I'm definitely back of KOPS - I had a friend measure it. But as you note, measuring precise deviation from KOPS is difficult. Even the measure you suggest is subject to error - the amount of toe-down a rider uses has a HUGE impact on KOPS deviation. A static view of the foot may or may not represent the toe-down the rider uses when pedaling at hard effort.

Yeah, rollers set the bike level after I placed some shims under the back of the rollers such that the wheels are level. In the first video, this wasn't the case, and probably added to the perception in the earlier thread that I was miles back of the bottom bracket.

Since I'm getting some knee pain at 5cm of saddle setback (and did so at 6cm), I figured I'd try 4cm for a warmup. Felt ok, so I did a 1x20 interval. Hmmm, even that felt ok, so I did another 1x20. Getting off the bike and out of the shoes, I expected to feel the stiffness in the knees that I usually have after hard efforts, but surprisingly, they didn't feel stiff. I'll see how they feel tomorrow. From the looks of it, I think I'm still back of KOPS, but it's very close now - I'll have to enlist a friend to help measure.

 

[serpico7]

Be careful with Le Wedges. They are very good in certain applications (I use them to shim a small functional leg length discrepancy), but they are not ideal for correcting varus/valgus angle. This is because they tilt the rear and mid foot as well as the forefoot. You need a properly designed orthotic or inner sole, or at the least a forefoot wedge for inside the shoes like Specialized make.

I have custom orthotics in my cycling shoes. These are heel-posted orthotics (for walking, running). Maybe I need a cycling orthotic instead? Not sure who I would trust to make these though. A podiatrist probably won't know enough about cycling, and it seems a lot of fitters just refer you to a podiatrist when it comes to dealing with varus/valgus foot issues.