Fitness/Sickness Q's (long)



In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

"Cat" wrote:
> > And I always thought that you should do longer interval training earlier in the season and
> > progress to shorter anaerobic efforts closer to racing season (I usually start these in April).
> > Am I wrong in this? Don't forget, I ride all year, so to do long, easy rides
> > (ie: the weird "base training" thing) seems counterproductive to me. It's not as if I ever
> > *stop* riding, I just go a little easier in November/December. I typically range between
> > 8000-10000 miles per year. I did do some days where the intervals were shorter, but I
> > don't see the point of doing a lot of base miles (junk miles?) when I never stopped riding
> > all year.
>
> It is a common misconception that somehow the body can't handle short intervals. I fell for this
> one for numerous years and its bullsh#t. I actually find some of the stuff I read online humorous
> because its so far fetched. In fact, I would argue the other way around, but that's just because I
> have my own views on training. I would say that you should always focus on short then long and
> move away from revolving your training around threshold (another misconception). There is no magic
> intensity, and actually, threshold training is more strenuous than 1 minute intervals.

Just to add to this, what Cat, PedalChick and countless others don't understand is the true purposes
of "base miles", long, slower rides, etc.. Among a few other things, this type of training increases
the density of your capillaries and their function-especially the ones in your slow twitch fibers.
The amount of this type of training that you _need_ determines how much of this type of
development/training you should do. If you've done many years of this type of training in the past,
and/or you already include a fair amount of it during your normal training sessions you may not need
to do more than a few long sessions a month at any time of the year.

It may well be that you should focus much more of your pre-season effort instead on "tempo"
training; 10-15 bpm below your LT HR during intervals of 10-40 minutes long.

A lab LT test can reveal what areas you should focus on in your training based on your body's
ability to "eat" or convert lactate at different exertion levels.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

> warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<040320040856150323%[email protected]>...
> > In article <[email protected]>, chris <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I needed fitness badly, so I went back to the basics.
> > >
> > > 10-12 hrs/week (most on the trainer - 2 hrs at a time usually), with a mix of high intensity
> > > short (1 min or less) intervals, easy riding, STR work on the bike, tempo work and a touch of
> > > threshold after 3 weeks.
> >
> > This sounds strangely familiar. :)
>
> It should, I don't flip flop on my view point. It often seems like many of my clients do similar
> programs early in the year and its largely because they're all in the hole on the anaerobic
> capacity side of things. Is it any wonder why som many of us struggle with sprinting? More on this
> in another thread.

"Familiar" because it's very similar to the training I do, except I'm outside. No habla trainer.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote:

> "Ewoud Dronkert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:56:53 +1100, Jeff Jones wrote:
> > > today's "recon" over the Kwaremont, Paterberg, Koppenberg, etc. was
> somewhat
> > > unscheduled and it hurt, but in a nice and normal way. Luckily it was
> cold,
> > > wet and muddy or I'm sure I would have dehydrated in this harsh Belgian
> sun.
> > > Scratch: 1 headset,
> >
> > What, from the cobble-bouncing, or sweating in those tropical temperatures?
> >
> Cobble bouncing. Years of accumulated abuse to this poor headset. Adjusting it to "just right"
> means that it comes loose after 2km. Overtightening it affects the steering too badly. It's way
> past its use-by date.

Sounds like you had an 'index headset'. As for the rest of the parts, you probably go into the
warehouse of spare bits the manufacturers ply you with, since you are a big wig at
Cyclingnews, right?

--
tanx, Howard

"Food plus heat equals cooking"
Alton Brown

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
"Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,

> Sounds like you had an 'index headset'. As for the rest of the parts, you probably go into the
> warehouse of spare bits the manufacturers ply you with, since you are a big wig at Cyclingnews,
> right?
>
Yeah but I then have to write a product review :) I've decided to finish off the ones I've got at
the moment before grabbing any more schwag. And I don't think I'd be able to write a very good
headset review anyway. OTOH, I can write a review of the chain/cluster, as it has almost died and
has therefore passed through the required testing period.

My headset indexes really well now, but with a simple adjustment it also gives me an extra 5 degrees
of float for that cushy steering feel. Great for wet cobbles.

Jeff
 
Originally posted by Warren
In article <[email protected]>
Just to add to this, what Cat, PedalChick and countless others don't understand is the true purposes
of "base miles", long, slower rides, etc.. Among a few other things, this type of training increases
the density of your capillaries and their function-especially the ones in your slow twitch fibers.
The amount of this type of training that you _need_ determines how much of this type of
development/training you should do. If you've done many years of this type of training in the past,
and/or you already include a fair amount of it during your normal training sessions you may not need
to do more than a few long sessions a month at any time of the year.

It may well be that you should focus much more of your pre-season effort instead on "tempo"
training; 10-15 bpm below your LT HR during intervals of 10-40 minutes long.

A lab LT test can reveal what areas you should focus on in your training based on your body's
ability to "eat" or convert lactate at different exertion levels.

-WG

I don't believe I disagreed with the notion of base miles, in fact, I think I espoused doing them.
Where can you get said lab tests done, and what exactly would I ask for? If they have to draw blood to do it, I think I'd rather not know...
 
Yeah, but don't you live in CA where you don't need a trainer? At least you're not one of those guys
who who rides the trainer when its 60 and raining...

CH warren <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<040320041754575694%[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, chris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<040320040856150323%[email protected]>...
> > > In article <[email protected]>, chris <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I needed fitness badly, so I went back to the basics.
> > > >
> > > > 10-12 hrs/week (most on the trainer - 2 hrs at a time usually), with a mix of high intensity
> > > > short (1 min or less) intervals, easy riding, STR work on the bike, tempo work and a touch
> > > > of threshold after 3 weeks.
> > >
> > > This sounds strangely familiar. :)
> >
> > It should, I don't flip flop on my view point. It often seems like many of my clients do similar
> > programs early in the year and its largely because they're all in the hole on the anaerobic
> > capacity side of things. Is it any wonder why som many of us struggle with sprinting? More on
> > this in another thread.
>
> "Familiar" because it's very similar to the training I do, except I'm outside. No habla trainer.
>
> -WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Yeah, but don't you live in CA where you don't need a trainer? At least you're not one of those
> guys who who rides the trainer when its 60 and raining...

Yes, weather is not a factor for me. I'd rather ride in 50-60 degrees and rain than inside.

Speaking of trainers... The local women's teams warm up together with their trainers all in a circle-
as many as 30 of them in a group, no matter what the weather. Makes it easier to chat I guess.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, pedalchick
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Warren wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]> Just to add to this, what Cat,
> > PedalChick and countless others don't understand is the true purposes of "base miles", long,
> > slower rides, etc.. Among a few other things, this type of training increases the density of
> > your capillaries and their function-especially the ones in your slow twitch fibers. The amount
> > of this type of training that you _need_ determines how much of this type of
> > development/training you should do. If you've done many years of this type of training in the
> > past, and/or you already include a fair amount of it during your normal training sessions you
> > may not need to do more than a few long sessions a month at any time of the year. It may well
> > be that you should focus much more of your pre-season effort instead on "tempo" training; 10-
> > 15 bpm below your LT HR during intervals of 10-40 minutes long. A lab LT test can reveal what
> > areas you should focus on in your training based on your body's ability to "eat" or convert
> > lactate at different exertion levels. -WG
> I don't believe I disagreed with the notion of base miles, in fact, Ithink I espoused doing them.

What I said was that some people don't really need much "base miles" training. It could be mostly
wasted time and energy.

> Where can you get said lab tests done, andwhat exactly would I ask for? If they have to draw blood
> to do it, Ithink I'd rather not know...

Ask at your local university or a good coach. Probably ask for a "lactate threshold test" and they
should graph your lactate/power/HR throughout the test. Blood drops are drawn every few minutes from
a site in your earlobe that won't even feel.

-WG
 
Then I won't tell you...I do, however, offer a variety of services, many customizable (I do what you
want), at affordable prices. While I do travel quite a bit and should have another test site set up
in San Luis Obispo, CA soon, I always prefer to have people come down to Cape Cod for testing.

In the Sacramento area, UC Davis has a great program going. You'd be hard pressed to fnd anyone
better than Max to consult with.

CH

If they have to draw blood to do it, I
> think I'd rather not know...
>
>
>
> --
 
"chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> It is a common misconception that somehow the body can't handle short intervals. I fell for this
> one for numerous years and its bullsh#t. I actually find some of the stuff I read online humorous
> because its so far fetched. In fact, I would argue the other way around, but that's just because I
> have my own views on training. I would say that you should always focus on short then long and
> move away from revolving your training around threshold (another misconcetion). There is no magic
> intensity, and actually, threshold training is more strenuous than 1 minute intervals.

Iconoclast.

Andy Coggan
 
Originally posted by Andy Coggan
"chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> It is a common misconception that somehow the body can't handle short intervals. I fell for this
> one for numerous years and its bullsh#t. I actually find some of the stuff I read online humorous
> because its so far fetched. In fact, I would argue the other way around, but that's just because I
> have my own views on training. I would say that you should always focus on short then long and
> move away from revolving your training around threshold (another misconcetion). There is no magic
> intensity, and actually, threshold training is more strenuous than 1 minute intervals.

Iconoclast.

Andy Coggan

Well that's the pot calling the kettle black if I've ever seen it!

Dammit, Andy. I've been waiting for you to chime in on this debate and this is all you give me? sheesh. After all the times I've done those 2x20 minute intervals... which, I agree Chris, are far more strenuous than 1 minute intervals, although I bet if I did 40x1 minute intervals I would find them far more strenuous than the 2x20 minute LT intervals.

I think you're talking apples and oranges here - you can't neglect either type of effort if you really want to improve, right?
 
In article <[email protected]>, pedalchick
<[email protected]> wrote:
> After all the times I've done those2x20 minute intervals... which, I agree Chris, are far more
> strenuousthan 1 minute intervals, although I bet if I did 40x1 minute intervals Iwould find them
> far more strenuous than the 2x20 minute LT intervals.I think you're talking apples and oranges
> here - you can't neglecteither type of effort if you really want to improve, right?

Depends what you want to improve, how much of your potential has already been reached in a certain
area, and what you've already done for preparation. It doesn't need to be a matter of choosing one
type of training over another. You could address 4-5 (or more) different aspects of your fitness
within 7-14 day periods.

The hardest training I do is 20 second intervals-much harder than 20 minutes near LT and they have
completely different objectives that someone else may not even need to worry about. 20 second sprint
uphill at 90-100% effort. Rest 2 minutes 40 seconds and repeat for a total of 6-10 reps. Or 30
seconds on and 30 seconds rest-about as hard as you can for 10 minutes. Yet another objective being
addressed. In January. Before the first 4 hour ride of the season.

-WG
 
"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:050320041627475384%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> pedalchick <[email protected]> wrote:
> > After all the times I've done those2x20 minute
> > intervals... which, I agree Chris, are far more
> > strenuousthan 1 minute intervals,
although
> > I bet if I did 40x1 minute intervals Iwould find them
> > far more strenuous
than
> > the 2x20 minute LT intervals.I think you're talking
> > apples and oranges
here -
> > you can't neglecteither type of effort if you really
> > want to improve,
right?
>
> Depends what you want to improve, how much of your
> potential has already been reached in a certain area, and
> what you've already done for preparation. It doesn't need
> to be a matter of choosing one type of training over
> another. You could address 4-5 (or more) different aspects
> of your fitness within 7-14 day periods.
>
> The hardest training I do is 20 second intervals-much
> harder than 20 minutes near LT and they have completely
> different objectives that someone else may not even need
> to worry about. 20 second sprint uphill at 90-100%
> effort. Rest 2 minutes 40 seconds and repeat for a total
> of 6-10 reps. Or 30 seconds on and 30 seconds rest-about
> as hard as you can for 10 minutes. Yet another objective
> being addressed. In January. Before the first 4 hour ride
> of the season.
>
> -WG

I think maybe Warren misconstrued some of the training that
I do. While I do a LOT of LT work, I also do some sprint
work, strength work, and shorter interval work. I couldn't
do all LT work all the time, it's too hard. For interval
work, I like to use the 90 minute Spinerval DVD that mixes
up lengths of intervals. My hardest workout, however, only
takes ab out 35 minutes and I don't start doing it until
late March/early April. It's a warmup followed by 2 x2
intervals up to my Max HR (I can only usually do 4 in the
early going and work my way up to 6-8). It's unbelievably
hard and makes me feel like I want to puke.

However, I thought Warren's comments about shorter intervals
were regarding LT intervals, not max hr intervals...was I
wrong? While I start my early season training with shorter
LT interval, by March I am able to do 60 min @ LT on a good
day, and my LT is much higher than when I start in January.
Of course, I don't do this same workout every day...I
couldn't do it. The other days I do hills, strength work,
speed work, tempo work, etc.

WHen you do your 20 second sprint uphill, do you get to your
max hr by the end of the 20 seconds?

Thanks Warren, this is what I envision this NG to be all
about. It's a shame it denigrates into a bunch of "dumbass"
posts. I may want to try my hand at racing a bit this year
and I need all the help I can get ;>

Cat
 
"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:050320041627475384%[email protected]...

> 6-10 reps. Or 30 seconds on and 30 seconds rest-about as
> hard as you can for 10 minutes. Yet another objective
> being addressed. In January. Before the first 4 hour ride
> of the season.
>
You can do these for 10 minutes? Ouch. I find after three
lots I've melted into a pool of lactic acid somewhere on the
road. OTOH, 2 x 20 min at 5% under max TT pace (power, not
speed) is hard in a different way, but it doesn't completely
destroy me like 30 sec. sprints do.

Speaking of 4 hour rides, I've now done a few this season
and have tried to maintain a good tempo. This was by design
and also b/c I was sick (see earlier post), but I now feel
comfortable upping the intensity a bit. Still nearly two
months until I can race, so I'm not prepared to flog myself
with short intervals just yet. But I'll now do more riding
just below LT for longer periods of time, with the
occasional foray above it.

I think this is the type of training Bjarne Riis did in
1997, when he lost the Tour ;-) But it worked well for me in
November/December/bit of January in Oz so we'll see if it's
any use for the slightly longer races here.

Jeff
 
I should be clear that I don't think any type of training is
worse (or better) than another. I just think that a lot of
coaches have a "habit" of doing the same thing again and
again. LT training is not special, and can, if overdone,
actually diminish performance. We also cannot equate euro
pro level training to us regular folks. The racing demands
are far different and their level is far higher. My main
point here is that most riders neglect these "Anaerobic"
intervals in lieu of LT or endurance miles and then try to
"catch up" later in the season. Why not do these intervals
all year, but fewer at each session (even 3X week)?

CH

"Don't be afraid to leave the party to go bowling."
 
I think that's the best compliment I've gotten in a long
time! <;~)

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news-
:<[email protected]>...
> "chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > It is a common misconception that somehow the body can't
> > handle short intervals. I fell for this one for numerous
> > years and its bullsh#t. I actually find some of the
> > stuff I read online humorous because its so far fetched.
> > In fact, I would argue the other way around, but that's
> > just because I have my own views on training. I would
> > say that you should always focus on short then long and
> > move away from revolving your training around threshold
> > (another misconcetion). There is no magic intensity, and
> > actually, threshold training is more strenuous than 1
> > minute intervals.
>
> Iconoclast.
>
> Andy Coggan
 
In article <[email protected]>, Cat Dailey
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:050320041627475384%[email protected]...
> > The hardest training I do is 20 second intervals-much
> > harder than 20 minutes near LT and they have completely
> > different objectives that someone else may not even need
> > to worry about. 20 second sprint uphill at 90-100%
> > effort. Rest 2 minutes 40 seconds and repeat for a total
> > of 6-10 reps. Or 30 seconds on and 30 seconds rest-about
> > as hard as you can for 10 minutes. Yet another objective
> > being addressed. In January. Before the first 4 hour
> > ride of the season.

> However, I thought Warren's comments about shorter
> intervals were regarding LT intervals, not max hr
> intervals...was I wrong?

The only time I get to Max HR is at the end of a race. (202
today) HR during hard (short) intervals? Not really worth
worrying about. Measuring power is. HR lags behind too much.
Speed can help if you don't have power measurements.
Perceived effort too.

> WHen you do your 20 second sprint uphill, do you get to
> your max hr by the end of the 20 seconds?

Can't happen that fast. It takes a few minutes of very hard
effort, and some decent amounts of adrenalin to get to max
HR. During the 20 second sprints I look at how hard the
effort is (90-100%), what the power is on each interval, how
quickly I'm recovering (only partially) between efforts, and
hoping I don't throw up before I finish.
>
> Thanks Warren, this is what I envision this NG to be all
> about. It's a shame it denigrates into a bunch of
> "dumbass" posts. I may want to try my hand at racing a bit
> this year and I need all the help I can get ;>

LT for 60 minutes? You're probably ready to go. A women's
cat 4 criterium on an easy course would be a good place to
start. Then join a club with lots of women cat 4's and
you'll have plenty of company. NorCal has some huge clubs
like this. Racing is a lot more fun than training.

-WG
 
In article <[email protected]>, Jeff Jones
<jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:050320041627475384%[email protected]...
>
> > 6-10 reps. Or 30 seconds on and 30 seconds rest-about as
> > hard as you can for 10 minutes. Yet another objective
> > being addressed. In January. Before the first 4 hour
> > ride of the season.
> >
> You can do these for 10 minutes? Ouch.

What I meant was that the total of the ten minutes should be
about as hard as you can go, not each 30 second interval.
IOW, go at a power or effort that barely allows you to
finish the 10 minutes.

> Speaking of 4 hour rides, I've now done a few this season
> and have tried to maintain a good tempo. This was by
> design and also b/c I was sick (see earlier post), but I
> now feel comfortable upping the intensity a bit. Still
> nearly two months until I can race, so I'm not prepared to
> flog myself with short intervals just yet. But I'll now do
> more riding just below LT for longer periods of time, with
> the occasional foray above it.

Chris has mentioned in this thread, and my coach and my own
experience agree that short intervals don't need to be saved
for after you've done lots of longer rides. Consider it this
way, long, slow rides develop your slow twitch capability
and short intervals do more of the development for fast
twitch capability. Why then would you want to not develop
both concurrently (during the same ride or week)?

Do the short stuff on days when you're fresh and you can do
long intervals the next day. Different fibers on different
days allows you to do more total work per week. Just don't
spend too much time over your LT because that may inhibit
your aerobic development.

The caution is that you don't do too much of the higher
intensity stuff until you're close to bigger races because
you may burn out on them after 6-10 weeks and that won't be
good if your goals are still in the future. For example, in
your second month of training you could do intervals that
just go over LT for a minute or two, or intervals that last
10 minutes where you gradually increase the intensity so the
last 1-2 minutes are over your LT. Or 30 second on/off
intervals but only for 5 minutes. Or 8-12 second sprints
that are so short you never get a chance to produce much
lactate. Feeling sluggish during a ride? Do an 8-second
sprint every 5 minutes a few times and see how you respond.

-WG
 
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:050320041627475384%[email protected]...
> > > The hardest training I do is 20 second intervals-much
> > > harder than 20 minutes near LT and they have
> > > completely different objectives that someone else may
> > > not even need to worry about. 20 second sprint uphill
> > > at 90-100% effort. Rest 2 minutes 40 seconds and
> > > repeat for a total of 6-10 reps. Or 30 seconds on and
> > > 30 seconds rest-about as hard as you can for 10
> > > minutes. Yet another objective being addressed. In
> > > January. Before the first 4 hour ride of the season.
>
> > However, I thought Warren's comments about shorter
> > intervals were
regarding
> > LT intervals, not max hr intervals...was I wrong?
>
> The only time I get to Max HR is at the end of a race.
> (202 today) HR during hard (short) intervals? Not really
> worth worrying about. Measuring power is. HR lags behind
> too much. Speed can help if you don't have power
> measurements. Perceived effort too.

I don't have power measurement, so I pretty much train by HR
and perceived exertion. Some days, I end up altering my
planned workout based on what my heart tells me. When I'm
out on the road, I usually end up doing what the pack is
doing (bad, I know). Right now, I am only riding outside on
Wednesday and Saturday mornings. Weds is a 50-60 mile tempo
ride and Sat is a slamfest with all of the racing guys. I
hit the trainer about 3 more times per week, varying what I
do, but according to your plan, I probably train too hard
and spend too much time at LT (although I managed to raise
it a fair bit early this season.)
>
> > WHen you do your 20 second sprint uphill, do you get to
> > your max hr by
the
> > end of the 20 seconds?

> Can't happen that fast. It takes a few minutes of very
> hard effort, and some decent amounts of adrenalin to
> get to max HR. During the 20 second sprints I look at
> how hard the effort is (90-100%), what the power is on
> each interval, how quickly I'm recovering (only
> partially) between efforts, and hoping I don't throw up
> before I finish.

Good. I thought you were shooting for max in 20 seconds. No
way could I get there either. When I do my 2x2 minute
intervals up to max, it takes me between 1:30 and 2:00 to
hit my max.

> >
> > Thanks Warren, this is what I envision this NG to be all
> > about. It's a shame it denigrates into a bunch of
> > "dumbass" posts. I may want to try
my
> > hand at racing a bit this year and I need all the help I
> > can get ;>
>
> LT for 60 minutes? You're probably ready to go. A women's
> cat 4 criterium on an easy course would be a good place to
> start. Then join a club with lots of women cat 4's and
> you'll have plenty of company. NorCal has some huge clubs
> like this. Racing is a lot more fun than training.

Thanks. I am a master also (42), so I will probably do
some women's 4 and if I can reach my target weight/fitness
goals, I may try my hand at a master's men race. I can
race master's mens, almost any age category (m women
(3/4's) can race up to 20 yrs older in m men's races.) I
don't think I'd want to join a club with a lot of w 4's.
Then they want you to train with them also, and I'd rather
train with the guys ;>

Thanks Warren...this is enlightening!

> -WG
 
Here's something I ran across:

Doherty RA, Neary JP, Bhambhani YN, Wenger HA.

Clinical Research Coordinator, Carol Frank Buck Breast Care
Center, University of California at San Francisco, San
Francisco, CA 94115, USA.

This study examined the effects of a 15-day cessation of
training on maximal oxygen consumption and selected
physiological variables (maximal heart rate, cardiac output
[Q], stroke volume [SV], arteriovenous oxygen difference
[(a-v)O2 diff], blood plasma concentration) in 15 women middle-
distance competitive runners (.VO2max: 49.8 +/- 1.1 ml.kg(-1).min(-
1)). Subjects were randomly assigned to a cessation
training (CT, n = 7) or maintenance training (MT, n = 8)
group and tested every 5 days. Q was measured by CO2
rebreathing from which SV and (a-v)O2 diff were calculated.
No significant changes were found at day 5. After 10 days
there was a significant decrement in .VO2max (3.8 ml.kg(-1).min(-
1)) in the CT group, being significantly lower than MT but
no changes thereafter in any physiological variables.
Performance (2,400 m) times did not change for MT but was
significantly slower (21.5 +/- 7.1 seconds) for the CT
group after 15 days, corresponding to the 7.8% decrease in
.VO2max. These findings suggest that in competitive women
middle-distance runners, actual performance decrements
found after 15 days of CT most likely are due to declines
in .VO2max.