Fixed Gear (flip-flop hub) wheel building questions?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by FTM, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. FTM

    FTM New Member

    Joined:
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    Howdy,

    First post here...

    I'm in the process of building up a Fixed gear bike and will be building my own wheels. I've built several set of wheels before but all in the traditional manner 3-cross with drivetrain on the right. Wondering if I need to approach the issue of a flip-flop track hub differently.

    I'll be using:
    Phil Wood 120mm High Flange fixed/fixed Track Hub (back)
    Phil Wood 100mm High Flange Track Hub (front)
    Velocity Aerohead rims 32h (both)
    DT (14/15) or Wheelsmith (14/16) spokes - suggestions?

    Front wheel - radial laced all heads out (issues with this?)

    Rear wheel is where I am stumped...
    Traditionally I have laced the rear with the trailing spokes heads out and the leading spokes heads in with the leading spoke running inside the last trailing spoke. I have done this on both sides of the wheel - symetrically.

    With the flip-flop hub how should I do this? What was originally the trailing spoke on the left side will be come a leading spoke when the wheel is flipped to the right side. Sheldon Brown suggest that for fixed gear bikes the trailing spokes should be heads in (no problem) but what about the rest of the lacing pattern?

    Should I lace it so that...
    on the right side I have the trailing spoke heads in and have the leading spoke still cross inside the last trailing spoke but reverse everything for the other side - trailing heads out and have the trailing spoke cross inside the last leading spoke so when the wheel is flipped it is the same as the original right side?

    or am I just thinking too much about this?

    Sorry about the wordy (hopefully not too confusing) post.

    Thanks,
    Geoff
     
    Tags:


  2. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    FTM wrote:
    > Howdy,
    >
    > First post here...
    >
    > I'm in the process of building up a Fixed gear bike and will be
    > building my own wheels. I've built several set of wheels before but all
    > in the traditional manner 3-cross with drivetrain on the right.
    > Wondering if I need to approach the issue of a flip-flop track hub
    > differently.
    >
    > I'll be using:
    > Phil Wood 120mm High Flange fixed/fixed Track Hub (back)
    > Phil Wood 100mm High Flange Track Hub (front)
    > Velocity Aerohead rims 32h (both)
    > DT (14/15) or Wheelsmith (14/16) spokes - suggestions?
    >
    > Front wheel - radial laced all heads out (issues with this?)
    >
    > Rear wheel is where I am stumped...
    > Traditionally I have laced the rear with the trailing spokes heads out
    > and the leading spokes heads in with the leading spoke running inside
    > the last trailing spoke. I have done this on both sides of the wheel -
    > symetrically.
    >
    > With the flip-flop hub how should I do this? What was originally the
    > trailing spoke on the left side will be come a leading spoke when the
    > wheel is flipped to the right side. Sheldon Brown suggest that for
    > fixed gear bikes the trailing spokes should be heads in (no problem)
    > but what about the rest of the lacing pattern?
    >
    > Should I lace it so that...
    > on the right side I have the trailing spoke heads in and have the
    > leading spoke still cross inside the last trailing spoke but reverse
    > everything for the other side - trailing heads out and have the
    > trailing spoke cross inside the last leading spoke so when the wheel is
    > flipped it is the same as the original right side?
    >
    > or am I just thinking too much about this?
    >
    > Sorry about the wordy (hopefully not too confusing) post.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Geoff


    there's theoretically a small difference in tension increase experienced
    between heads-in vs. heads-out spokes when the hub is torqued. if you
    could ever notice this in practice is doubtful, but even so, shimano
    recommend building their disk hubs with spokes oriented heads-out in
    the direction of highest torque. check out "spoke lacing method" at the
    top right of their leaflet:
    http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/FH/si_images/XT FH disc_SI.pdf
    this is a little funky to build in practice, so keep a pre-built wheel
    handy for reference. copy the right side lacing pattern & reverse the
    left side lacing pattern.


    it's more likely a function of over-tension than anything, but the below
    flange failure /does/ have head-in spokes oriented for maximum torque,
    not head-out as is considered more conventional.
    http://freeengineer.org/flangefailure.html
     
  3. On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:15:34 +1100, FTM wrote:

    > Phil Wood 120mm High Flange fixed/fixed Track Hub (back)
    > Phil Wood 100mm High Flange Track Hub (front)
    > Velocity Aerohead rims 32h (both)
    > DT (14/15) or Wheelsmith (14/16) spokes - suggestions?
    >
    > Front wheel - radial laced all heads out (issues with this?)
    >
    > Rear wheel is where I am stumped...
    > Traditionally I have laced the rear with the trailing spokes heads out
    > and the leading spokes heads in with the leading spoke running inside
    > the last trailing spoke. I have done this on both sides of the wheel -
    > symetrically.


    Sorry, but you can't do that. You have to send me your hub, and I will
    take care of it.

    The point of which way the leading/trailing spokes are oriented was for
    derailleur bikes, so that, under pressure, the slight bow generated by
    the slacking of some spokes and stressing of the others --- that bowing
    should pull spokes away from the derailleur, rather than pull them towards
    it.

    But you do not have to worry about this. With no derailleur, it just
    doesn't matter.

    Personally, I do my front wheels with heads in, but that is just a
    preference. I also do the more-or-less parallel spokes on either side to
    be both heads-in, or heads-out. No reason.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
    _`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  4. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    FTM <[email protected]> writes:

    <snip>

    > Front wheel - radial laced all heads out (issues with this?)


    Well, radial spoking has a tendency to lead to premature flange
    failure and usually results in the warranty on your hubs being
    voided...

    > Rear wheel is where I am stumped...


    <snip>

    > or am I just thinking too much about this?


    Yes. Just build 'em three cross, pulling spokes heads-out on both
    sides. And even then it really doesn't matter very much- this is
    just how I've always laced rear wheels.
     
  5. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    FTM wrote:
    > I'm in the process of building up a Fixed gear bike and will be
    > building my own wheels.

    -snip-
    > Phil Wood 120mm High Flange fixed/fixed Track Hub (back)

    -snip-
    > Should I lace it so that...
    > on the right side I have the trailing spoke heads in and have the
    > leading spoke still cross inside the last trailing spoke but reverse
    > everything for the other side - trailing heads out and have the
    > trailing spoke cross inside the last leading spoke so when the wheel is
    > flipped it is the same as the original right side?
    >
    > or am I just thinking too much about this?


    Either.
    Although most of us have a preference, I believe we've
    agreed before here on r.b.t. that it just does not matter.

    Yes, you're overanalyzing it. Lube your nipples and get the
    tension right and you'll be just fine.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  6. FTM

    FTM New Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    0
    Thanks for your responses. I figured I was overanalyzing the issue. I tend to do that too often.

    As far as radially lacing the front wheel, I did check with Phil Wood and they didn't have any issues with me building the wheel this way but I was wondering about flange failure. I'm still debating this.

    Thanks,
    Geoff
     
  7. Geoff

    Geoff Guest

    On 2004-12-01 21:10:14 -0800, A Muzi <[email protected]> said:
    -snip-
    > Yes, you're overanalyzing it. Lube your nipples and get the tension
    > right and you'll be just fine.

    -snip-

    Thanks for your responses. I figured I was overanalyzing the issue. I
    tend to do that too often.

    As far as radially lacing the front wheel, I did check with Phil Wood
    and they didn't have any issues with me building the wheel this way but
    I was wondering about flange failure. I'm still debating this.

    ~ Geoff
     
  8. FTM asks-<< As far as radially lacing the front wheel, I did check with Phil
    Wood
    and they didn't have any issues with me building the wheel this way but
    I was wondering about flange failure. I'm still debating this. >><BR><BR>

    I answer-
    Phil hubs are very robust, I doubt you will have a flange problem but really no
    reason to do this.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  9. FTM-<< Wondering if I need to approach the issue of a flip-flop track hub
    differently. >><BR><BR>
    << Rear wheel is where I am stumped...
    Traditionally I have laced the rear with the trailing spokes heads out
    and the leading spokes heads in with the leading spoke running inside
    the last trailing spoke. I have done this on both sides of the wheel -
    symetrically. >><BR><BR>

    << With the flip-flop hub how should I do this?

    I answer-..it just doesn't matter. Either makes for a fine and dandy wheel,
    head in or head out.

    Use 14/15, DT, remember it is symmetrical so the same length right and left of
    the rear. These hubs are the best there is, I have them on my fixie.


    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  10. FTM wrote:

    > Howdy,
    >
    > First post here...
    >
    > I'm in the process of building up a Fixed gear bike and will be
    > building my own wheels. I've built several set of wheels before but all
    > in the traditional manner 3-cross with drivetrain on the right.
    > Wondering if I need to approach the issue of a flip-flop track hub
    > differently.
    >
    > I'll be using:
    > Phil Wood 120mm High Flange fixed/fixed Track Hub (back)
    > Phil Wood 100mm High Flange Track Hub (front)
    > Velocity Aerohead rims 32h (both)
    > DT (14/15) or Wheelsmith (14/16) spokes - suggestions?
    >
    > Front wheel - radial laced all heads out (issues with this?)


    Not much. Heads in is a bit stiffer and stronger, but not as pretty.
    If you had hubs with alternately drilled holes it would be a problem,
    obviously.

    > Rear wheel is where I am stumped...
    > Traditionally I have laced the rear with the trailing spokes heads out
    > and the leading spokes heads in with the leading spoke running inside
    > the last trailing spoke. I have done this on both sides of the wheel -
    > symetrically.
    >
    > With the flip-flop hub how should I do this? What was originally the
    > trailing spoke on the left side will be come a leading spoke when the
    > wheel is flipped to the right side. Sheldon Brown suggest that for
    > fixed gear bikes the trailing spokes should be heads in (no problem)
    > but what about the rest of the lacing pattern?


    It makes no difference to the strength of the wheel whether it's
    symmetrical or whether the leading spokes are heads in or out. The
    advantage of your normal build is that the chain is less likely to
    become jammed between the sprocket and the hub flange.

    Having said that, get the chainline right (or good enough) and the chain
    tight and all this is academic.
     
  11. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

    > Yes, you're overanalyzing it. Lube your nipples and get the tension
    > right and you'll be just fine.


    Hey, this is a family newsgroup! :-D
     
  12. zulutime

    zulutime Guest

    FTM <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Rear wheel is where I am stumped...
    > Traditionally I have laced the rear with the trailing spokes heads out
    > and the leading spokes heads in with the leading spoke running inside
    > the last trailing spoke. I have done this on both sides of the wheel -
    > symetrically.
    >
    > With the flip-flop hub how should I do this? What was originally the
    > trailing spoke on the left side will be come a leading spoke when the
    > wheel is flipped to the right side. Sheldon Brown suggest that for
    > fixed gear bikes the trailing spokes should be heads in (no problem)
    > but what about the rest of the lacing pattern?
    >
    > Should I lace it so that...
    > on the right side I have the trailing spoke heads in and have the
    > leading spoke still cross inside the last trailing spoke but reverse
    > everything for the other side - trailing heads out and have the
    > trailing spoke cross inside the last leading spoke so when the wheel is
    > flipped it is the same as the original right side?
    >


    Different size sprockets make the wheel asymmetrical. My symplistic
    strategy would be to lace the wheel conventionally, and install the
    larger (higher torque input) sprocket on the conventional side, and
    the smaller on the reversed side. This must have been figured out
    about a century ago.
     
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