FL Confidential? for those who don´t believe

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by acpinto, Jul 20, 2006.

  1. Eldron

    Eldron New Member

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    I've tilted from one side to the other on the obvious question - was Floyd "loaded" for this stage? I still have no answer - only ideas so here they are:

    When Rasmussen (a specialist climber) did the same he finished a few minutes ahead after 100km semi solo and suffered like a dog the last few km - when Landis did it he thundered the whole 130km way solo, pumped fist at end and climbed off like he'd just been out on a training ride (even had energy to push photgraphers out the way).

    No-one really had good legs on the stage (Kloden and Rogers even said they didn't) which suggest Landis rode well but not "oh my god he took drugs level".

    Landis took a gamble and no one chased - he gained 5 minutes in around 30 minutes of racing which paved the way for a good lead.

    There weren't really any flat parts where a team/group would have helped a lot.

    Landis descended all the mountains like a king.

    He took on HUGE amounts of water & food.

    I guess I've just answered my own question - Landis took a chance when no one was keen to ride hard and won big. Good on him! I'm not a big fan but a ride like that deserves praise indeed...
     


  2. helmutRoole2

    helmutRoole2 New Member

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    Yes. He got a lot of hand ups, and, as per SOP, he held on to those bottles being handed for a long time. That helped.

    Yes.

    Word.

    And, he's on drugs like everyone else. There, I said it. Plus, he spent almost zero time in the flats. The course profile looks like a handsaw. After his attack, set up by his team, the only flat section was just a few clicks in length.

    For me it was the perfect strategy on the perfect course and the perfect man for the job. I mean, before his "bonk" most thought he had the Tour in the bag. So, if he can win the Tour, that puts him on the level of a great rider. He did what great riders do.
     
  3. rejobako

    rejobako New Member

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    You don't believe that a rider can have an amazing day without cheating? Sorry, but I do. You don't need to "believe in miracles" to believe that a single motivated rider can make the right move at the right time and go 100 miles six minutes faster than everyone else. The "amazing" thing is not necessarily that Floyd stayed away, it's that the other teams let him get there. Look at the results once Sastre and the rest finally decided to chase -- Landis's advantage after that point remained fairly stable. The race was decided in the middle third, not the end.
     
  4. jhodder

    jhodder New Member

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    Coach carmichael summed it up the best on paceline.com.... (see article below)

    I was a world-class swimmer and was on occasion able to tap into an athlete within me that I didn't know was even there.... maybe that same inner strength or survival instinct that enables firemen to rip the door off of burning cars with their bare hands to save a person trapped inside..... P.S. Not believeing in miracles must make the world a pretty boring place.

    Coach Carmichael: The Animal Within Thursday, July 20, 2006

    People and animals are their most dangerous, and have the greatest potential for overcoming formidable odds, when they’re backed into a corner. Yesterday afternoon it looked like the Tour de France had crushed the life out of Floyd Landis, but in reality it may have just allowed him to reach further into himself to find a new, deeper source of strength.

    Landis came out fighting today, almost from the first pedal stroke, and as he crossed the finish line more than five hours later, his glaring eyes and clenched fist bore witness to the battle he’d waged all day. Beyond the physical ability to recover from the depleted energy stores, dehydration, or heat stress that could have caused him to crack on the final climb yesterday, a rider has to draw on deeply personal and valuable sources of motivation to pull off a performance like Landis did today. Fortunately, he had a few to choose from.

    The liberated man
    As awful as it feels to lose the yellow jersey and a huge chunk of time because of a bad day, it can also be liberating. Since the start of the Tour de France, and even in the months preceding it, Landis lived with the pressure of being a potential champion. As the race progressed, the pressure grew even greater as his every move was analyzed, examined, and criticized. The weight of the expectation that a rider is going to win the Tour de France can simply grow too heavy. Instead of riding and racing the way that made him a Tour contender in the first place, a rider can become cautious, hesitant, and nervous. Yesterday’s disastrous experience freed Landis from the pressure and today he was able to just do what he does best: race his bike.

    The condemned man
    An entirely different kind of motivation could have contributed to Landis’s incredible resurgence today as well, that of riding as a condemned man. As was revealed earlier in the Tour, Landis needs to have his hip replaced later this year and no one has returned to elite-level cycling following a hip replacement. Of course, before Lance Armstrong no one had ever come back from testicular cancer to win the Tour de France either, so the lack of precedent doesn’t automatically mean Landis’s career is doomed. Nevertheless, the impending surgery puts his career at risk and means that this year may be his best, and perhaps only, chance to win the Tour de France. Other riders like Oscar Pereiro, Andreas Kloden, Carlos Sastre, Denis Menchov, and Levi Leipheimer can come back and try to win next year if things don’t work out this time. What would you do if there was no next year? How much harder could you ride if today was your one and only chance to get back into the last race you might ever win?

    The man with nothing to lose
    Thoughts about his career may have been buried somewhere deep down in Floyd Landis today, but many riders shut out the long-range picture during the Tour de France so they can focus only on what they need to do from one day to the next. After going from wearing the yellow jersey to sitting in 11th place overall, more than eight minutes behind Oscar Pereiro, the man he allowed back into contention on Stage 13, Landis started Stage 17 with absolutely nothing left to lose. If he attacked off the front today and failed to either win the stage or move back up the leader board, so what? He came to the Tour to win. There’s no reason to defend 11th place, because to Landis there’s no real difference between finishing 11th, 20th, or dead last.

    Today Floyd Landis took the only option left to him after yesterday’s dramatic collapse; he attacked off the front waged war on the Tour de France. He stopped thinking, reached deep down and tapped into that primal, predatory urge we’ve suppressed for thousands of year, and rode with the strength of ten men to reassert himself as the strongest man in the race and the likely winner of the 2006 Tour de France.
     
  5. Mansmind

    Mansmind New Member

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    I still say the same thing I did yesterday.. he simply had the will to win. Apparently none of the others had as much will, or they would have been at least close to him. I don't think he's THAT much stronger than anyone, but he was THAT much more focused and determined (and I suspect, angry at himself for the previous day).
     
  6. DHinrichs

    DHinrichs New Member

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    The man with nothing to lose
    Thoughts about his career may have been buried somewhere deep down in Floyd Landis today, but many riders shut out the long-range picture during the Tour de France so they can focus only on what they need to do from one day to the next. After going from wearing the yellow jersey to sitting in 11th place overall, more than eight minutes behind Oscar Pereiro, the man he allowed back into contention on Stage 13, Landis started Stage 17 with absolutely nothing left to lose. If he attacked off the front today and failed to either win the stage or move back up the leader board, so what? He came to the Tour to win. There’s no reason to defend 11th place, because to Landis there’s no real difference between finishing 11th, 20th, or dead last.

    Today Floyd Landis took the only option left to him after yesterday’s dramatic collapse; he attacked off the front waged war on the Tour de France. He stopped thinking, reached deep down and tapped into that primal, predatory urge we’ve suppressed for thousands of year, and rode with the strength of ten men to reassert himself as the strongest man in the race and the likely winner of the 2006 Tour de France.[/QUOTE]This was my thought and was going to be my contribution to this discussion before I saw it written so well here. He had nothing to lose and put everything there was (including a great plan to make it happen) into either making it or flaming out in a spectacular way. He has been here to win and needed something extraordinary to get back there. Never underestimate what a strong will can accomplish in a last ditch effort.

    Secondly, these guys are in soooo much better shape than most of us have ever dreamed of attaining let alone ever been in. The ability of a body that is in fantastic shape to rebound from a wiped out condition is very high.
     
  7. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Two issues :

    Landis showed that he was all too fallible on Toussuire : so superhuman he is not (and this is to his credit).

    The following day, after having lost his lead, he comes out and rides a blinder.

    Was that blinder all down to him?
    Yes, in the majority.
    But his ride was aided and abetted by his fellow competitors allowing him to get away on the basis that he (Landis) would not be able to stay away.

    I think a rider can have one great day and do really really well.

    But given what we have seen and the allegations in this sport in recent times,
    part of me always wonders when I see a great ride.
    "Is he, isn't he" ?
     
  8. thebluetrain

    thebluetrain New Member

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    I agree. You hit the nail on the head. I dont think anyone in the peleton actually believed he could stay away. I cant understand why they would take that chance in the first place. Landis' attacks should have been covered.
     
  9. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    My opinion.
    First of all it was a great ride. No question at all on that score.

    Second of all, could any of his rivals have calculated (given what they witnessed the day before) that Landis could have stayed away for that distance?

    Landis looked like death warmed up, as he finished at Toussuire : he looked in a terrible state.
     
  10. stevebaby

    stevebaby New Member

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    Exactly.Landis had more faith in his ability to recover than his competitors did,and they paid the price for it.If he wins (and at this stage it seems likely..he's a pretty good TT rider) he will have earned and deserved the victory.
    It was one of the great rides.
     
  11. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    One thing to consider is that Landis outputted an average of 400W for the first 30 minutes of his initial attack. He weighs less than 70 kilos. There are very few riders in the peloton that had the power to weight ratio necessary to follow. The leaders were put to the question. Any of the G.C. men who might have gone with Landis would be taking a huge risk. In the modern era riders are more concerned about protecting their fourth place position than throwing the dice in a mad attempt to take first.

    If all the G.C. riders would have gone with Landis then it is guaranteed that some would be destroyed on the way to Morzine. Anyone dropped would have lost huge amounts of time. They collectively decided not to risk it and to leave the battle for the last climb.

    It was a smart gamble, but when they rolled he dice they crapped out.
     
  12. lefeur

    lefeur New Member

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    This is all sour gapes! Follow this link to see what Evans and Sinkeweitz had to say about Floyd.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul22news
     
  13. bobke

    bobke New Member

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    I think we should adopt a policy of saving doping allegations to riders who have been proven to have doped or are being suspended or officially sanctioned, like Jan Ullrich.
    To cast doubts on a great ride like Landis is poor form and poor sportsmanship.

    But setting that aside, I dont think FLoyd got 9 minutes on the peloton form taking handups from the team car!!!

    Quite the opposite. Because he got so many, the twenty or so I observed he grabbed so fast and held so little that I am sure it was on purpose to avoid any questions from the commissaires. No, Floyd was absolutely not holding on.
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I said Landis did a great ride.

    But it has to be acknowledged that his rivals did not (could not??) pursue Landis.


    So where's the sour grapes?
     
  15. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    ......and Lance Armstrong.


    You saying he's clean? You saying that all the 2006 TDF riders are clean also?

    Fuentes tells us that some of the dopers he helped are in the 2006 TDF field.

    So which is it?



    ...............tell me where I referred to handups, bottles or holding on to cars?
     
  16. LittleGreenFrog

    LittleGreenFrog New Member

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    POWER (WATTS) :

    Avoriaz 1985, Herrera, Hinault 375 w
    Superbagnères 1986, Lemond 380 w
    Alpe d’Huez 1987, Herrera 395 w, 1989 Fignon, Delgado 390 w

    Luz-Ardiden 1990, Indurain, Lemond 390 w
    Saint-Lary 1993, Indurain, Jaskula, Rominger 430 w
    Val Thorens 1994, Pantani 437 w
    Alpe d’Huez 1995, Pantani 460 w
    La Plagne 1995, Indurain 448 w
    Arcalis 1997,Ullrich 474 w
    Les Deux Alpes 1998, Pantani 450 w

    Hautacam 2000, Armstrong 449 w
    Alpe d’Huez 2001, Armstrong 442 w
    Luz-Ardiden 2003, Armstrong 442 w
    Courchevel 2005, Valverde, Armstrong 449 w

    Landis 2006 > 400 w => doping :cool:
     
  17. LittleGreenFrog

    LittleGreenFrog New Member

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    NB : 1991 => EPO era
     
  18. dm69

    dm69 New Member

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    Those other riders weren't hammering it for 100km's before hand tho. If those figures are correct then pantani was one scary S.O.B even for a doper. 460watts for a man of 55kg's? scary.
     
  19. acpinto

    acpinto New Member

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    I agree.
    I think TMO with Sinkwetiz with landis didn't had the responsability, We saw Kloden bad placed in the peloton for along time during de second and third climb therefore i think they already knew kloden wasn´t on a good day.
    CSC, rabo, illas even ag2r should organize the chase.

    However i don´t see how sheer determination would make the diference.
    Chanel hollywood had a movie of the american trak racer peny-----10 km, i relly don´t remember the name, he was 4th on Munique 72
    His trainer (Donald Sunderland) said something like this.:

    "An athelete thinking he wins by being more determined than the other is pure arrogance, because the body as limits".

    In my opinion sheer determination only gets( in this case) you to get a meltdown and lose everything, because it will waste your resources.
    But in that day FL had perfect human body. So he won!
     
  20. patch70

    patch70 New Member

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    Do you really think any of the riders that you listed above Floyd were not doping?

    5 Phonak riders busted or suspended in the last 2 years. Does this sound like a team that is encouraging dope-free racing?
     
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