Flash: Pope Blasts Islam
- Thread starter Carrera
- Start date
This is history you are referring to here again....I think my point is fairly clear on that.Carrera said:
Do you live in the southern United States? I have several relatives there and what you say here is not true. Nor is anything like this forced on them with swords drawn or calling for a head tax.
If this is your position then I hate to inform you that you are wrong. Please provide news clips, literature or any other evidence that there are religions in the U.S. or a world-wide movement calling for the sawing off of Muslim heads...If you can do this craphopper, then your point may become fairly clear.....and the argument that it occured in the past doesn't cut it....Just like slavery...it happened, it was wrong, it isn't U.S. policy today so let it go already...there are no slave owners currently living today so you can't blame me or anyone else for that now........
I think they're going to show a documentary on this kids for Jesus movement they discovered in some part of the U.S.A. It's run by some woman who wants to teach kids to be soldiers for Jesus. I don't know if it's an American made documentary or not.
To address your point further: I have a friend in L.A. who was schooled in a convent school. Although nobody had their head sawn off, my friend witnessed cruelty and sadism in this school on the part of the holy sisters. Some of the male students left the schools emotionally damaged, one winding up in a mental institution.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all nuns are sadists by any means. What I am saying is that these particular sisters based their acts of sadism on scripture.
The same goes for orphans who were sent to convent schools in Australia. The nuns beat them with sticks and made them have cold showers and work till they dropped.
To address your point further: I have a friend in L.A. who was schooled in a convent school. Although nobody had their head sawn off, my friend witnessed cruelty and sadism in this school on the part of the holy sisters. Some of the male students left the schools emotionally damaged, one winding up in a mental institution.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all nuns are sadists by any means. What I am saying is that these particular sisters based their acts of sadism on scripture.
The same goes for orphans who were sent to convent schools in Australia. The nuns beat them with sticks and made them have cold showers and work till they dropped.
2FAST4U said:
2 Fast, I think what Carrera is bringing up with the "Comeback" statements is the recent issues in the US where Christians argued their point of excluding "Creatonism" from being taught in schools. US Christians argued that both sides of the coin should be taught in schools. With the recent political correctness that has been forced on schools, Christians felt that Creatonism needed to be shown as an alternitive point.
Time to adopt Wurm tactics and do a quick copy and paste job. This is what I referred to:
“Without taking any sides, the Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady film, focuses on a bunch of little children who attend reverend Becky Fischer's 'Kids on Fire' summer camp in order to be groomed and trained to become the next soldiers in the army of God. They learn, under the close guidance of the reverend, that 'science doesn't prove anything' and that they are to be the future rulers of The daily activities in the camp include, besides the now usual children-oriented summer games, speaking in foreign languages and smashing coffee mugs with the word 'government' imprinted on them. They are forced to pledge they will fight against abortion and to publicly confess their childish impure thoughts.At one point, the camp director even admits that she admires the way Islamic children are bred to give their life for their country and hints that this might actually be the purpose of the 'Kids On Fire' camp. And it's not her and the reverend's ideas that are most disturbing, but the way the two directors manage to capture its influence on the children's behavior.
For example, 11-year-old Tori admits that she loves to dance to 'Christian rock', 9-year-old Rachel feels the need to walk up to strangers in the street and 'evangelize' them and all of them willingly accept to be placed on the Capitol steps with tape over their mouths as a sign of protest against abortion.
And, yet, all along the runtime of the documentary, the directors' input or influence cannot be sensed by the viewer. The two shun away from passing any kind of judgment and limit themselves only to presenting the real facts, about a real group of people living in complete isolation from the mainstream in North Dakota."
“Without taking any sides, the Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady film, focuses on a bunch of little children who attend reverend Becky Fischer's 'Kids on Fire' summer camp in order to be groomed and trained to become the next soldiers in the army of God. They learn, under the close guidance of the reverend, that 'science doesn't prove anything' and that they are to be the future rulers of The daily activities in the camp include, besides the now usual children-oriented summer games, speaking in foreign languages and smashing coffee mugs with the word 'government' imprinted on them. They are forced to pledge they will fight against abortion and to publicly confess their childish impure thoughts.At one point, the camp director even admits that she admires the way Islamic children are bred to give their life for their country and hints that this might actually be the purpose of the 'Kids On Fire' camp. And it's not her and the reverend's ideas that are most disturbing, but the way the two directors manage to capture its influence on the children's behavior.
For example, 11-year-old Tori admits that she loves to dance to 'Christian rock', 9-year-old Rachel feels the need to walk up to strangers in the street and 'evangelize' them and all of them willingly accept to be placed on the Capitol steps with tape over their mouths as a sign of protest against abortion.
And, yet, all along the runtime of the documentary, the directors' input or influence cannot be sensed by the viewer. The two shun away from passing any kind of judgment and limit themselves only to presenting the real facts, about a real group of people living in complete isolation from the mainstream in North Dakota."
snyper0311 said:
LA is not part of the Southern United States. Convent school is not a public school. Not sure if you refer to "Catholic School" which parents pay to have their kids sent there and beat with sticks...How long ago did this happen? Haven't seen that sort of behavior at Catholic Schools in my locality. Second, I have a nephew who goes to a "Southern Baptist" school and the only thing they wanted him to do was to burn his Alternative Rock CD's.....but they let him keep his ears.....Carrera said:
http://national.citysearch.com/profile/41868118//jesus_camp.html
"Pastor Becky Fischer holds a summer camp for kids at Devil's Lake in North Dakota. She's training Christian soldiers for God's Army, and Jesus Camp follows three white home-schooled Missouri children--Levi (now 13) , Rachael (now 10) and Tory (now 11)--through the camp from a year ago, to where they are now in their indoctrination. Filmmakers Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady present the religious brainwashing techniques in a slow, deliberate manner, as the evangelical Christian adults seem to transform the kids into Stepford-like children who spew the word of God for less than altruistic reasons. The children are shown being trained to bring Christ back to America, and use their ''Prophetic Gifts,'' of which they are told they all possess. There are also scenes of children blessing a cardboard figure of President Bush, saying prayers for conservative Supreme Court justice nominees and 7-year-olds in painted faces dancing spiritual war dances, believing prayer can fix their malfunctioning film projector. The filmmakers try in vain to remain objective, but it's impossible.
Acting
As a documentary, the participants of Jesus Camp come across as realistic as they can even though they are aware of the camera at all times. Some of the scenes seem to play to the cameras, in disturbing reality, as the angelic faces are moved to tears by their religious fervor, or turned into unworldly contortions as they speak in tongues. Levi wants to be a mega-church pastor, speaking to congregations of thousands, while Rachael wants to be a missionary in far-off places and is bent on recruiting her neighbor. Tory spreads her message through dance and attends anti-abortion rallies. Pastor Becky is also shown in revealing moments, especially as she obsesses more about her appearance than Tammy Faye Baker would."
"Pastor Becky Fischer holds a summer camp for kids at Devil's Lake in North Dakota. She's training Christian soldiers for God's Army, and Jesus Camp follows three white home-schooled Missouri children--Levi (now 13) , Rachael (now 10) and Tory (now 11)--through the camp from a year ago, to where they are now in their indoctrination. Filmmakers Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady present the religious brainwashing techniques in a slow, deliberate manner, as the evangelical Christian adults seem to transform the kids into Stepford-like children who spew the word of God for less than altruistic reasons. The children are shown being trained to bring Christ back to America, and use their ''Prophetic Gifts,'' of which they are told they all possess. There are also scenes of children blessing a cardboard figure of President Bush, saying prayers for conservative Supreme Court justice nominees and 7-year-olds in painted faces dancing spiritual war dances, believing prayer can fix their malfunctioning film projector. The filmmakers try in vain to remain objective, but it's impossible.
Acting
As a documentary, the participants of Jesus Camp come across as realistic as they can even though they are aware of the camera at all times. Some of the scenes seem to play to the cameras, in disturbing reality, as the angelic faces are moved to tears by their religious fervor, or turned into unworldly contortions as they speak in tongues. Levi wants to be a mega-church pastor, speaking to congregations of thousands, while Rachael wants to be a missionary in far-off places and is bent on recruiting her neighbor. Tory spreads her message through dance and attends anti-abortion rallies. Pastor Becky is also shown in revealing moments, especially as she obsesses more about her appearance than Tammy Faye Baker would."
If your point is that radical Islamics are currently showing themselves to be more extreme than Jews and Christians in these modern times, I take your point.
What I'm saying, though, is this Islamic extremism is a fairly recent phenomenon since if you look at Islamic leaders like Malcolm X, he didn't pose a direct violent threat to the U.S.A. - neither did the Nation Of Islam. They stood for civil rights and peaceful expression of their religion. It's only over the last decade that militant Islam has posed a genuine threat to freedom of expression with terrorism thrown in. Yes, it has to be dealt with somehow but no it's not unique.
I think education is the best means of combating the extremism. Being moslem isn't really the problem as opposed to education and tolerance through education.
If Moslems, Jews and Christians were educated to at least understand the ideas behind their respective religions, I doubt we'd be seeing so much violence. I mean, Rageh Omar is a moslem yet he knows a lot about the history of Judaism and Christianity and could probably defend his beliefs without resorting to shouting "death to infidels" in the streets of London.
What I'm saying, though, is this Islamic extremism is a fairly recent phenomenon since if you look at Islamic leaders like Malcolm X, he didn't pose a direct violent threat to the U.S.A. - neither did the Nation Of Islam. They stood for civil rights and peaceful expression of their religion. It's only over the last decade that militant Islam has posed a genuine threat to freedom of expression with terrorism thrown in. Yes, it has to be dealt with somehow but no it's not unique.
I think education is the best means of combating the extremism. Being moslem isn't really the problem as opposed to education and tolerance through education.
If Moslems, Jews and Christians were educated to at least understand the ideas behind their respective religions, I doubt we'd be seeing so much violence. I mean, Rageh Omar is a moslem yet he knows a lot about the history of Judaism and Christianity and could probably defend his beliefs without resorting to shouting "death to infidels" in the streets of London.
2FAST4U said:
I hear ya but it doesn't matter. We (christians) could educate ourselves until we are blue in the face and it doesn't matter to these whackos. I donot believe in metophysics and I'm not about to alter my personality to change someone elses behavior... All these loons need to do is shut up, practice their religion and stop the violence...If they did, we wouldn't be having this debate. Second, I would feel the same way if we were talking about born again christians as well....Just so happens, they are not the ones shooting nuns in the back!Carrera said:
I can't come up with an answer as to why it is acts of inhumanity are so often linked to religion. Sometimes it's Islam that's used as the excuse but there are times when people have used Christianity as a pretext - the Ku-Klux-Klan and many slavers were self-professed Christians.
At any rate, rather than ranting and raving in the streets and going on about Jihad Moslems could have calmly and rationally pointed out that Christians have burnt people at the stake, persecuted pagans and Jews and wiped out ethnic groups in South America.
Rather than point out Islam has shown itself to be tolerant in the past modern moslems fell into a pit by burning images of the Pope and taking to the streets in some cases.
At any rate, rather than ranting and raving in the streets and going on about Jihad Moslems could have calmly and rationally pointed out that Christians have burnt people at the stake, persecuted pagans and Jews and wiped out ethnic groups in South America.
Rather than point out Islam has shown itself to be tolerant in the past modern moslems fell into a pit by burning images of the Pope and taking to the streets in some cases.
2FAST4U said:
2FAST4U said:
Hold up here.
You chimed in with your "for the record, I support the Pope's comments".
You chimed in with this "vote of support" after the Popes initial addresson 12/09/06, but before any further statement was made by the Pope on 17/09/06.
2FAST4U said:
2FAST4U said:
Listen - you didn't understand the Popes speech at Regensberg.
2FAST4U said:
Do you know who is responsible for the murder of the nun ?
If person responsible for this murder should be brought to justice - then the full rigours of the law should apply.
I hope that in this case the culprit will be brought to justice.
And that's right you posted your initial comments BEFORE the murder of that nun.
2FAST4U said:
No intiating a debate/argument with you.
Just pointing out the fact that you haven't got a clue.
Carrera said:
Immaterial.
The Pope stated on 17/09/06 that his comments in his speech at 12/09/06, do not reflect his personal views on Islam.
Carrera said:
Presumably you saw Tony Robinsons documentary last Sat on C4, about the US "end of timers"?
Plenty of zealous "christian" warriors were shown in that documentary,
I agree with you - there is an extremist "christian" element based in the USA.
I think to understand these issues one must realise that religion is incredibly flexible. It can be used as a call to subservience or rebellion, for peace or war.
Political islam is expressing modern ideas and in reaction to modern realities. like nationalism and imperialism. Why is Islam the most popular flag of anti-imperialist resistance? Namely, because the nationalist secular movements in the Arab world were defeated by Israel and the US, with the help of their own realiance on stalinist interpretations of socialist tactics. (cosy up with right wing nationalists that eventually chop your heads off, all in the hope of establishing a "popular front" against imperialism)
Sure there are "fundamentalist" Islamic groups that are truly guided by their leaders interpretation of Islam. But time and time again throughout history in religious societies we see a political movement end up expressing its aims in religious terms.
The thirty years war in Europe was obsensibly religious. But what you see motivating people is not religion per say but incipient nationalism, liberalism and ideas regarding property rights.
Likewise in the middle east Jihad can be used to mean "war for independence" or "struggle against imperialism" which are the real motivators.
In Iraq, 90% want us troops out. In the absense of a secular alternative they express this urge through the langauge of religion.
Political islam is expressing modern ideas and in reaction to modern realities. like nationalism and imperialism. Why is Islam the most popular flag of anti-imperialist resistance? Namely, because the nationalist secular movements in the Arab world were defeated by Israel and the US, with the help of their own realiance on stalinist interpretations of socialist tactics. (cosy up with right wing nationalists that eventually chop your heads off, all in the hope of establishing a "popular front" against imperialism)
Sure there are "fundamentalist" Islamic groups that are truly guided by their leaders interpretation of Islam. But time and time again throughout history in religious societies we see a political movement end up expressing its aims in religious terms.
The thirty years war in Europe was obsensibly religious. But what you see motivating people is not religion per say but incipient nationalism, liberalism and ideas regarding property rights.
Likewise in the middle east Jihad can be used to mean "war for independence" or "struggle against imperialism" which are the real motivators.
In Iraq, 90% want us troops out. In the absense of a secular alternative they express this urge through the langauge of religion.
Carrera said:
The problem here is that we always see cases of people who cause shock and outrage backtracking when the going gets tough. Salmon Rushdie did it and so did John Lennon after he blurted out the Beatles were bigger than Christ.
Personally I would never do that. This is why Muhammad Ali was so courageous in his time since he didn't back down over his views in the face of pressure. Rushdie, to my mind, sold out when the going got tough.
The Pope is bound to say he didn't really mean it. What choice does he have, being faced with riots in countries such as Turkey that he plans to visit? Just because the Pope says he didn't really mean it, doesn't necessarily mean he's not acting under pressure.
Personally, to a certain extent, I agree with the Pope but with the exception that he failed to point out the Christian Church also has a bloody, violent history too.
Personally I would never do that. This is why Muhammad Ali was so courageous in his time since he didn't back down over his views in the face of pressure. Rushdie, to my mind, sold out when the going got tough.
The Pope is bound to say he didn't really mean it. What choice does he have, being faced with riots in countries such as Turkey that he plans to visit? Just because the Pope says he didn't really mean it, doesn't necessarily mean he's not acting under pressure.
Personally, to a certain extent, I agree with the Pope but with the exception that he failed to point out the Christian Church also has a bloody, violent history too.
limerickman said:
Extreme Islam only becomes a threat when the west becomes too weak. Most of the problems we had with extreme Islam has been caused within our own countries (being ridiculously too liberal) as opposed to Iraq or outside.
If governments begin to believe they are wrong to support freedom and secularism then there is a void that opens up. The void will be filled by whoever is willing to fill it.
When fanatics are alowed to shout for the death penalty for infidels in the streets of London and burn images of the Pope with violent intent, then that indicates we have a major problem within the country - namely of being too weak and liberal to defend certain values. If this weakness is seen in the fundamentalist world, they'll certainly take advantage of it.
None of this would have been tolerated in Moscow or Japan, let alone China.
If governments begin to believe they are wrong to support freedom and secularism then there is a void that opens up. The void will be filled by whoever is willing to fill it.
When fanatics are alowed to shout for the death penalty for infidels in the streets of London and burn images of the Pope with violent intent, then that indicates we have a major problem within the country - namely of being too weak and liberal to defend certain values. If this weakness is seen in the fundamentalist world, they'll certainly take advantage of it.
None of this would have been tolerated in Moscow or Japan, let alone China.
11ring said:
Carrera said:
Ali while waiting for a plane to take off was told to buckle his seat belt. He replied "Superman don't need no seatbelt". The flight attendant replied " Superman don't need no plane,buckle-up"! Ali complied.
He was a colorful character,great boxer and entertainer in his day, but totally full of **** sometimes,in a charming way.
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