"Flat Bar" Road Bikes: What's The Point?

[Robin Hubert]

"Ed Chait" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Russell Yim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >It's 100% fashion and marketing. The bicycle industry needs a new type of bike every few years.
> >
> > That's kinda what I was thinking.
> >
>
> People have been converting drop bar road bikes to flat bars for a long
time
> now in order to achieve the position and fit they want.

Most of these people are misdirected, as others have pointed out, because they went from an
ill-fitting road bike with drop bars way too far out and too low to a straight bar that brought them
well back and possibly up with their new stem. I went the other way and converted an old ('90-ish)
rigid mtb to drops after having discomfort and even ulnar neuropathy on longer rides. Bar-end
attachments helped that, but something was missing ... then I got a road bike and discovered (or I
should say, "rediscovered") drop bars. Thus, the conversion. My experience has taught me that drop
bars are superior in all respects to flat bars, except for pure off-roading. The need to pull the
front end up and the drops being the most secure area of the bars leads to bruised forearms (and
sometimes a traumatized radial n.).

> It only makes sense that these bikes are now being produced by manufacturers.

It only makes sense from a marketing perspective.

>
> What surprises me is that they took so long to figure this out, when the demand has been there
> for ages.

It's called an mtb.

> The bike industry is an icon of fashion driven marketing, but I don't
think
> flat bar road bikes are an example of this. It's a valid product, with a valid demand proven by
> do-it-yourself conversions.
>

Valid, yes. Useful? I don't know. Acceptable, I guess.

Robin Hubert cv2572@earthlink.****.net

 

[Robin Hubert]

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> > Yes, of course. But if they don't ride it lots, then we in the industry haven't done a very good
> > job. Yes, we've sold a bike at low margin, but did the customer become a cyclist, and buy all
> > the high margin goodies that go along with the bike?
>

>
> > >Heaven forbid that you would give them what they want...
> >
> > As I've said, I *will* give them what they want, but I'd rather give them what they "need."
>
> "I am God. I know what the customer needs and wants. What they think
they
> need means **** because they are just petty little lemmings."
>
> Just paraphrasing for the rest of the group...
> --
>

Your sense for paraphrasing is way, way off.

Well, if you weren't just a squid in training, you'd know their's a lot of wisdom in this group.
For example, I can tell you that the flat bar position is un-natural, anatomically speaking, with
the rider pronating and internally rotating the arms, causing stress in the shoulders and neck. It
also places unnecessary pressure on the ulnar nerve. I can also tell you that drop bars offer a
better solution to the anatomic issue as both riding on or near the hoods and in the drops places
the upper extremeties in a more normal, less strained anatomic position. That's what primarily
makes drop bars superior.

Of course, a proper bike fit is important but most people don't know what that is, aside from
emulating the racers, or being brainwashed by the marketing staff of X-brand bicycles.

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

 

[Robin Hubert]

Kraig Willett wrote:
> Todd, what method do you use to design your frames?

Kraig,

I get where you are going, but we are not trying to push the limits of new materials with Heron
frames. What we sell has been well-proven over decades of use.

My issue is the disparity between what is claimed in the marketing materials and what engineering
development has actually been done. The fact that many of the claims can be seen to be patently
untrue to even non-technical observers does not instill confidence in these companies. I make no
claims that Heron frames violate the laws of physics in any way.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery LaSalle, IL 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com http://www.tullios.com

 

[Ned Mantei]

In article <[email protected]>, "Robin Hubert"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Yes, people come for your advice and it's your duty to inform them as to what's best for them. In
>most cases, most people that ride a road bike ought to have drop bars. I cannot think of a reason
>to not use them.

Unexpected braking in city traffic is for me a key reason not to use drop bars. For many years I
rode a Trek 520 with drop bars. At least once I flew over the handlebars when a pedestrian listened
but didn't look, and stepped out into the street just in front of me. If I had been riding with my
hands on the brakes, which is easy with straight bars, I could have stopped in a controlled manner.
I was never able to stop sharply by pulling from over the brake hoods.

My next bike (a Swiss Aarios) was generally similar to the Trek, but with barends and bars with only
a slight curve (see http://www.veloplus.ch/velo_detail.asp?IDK=100&IDA=627 ). Results: 1)I feel
safer in the city. 2) I could try out various adjustments of the curved bars and barends until I
found settings that were most comfortable (the bars are now rotated forward relative to what's shown
in the picture referred to above, the barends point up at a 60 degree angle). This bike is generally
more comfortable than the Trek. Possibly this is just because the bars on the Trek are lower, but
certainly not lower than what one sees everywhere with road bikes. 3) The newer bike is indeed
slower in a headwind, but I am not racing.

--
Ned Mantei (58 years old and riding daily, but not yet part of the "retired crowd") Department of
Cell Biology, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology CH-8093 Zurich, Switzerland

 

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 17 May 2003 17:22:10 GMT, "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> My gut would get in the way if I was on the drops.

>Of course the alternative solution is to put the drops where your gut isn't in the way ("raise dem
>bars!"). Crazy, huh?

?

If I'm on dropbars, I'm bent right over. My lungs, legs and gut would be competing for space.

I've tried it. It's not comfortable at all.
--
------- o ----- <#\, --- ()/() Belfast Biker Specialized Sirrus + Gilera Runner! N54 33' W05 58'

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 16 May 2003 04:06:39 -0400, amerigo wrote:

> "Russell" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:[email protected]...
>> OK, I've got a question/comment. Maybe I'm just too opinionated, but what is the point of these
>> flat bar road bikes, a.k.a fitness bikes? I guess they are for people that want a fast street
>> bike, but are "afraid" of the drop style bars?
>>
> it is much more difficult to brake using drop style bars

Why would you say that? I think you either aren't fitted properly, or simply haven't learned how to
use brakes on drop bars. And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with getting your hands into the
drops. I never brake that way.

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 16 May 2003 12:52:21 -0400, Kevin wrote:

> I bought my wife a left-over '93 Cannondale road bike when we first started dating. She hardly
> ever used it - she preferred her Mt. Bike even on the road. It turns out she has very small hands
> and could not reach the brake levers. I converted the Cannondale to a straight bar and now she
> loves to ride it.

And you are unaware that they make both drop bars and brake levers for those bars for people with
short arms and small hands?

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 16 May 2003 21:28:30 -0400, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

>> > it is much more difficult to brake using drop style bars
>>
>> That's simply untrue.
>
>
> But you can brake with stoppie/endo force much easier on flat, and in a shorter distance, too.

Applying maximum braking force is basically a matter of moving your body on the bike so as to keep
the center of gravity back and down to prevent a pitchover. You can move your center of gravity
equally well with drop bars or flat bars, and you can certainly apply the brakes with enough force
to produce maximum braking with either type of lever or bar.

> Drop bars can stoppie easily but that's b/c your CoG is so much farther forward.

You can achieve exactly the same riding position with either type of bar. What can you possibly be
thinking of?

 

[Squid-In-Traini]

"Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
> news[email protected]...
> > > Yes, of course. But if they don't ride it lots, then we in the
industry
> > > haven't done a very good job. Yes, we've sold a bike at low margin,
but
> > > did the customer become a cyclist, and buy all the high margin goodies that go along with the
> > > bike?
> >

> >
> > > >Heaven forbid that you would give them what they want...
> > >
> > > As I've said, I *will* give them what they want, but I'd rather give them what they "need."
> >
> > "I am God. I know what the customer needs and wants. What they think
> they
> > need means **** because they are just petty little lemmings."
> >
> > Just paraphrasing for the rest of the group...
> > --
> >
>
> Your sense for paraphrasing is way, way off.
>
> Well, if you weren't just a squid in training, you'd know their's a lot of wisdom in this group.
> For example, I can tell you that the flat bar position is un-natural, anatomically speaking, with
> the rider pronating
and
> internally rotating the arms, causing stress in the shoulders and neck.
It
> also places unnecessary pressure on the ulnar nerve. I can also tell you that drop bars offer a
> better solution to the anatomic issue as both
riding
> on or near the hoods and in the drops places the upper extremeties in a
more
> normal, less strained anatomic position. That's what primarily makes drop bars superior.

You've told me a lot of what suits you. If they are superior, why isn't everyone riding with them?

> Of course, a proper bike fit is important but most people don't know what that is, aside from
> emulating the racers, or being brainwashed by the marketing staff of X-brand bicycles.

Maybe marketing has something to do with it. But I hardly believe that people are saying "Wow... I
look cool but I'm also now sterile. Oh well, no matter."

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Squid-In-Traini]

"Steve Palincsar" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 16 May 2003 21:28:30 -0400, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>
> >> > it is much more difficult to brake using drop style bars
> >>
> >> That's simply untrue.
> >
> >
> > But you can brake with stoppie/endo force much easier on flat, and in a shorter distance, too.
>
> Applying maximum braking force is basically a matter of moving your body on the bike so as to keep
> the center of gravity back and down to prevent a pitchover. You can move your center of gravity
> equally well with drop bars or flat bars, and you can certainly apply the brakes with enough force
> to produce maximum braking with either type of lever or bar.

No, you can't.

>
> > Drop bars can stoppie easily but that's b/c your CoG is so much farther forward.
>
> You can achieve exactly the same riding position with either type of bar. What can you possibly be
> thinking of?

Not with the same frame/wheel geometry and same stem. To reach the brakes on a drop bar (from the
top), you have to reach 10 cm further. Even further if you'er in the drops.

Road bars tend to be lower than MTB bars, not to mention that a fewer percentage of MTB riders run
their stems upside down.

If you run your road stem like apehangers, I can see how you might be right.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Robin Hubert]

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message
> > news[email protected]...
> > > > Yes, of course. But if they don't ride it lots, then we in the
> industry
> > > > haven't done a very good job. Yes, we've sold a bike at low margin,
> but
> > > > did the customer become a cyclist, and buy all the high margin
goodies
> > > > that go along with the bike?
> > >

> > >
> > > > >Heaven forbid that you would give them what they want...
> > > >
> > > > As I've said, I *will* give them what they want, but I'd rather give them what they "need."
> > >
> > > "I am God. I know what the customer needs and wants. What they think
> > they
> > > need means **** because they are just petty little lemmings."
> > >
> > > Just paraphrasing for the rest of the group...
> > > --
> > >
> >
> > Your sense for paraphrasing is way, way off.
> >
> > Well, if you weren't just a squid in training, you'd know their's a lot
of
> > wisdom in this group. For example, I can tell you that the flat bar position is un-natural,
> > anatomically speaking, with the rider pronating
> and
> > internally rotating the arms, causing stress in the shoulders and neck.
> It
> > also places unnecessary pressure on the ulnar nerve. I can also tell
you
> > that drop bars offer a better solution to the anatomic issue as both
> riding
> > on or near the hoods and in the drops places the upper extremeties in a
> more
> > normal, less strained anatomic position. That's what primarily makes
drop
> > bars superior.
>
> You've told me a lot of what suits you. If they are superior, why isn't everyone riding with them?

If I've described what suits me, please describe it back to me. I don't think I gave you any
information as to what suits me. I have three bikes, two with drop bars, and one with straight
bars/barends. I confess the one is a mtb. Do you think you know how I have 'em set up?

> > Of course, a proper bike fit is important but most people don't know
what
> > that is, aside from emulating the racers, or being brainwashed by the marketing staff of X-brand
> > bicycles.
>
> Maybe marketing has something to do with it. But I hardly believe that people are saying "Wow... I
> look cool but I'm also now sterile. Oh well,
no
> matter."

Sterility? Mebbe you ought to be riding a rec-numb-butt.

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

 

[Robin Hubert]

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message
> > news[email protected]...
> > > > Yes, of course. But if they don't ride it lots, then we in the
> industry
> > > > haven't done a very good job. Yes, we've sold a bike at low margin,
> but
> > > > did the customer become a cyclist, and buy all the high margin
goodies
> > > > that go along with the bike?
> > >

> > >
> > > > >Heaven forbid that you would give them what they want...
> > > >
> > > > As I've said, I *will* give them what they want, but I'd rather give them what they "need."
> > >
> > > "I am God. I know what the customer needs and wants. What they think
> > they
> > > need means **** because they are just petty little lemmings."
> > >
> > > Just paraphrasing for the rest of the group...
> > > --
> > >
> >
> > Your sense for paraphrasing is way, way off.
> >
> > Well, if you weren't just a squid in training, you'd know their's a lot
of
> > wisdom in this group. For example, I can tell you that the flat bar position is un-natural,
> > anatomically speaking, with the rider pronating
> and
> > internally rotating the arms, causing stress in the shoulders and neck.
> It
> > also places unnecessary pressure on the ulnar nerve. I can also tell
you
> > that drop bars offer a better solution to the anatomic issue as both
> riding
> > on or near the hoods and in the drops places the upper extremeties in a
> more
> > normal, less strained anatomic position. That's what primarily makes
drop
> > bars superior.
>
> You've told me a lot of what suits you. If they are superior, why isn't everyone riding with them?

If I've described what suits me, please describe it back to me. I don't think I gave you any
information as to what suits me. I have three bikes, two with drop bars, and one with straight
bars/barends. I confess the one is a mtb. Do you think you know how I have 'em set up?

> > Of course, a proper bike fit is important but most people don't know
what
> > that is, aside from emulating the racers, or being brainwashed by the marketing staff of X-brand
> > bicycles.
>
> Maybe marketing has something to do with it. But I hardly believe that people are saying "Wow... I
> look cool but I'm also now sterile. Oh well,
no
> matter."

Sterility? Mebbe you ought to be riding a rec-numb-butt.

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

 

[Ant]

Ned Mantei <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Unexpected braking in city traffic is for me a key reason not to use drop bars. For many years I
> rode a Trek 520 with drop bars. At least once I flew over the handlebars when a pedestrian
> listened but didn't look, and stepped out into the street just in front of me. If I had been
> riding with my hands on the brakes, which is easy with straight bars, I could have stopped in a
> controlled manner. I was never able to stop sharply by pulling from over the brake hoods.

i already posted on this, but im gonna' say it again. why dont you grab a cross lever and throw
that on your drop bar bike? dont say they're expensive, difficult to install, or ugly, 'cause
they ain't..

> My next bike (a Swiss Aarios) was generally similar to the Trek, but with barends and bars with
> only a slight curve (see http://www.veloplus.ch/velo_detail.asp?IDK=100&IDA=627 ). Results: 1)I
> feel safer in the city. 2) I could try out various adjustments of the curved bars and barends
> until I found settings that were most comfortable (the bars are now rotated forward relative to
> what's shown in the picture referred to above, the barends point up at a 60 degree angle). This
> bike is generally more comfortable than the Trek. Possibly this is just because the bars on the
> Trek are lower, but certainly not lower than what one sees everywhere with road bikes. 3) The
> newer bike is indeed slower in a headwind, but I am not racing.

i get the best of both worlds with my bike. when im riding around at any speed, i spend my times in
the drops, or on the hoods when things get tricky. but when im in the city, bumming along, want to
look around, etc, i have a cross lever for my front brake on the tops of the bars.

http://www.bikeman.com/catalog/brakes/roadleverstektrocross.htm for a picture.

its comfy up there, when things are slow. im not much of a group rider, but i went on a few club
rides early this year. the rides i went on happened to be really chill, and everyone was riding
their hoods the whole time, stretched out. i asked a couple why they spent time on the hoods, rather
than the tops. they said becuase they needed the quick brakes (heavy traffic). i could toodle on teh
tops, but i had quick brakes.

as folks have mentioned before, if people want an upright position for chill riding, i think the
ideal bike would be a road bike with drops, a short/high stem, and a cross lever (or two?). the
flats are there. the brakes are there. and whatddya know-- the aero position is there too.

for those who want people to 'become cyclists', it only takes one time for a rider to feel the
breeze, try the drops, feel it get easier, and ta-da.. another convert!

seriously- why arent c.levers a viable best-of-both-worlds option?

anthony

 

[Squid-In-Traini]

"Ned Mantei" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Robin Hubert"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >Yes, people come for your advice and it's your duty to inform them as to what's best for them. In
> >most cases, most people that ride a road bike ought to have drop bars. I cannot think of a reason
> >to not use them.
>
>
> Unexpected braking in city traffic is for me a key reason not to use drop bars. For many years I
> rode a Trek 520 with drop bars. At least once I flew over the handlebars when a pedestrian
> listened but didn't look, and stepped out into the street just in front of me. If I had been
> riding with my hands on the brakes, which is easy with straight bars, I could have stopped in a
> controlled manner. I was never able to stop sharply by pulling from over the brake hoods.
>
> My next bike (a Swiss Aarios) was generally similar to the Trek, but with barends and bars with
> only a slight curve (see http://www.veloplus.ch/velo_detail.asp?IDK=100&IDA=627 ). Results: 1)I
> feel safer in the city. 2) I could try out various adjustments of the curved bars and barends
> until I found settings that were most comfortable (the bars are now rotated forward relative to
> what's shown in the picture referred to above, the barends point up at a 60 degree angle). This
> bike is generally more comfortable than the Trek. Possibly this is just because the bars on the
> Trek are lower, but certainly not lower than what one sees everywhere with road bikes. 3) The
> newer bike is indeed slower in a headwind, but I am not racing.

Not to mention that you have an SUV view with flat bars, and you can brace yourself against them.
Not possible with drops (unless you're in the drops and then you defeat the purpose of the highness
of the flat bars).

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Squid-In-Traini]

> > > Your sense for paraphrasing is way, way off.
> > >
> > > Well, if you weren't just a squid in training, you'd know their's a
lot
> of
> > > wisdom in this group. For example, I can tell you that the flat bar position is un-natural,
> > > anatomically speaking, with the rider
pronating
> > and
> > > internally rotating the arms, causing stress in the shoulders and
neck.
> > It
> > > also places unnecessary pressure on the ulnar nerve. I can also tell
> you
> > > that drop bars offer a better solution to the anatomic issue as both
> > riding
> > > on or near the hoods and in the drops places the upper extremeties in
a
> > more
> > > normal, less strained anatomic position. That's what primarily makes
> drop
> > > bars superior.
> >
> > You've told me a lot of what suits you. If they are superior, why isn't everyone riding
> > with them?
>
> If I've described what suits me, please describe it back to me. I don't think I gave you any
> information as to what suits me. I have three bikes, two with drop bars, and one with straight
> bars/barends. I confess the one is a mtb. Do you think you know how I have 'em set up?
>
> > > Of course, a proper bike fit is important but most people don't know
> what
> > > that is, aside from emulating the racers, or being brainwashed by the marketing staff of
> > > X-brand bicycles.
> >
> > Maybe marketing has something to do with it. But I hardly believe that people are saying "Wow...
> > I look cool but I'm also now sterile. Oh
well,
> no
> > matter."
>
> Sterility? Mebbe you ought to be riding a rec-numb-butt.

You claim that drop bars "offer a better anatomic solution" and place "the upper extremities in a
more normal, less strained anatomic position."

Personally, sitting up is the least straining position for me, and I believe it is so for many
people. You say that drops offer less strain, so I assume that must apply to you.

I ride my commuter road bike in the drops 50% of the time for aerodynamics. Granted, I ride no more
than a mile on each leg of my trips, so I don't get fatigued. Anything over 10 miles is really hard
on me though.

My point about sterility is that maybe the person's ass isn't positioned correctly (causing lack of
blood to the cojones) with drop bars while they are with a flat one.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> Try to get the bars level with the seat on some bikes, short quilled stems or threadless forks
> with the steerer tube cut too short, either way it can be difficult. So you get compact frame
> bikes with flat bars as "fitness bikes". Look at a Trek catalog, the touring bike has the bars 4+
> inches below the seat, no wonder people "know" drops are uncomfortable, now look at the fitness
> bikes, bars near seat level.

Thankfully not even close to being true in real life. The catalog shots show a seat way up in the
air (nearly all do) for reasons I don't understand. The reality is that the drop from seat to
handlebar is pretty small for most people, particularly for the two smallest sizes (which have top
tube that slope up towards the front, putting the handlebars higher).

> Take a Lemond road bike, put a short reach Technomic deluxe stem on it, with the bars at seat
> level. Then send the customer out on ride with a fast down hill. Then try the same on a fitness
> bike. Which bike feels more secure ? You could get a broader range of fit on a PX-10 than a 5900,
> and fit larger tires for city riding or Paris Roubaix, ain't progress great ?

I remain baffled by those who feel you cannot get much height adjustment out of a bike with a
threadless fork. The reality is that, if you really want to put a handlebar way up in the air on a
5900, you can. If the current stock of stems, many with steep upward angles, doesn't do the trick...
you can always install an extension piece that will kick the bars up as high as a Technomic stem,
and you can certainly get it set up with as short a forward reach.

Tires are a different story... modern road bikes generally won't allow for wider than a 28c tire
(and some won't even go that high). So I suppose an old PX-10 with Del Mondo tubulars would, in
fact, have a softer ride. Fortunately, TREK isn't marketing a 5900 for "city riding." The current
crop of CycloCross bikes would be ideal for that.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> I ride my commuter road bike in the drops 50% of the time for
aerodynamics.
> Granted, I ride no more than a mile on each leg of my trips, so I don't
get
> fatigued. Anything over 10 miles is really hard on me though.

OK, I'll bite. Why are aerodynamics important doing "commutes" of one mile or less? I wouldn't
think it would matter much whether you were riding an upright 3-speed or Lance's time trial bike
for such trips.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[W K]

"Steve Palincsar" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 16 May 2003 04:06:39 -0400, amerigo wrote:
>
>
> > "Russell" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> OK, I've got a question/comment. Maybe I'm just too opinionated, but what is the point of these
> >> flat bar road bikes, a.k.a fitness bikes? I guess they are for people that want a fast street
> >> bike, but are "afraid" of the drop style bars?
> >>
> > it is much more difficult to brake using drop style bars
>
>
> Why would you say that? I think you either aren't fitted properly, or simply haven't learned how
> to use brakes on drop bars.

So you have to learn how to use them properly. Isn't that an indication of it being more difficult?

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 18 May 2003 04:00:18 -0400, W K wrote:

>> Why would you say that? I think you either aren't fitted properly, or simply haven't learned how
>> to use brakes on drop bars.
>
> So you have to learn how to use them properly. Isn't that an indication of it being more
> difficult?

No. Peeing in the toilet isn't "more difficult" but you need to learn how to do that, too.

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 17 May 2003 18:25:02 -0400, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

>> > Drop bars can stoppie easily but that's b/c your CoG is so much farther forward.
>>
>> You can achieve exactly the same riding position with either type of bar. What can you possibly
>> be thinking of?
>
> Not with the same frame/wheel geometry and same stem. To reach the brakes on a drop bar (from the
> top), you have to reach 10 cm further. Even further if you'er in the drops.

I cannot imagine what kind of setup you have if you think you need to reach five inches farther to
get to the brakes with drops than MTB. When I ride, I generally have my hands on the brake hoods,
with my fingers wrapped over the top of the brake lever. I can lock both brakes with fingertip
pressure on top of the brake lever. Where'd the 5 extra inches come from?

> Road bars tend to be lower than MTB bars, not to mention that a fewer percentage of MTB riders run
> their stems upside down.

Not that I've ever seen. Generally, I see MTB bars at least as low as drop bars, and seldom as high,
except on hybrids and comfort bikes.

>
> If you run your road stem like apehangers, I can see how you might be right.

Would you consider anywhere from even with seat height to two inches below seat height to be
"apehanger"?