M
Mbrick
Guest
Which of the three flight deck computers should I purchases for a new 9 speed Dura ace. ??
--
mike
--
mike
- Status
A
Andrew Morris
Guest
It's more along the lines of which wiring kit you should buy....
"mbrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Which of the three flight deck computers should I purchases for a new 9 speed Dura ace. ??
>
> --
> mike
"mbrick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Which of the three flight deck computers should I purchases for a new 9 speed Dura ace. ??
>
> --
> mike
I use the 6501 wireless model and am extremely impressed with it. It seems to be very reliable and accurate.
The fact that Shimano is coming out with a 10-speed D-A gruppo got me thinking about the Flight Deck, and the fact that they probably need to upgrade it in order to accommodate the added cog on the gear indicator. Guys, correct me if I'm wrong about this (not that I need to encourage you), but I don't think the current 6501 can deal with a 10th cog. Maybe this will be an opportunity for Shimano to reorganize the Flight Deck menus, add a better auto-start feature, and rewrite the manual in something other than gibberish.
- Dennis in Seattle
The distance and time functions would all still work but the signals from the shifters would certainly be different so who knows what it would do with any of the functions that require current gear input. It definitely can't accommodate 10 gears. It's possible it would work great on 9 of the 10 gears; it's possible it wouldn't work on any of them.
My guess is Shimano didn't figure it would be necessary to make the 10-speed DA backwards compatible with 9-speed Flight Decks. Even the wireless transmitter might not work because it transmits the signal to the computer mount, not directly to the computer head, so if they change the head it might require a new mount too.
J
Jasper Janssen
Guest
On 24 Jun 2003 02:00:30 +0950, DiabloScott <[email protected]> wrote:
>My guess is Shimano didn't figure it would be necessary to make the 10-speed DA backwards
>compatible with 9-speed Flight Decks. Even the wireless transmitter might not work because it
>transmits the signal to the computer mount, not directly to the computer head, so if they change
>the head it might require a new mount too.
My guess is that they will make it backwards compatible. I'm not entirely sure on how they transmit
gear info from the levers, but I'm pretty sure it's not straight 9-gears-is-9-wires-plus-1-common,
and under any other system, the difference between signalling 9s and 10s should be trivial. Keep in
mind that 10sp may be DA-only for the model year now, but it *will* trickle down, and it's just much
cheaper to use the same system with an extension than make a completely new one. For one thing, as
you say, it allows you to use the same base -- tooling up for a new version of that is not trivial.
Also, as it is now, a 9sp head will work with 8s and
7s. If you want to keep that convenience, the new 10sp head will need to work with 9s and 8s as
well. Having lots of different versions of the same thing only pays if volume is big enough to
allow you to make different versions of them marketingwise: DA versus 105 etc.
I suppose DA 10s might not be flightdeck compatible at all. After all, it does add weight, even when
you don't use the functionality. But when all's said and done, in the end, Shimano has plenty of
reasons to make the flightdecks vaguely compatible in the sense that 10s FlightDecks most likely
will work with smaller cassettes/shifters (though not necessarily the old 9s decks working with 10s
sets), and to keep the ancillary hardware the same.
Jasper
>My guess is Shimano didn't figure it would be necessary to make the 10-speed DA backwards
>compatible with 9-speed Flight Decks. Even the wireless transmitter might not work because it
>transmits the signal to the computer mount, not directly to the computer head, so if they change
>the head it might require a new mount too.
My guess is that they will make it backwards compatible. I'm not entirely sure on how they transmit
gear info from the levers, but I'm pretty sure it's not straight 9-gears-is-9-wires-plus-1-common,
and under any other system, the difference between signalling 9s and 10s should be trivial. Keep in
mind that 10sp may be DA-only for the model year now, but it *will* trickle down, and it's just much
cheaper to use the same system with an extension than make a completely new one. For one thing, as
you say, it allows you to use the same base -- tooling up for a new version of that is not trivial.
Also, as it is now, a 9sp head will work with 8s and
7s. If you want to keep that convenience, the new 10sp head will need to work with 9s and 8s as
well. Having lots of different versions of the same thing only pays if volume is big enough to
allow you to make different versions of them marketingwise: DA versus 105 etc.
I suppose DA 10s might not be flightdeck compatible at all. After all, it does add weight, even when
you don't use the functionality. But when all's said and done, in the end, Shimano has plenty of
reasons to make the flightdecks vaguely compatible in the sense that 10s FlightDecks most likely
will work with smaller cassettes/shifters (though not necessarily the old 9s decks working with 10s
sets), and to keep the ancillary hardware the same.
Jasper
All good points, but they're breaking a lot of conventions with DA-10 so they may have some radical changes in mind for Flight Deck as well. They've already obsoleted the first generation of Flight Decks that had both buttons on the same hood. It would certainly be easy enough for them to make a 10-speed Flight Deck compatible with 9-speed shifters but Shimano might want to make changes in the overall design that would conflict with the compatibility goal; I would contend now is the time they'll want to make those kinds of major changes since they're making similar choices with bottom brackets, cassette spacing, etc. and they'll be able to count on the marketing hype to sell newer, more expensive cyclocomputers (maybe with altimeter function and integrated heart rate?)
For example if the designers want to change the little buttons on the chips that go under the brake hoods (current model buttons can be a little hard to find) then they may have to decide whether it's worth sacrificing backward compatibility for a better design (plates that don't fit in the old levers). The new improved 10-speed computer could then be used on the future 10-speed Ultegra and 105 groups.
Interesting point on how the gear info is transmitted - I assumed it was some kind of strain gauge.
J
Jasper Janssen
Guest
On 24 Jun 2003 06:31:11 +0950, DiabloScott <[email protected]> wrote:
>All good points, but they're breaking a lot of conventions with DA-10 so they may have some radical
>changes in mind for Flight Deck as well.
Well, it's always possible. Planned obsolescence happens whenever it's deemed profitable, and has
little to do with technical considerations.
>rate?) For example if the designers want to change the little buttons on the chips that go under
>the brake hoods (current model buttons can be a little hard to find) then they may have to decide
>whether it's worth sacrificing backward compatibility for a better design (plates that don't fit in
>the old levers).
Though that doesn't necessarily mean changing the elctrical specs.
>The new improved 10-speed computer could then be used on the future 10-speed Ultegra and 105
>groups. Interesting point on how the gear info is transmitted - I assumed it was some kind of
>strain gauge.
Well, I don't actually have one, but looking at the PDF on Shimano's site the cable from the lever
to the head is clearly electrical (as it has to be for reliable indexing even with a removable head
-- plus it's a lot cheaper, you need to convert to electrical somewhere anyway). I'm not 100% sure
how those plates on the levers connect to the levers, though. That might be mechanical (which would
make sense, then there wouldn't be any electronics in flightdeckless shifters to break, and less
chance of a newly installed flight deck on an older system not working due to breakage), or it might
be electrical. I can't really see very well. It might even be electrical in the simple
close-one-switch-in-each-position way, which the plate would probably convert to a more amenable 1
or 2 wire interface, but I don't think it is as the right shifter seems to have the same amount of
contacts there as the left.
http://www.shimano-europe.com/cycling/phpimages/product/exp_view/SM-6501.pdf
It looks like 4 electrical spring contacts between the plate and the left shifter., and same for
the right.
Jasper
>All good points, but they're breaking a lot of conventions with DA-10 so they may have some radical
>changes in mind for Flight Deck as well.
Well, it's always possible. Planned obsolescence happens whenever it's deemed profitable, and has
little to do with technical considerations.
>rate?) For example if the designers want to change the little buttons on the chips that go under
>the brake hoods (current model buttons can be a little hard to find) then they may have to decide
>whether it's worth sacrificing backward compatibility for a better design (plates that don't fit in
>the old levers).
Though that doesn't necessarily mean changing the elctrical specs.
>The new improved 10-speed computer could then be used on the future 10-speed Ultegra and 105
>groups. Interesting point on how the gear info is transmitted - I assumed it was some kind of
>strain gauge.
Well, I don't actually have one, but looking at the PDF on Shimano's site the cable from the lever
to the head is clearly electrical (as it has to be for reliable indexing even with a removable head
-- plus it's a lot cheaper, you need to convert to electrical somewhere anyway). I'm not 100% sure
how those plates on the levers connect to the levers, though. That might be mechanical (which would
make sense, then there wouldn't be any electronics in flightdeckless shifters to break, and less
chance of a newly installed flight deck on an older system not working due to breakage), or it might
be electrical. I can't really see very well. It might even be electrical in the simple
close-one-switch-in-each-position way, which the plate would probably convert to a more amenable 1
or 2 wire interface, but I don't think it is as the right shifter seems to have the same amount of
contacts there as the left.
http://www.shimano-europe.com/cycling/phpimages/product/exp_view/SM-6501.pdf
It looks like 4 electrical spring contacts between the plate and the left shifter., and same for
the right.
Jasper
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