Flip chain: double life

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Wayne Pein, Feb 24, 2004.

  1. Wayne Pein

    Wayne Pein Guest

    from velonews.com

    Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

    Any credence to this crud?

    Wayne
     
    Tags:


  2. Ken

    Ken Guest

    Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life."

    If that is true, you can probably increase chain life even more by regularly flipping your chain
    over. People who clean their chain by removing it and soaking it (and reinstalling it randomly one
    way or the other) have been doing this for years.
     
  3. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > from velonews.com
    >
    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    >
    > Any credence to this crud?

    Flipping it doesn't change the pitch, and that's the only important thing.
     
  4. > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

    I don't understand this. We've long-ago determined that chains don't stretch as in the metal
    elongating; rather, the internal parts of the chain wear, producing slack that elongates the chain
    as a whole. What is it about this wear that would be changed by flipping the chain?

    At its simplest, a chain displays its wear when you lay it out on a table and measure its length.
    Obviously, it doesn't matter which side you lay it on, the length is the same. So if flipping a
    chain over improves chain life, there's an implication that an elongated chain is not the only thing
    affecting performance.

    There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement, since flipping a chain over, half-way through
    its wear cycle, should at best allow it to go 1.5 times normal life (since in its flipped-over
    state, you can't do better than it would starting from new, unless flipping it somehow rejuvenates
    it into something better than new!).

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

    "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > from velonews.com
    >
    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    >
    > Any credence to this crud?
    >
    > Wayne
     
  5. Harris

    Harris Guest

    Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
    > from velonews.com

    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

    Wayne Stetina said that??!! Shimano engineers discovered this by accident? Wow! I guess April 1st is
    closer than I thought!

    Art Harris
     
  6. What threw me in Wayne's statement, besides "double your chain life" is: " In other words, your
    chain will now be turned inside out."??? -tom

    "Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I don't understand this. We've long-ago determined that chains don't stretch as in the metal
    > elongating; rather, the internal parts of the
    chain
    > wear, producing slack that elongates the chain as a whole. What is it
    about
    > this wear that would be changed by flipping the chain?
    >
    > At its simplest, a chain displays its wear when you lay it out on a table and measure its length.
    > Obviously, it doesn't matter which side you lay
    it
    > on, the length is the same. So if flipping a chain over improves chain life, there's an
    > implication that an elongated chain is not the only thing affecting performance.
    >
    > There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement, since flipping a
    chain
    > over, half-way through its wear cycle, should at best allow it to go 1.5 times normal life (since
    > in its flipped-over state, you can't do better
    than
    > it would starting from new, unless flipping it somehow rejuvenates it into something better
    > than new!).
    >
    > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com
    >
    >
    > "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > from velonews.com
    > >
    > > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway
    > > worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your
    > > chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears,
    > > and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says
    > > that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    > >
    > > Any credence to this crud?
    > >
    > > Wayne
    >
     
  7. O Wtf

    O Wtf Guest

    "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > from velonews.com
    >
    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    >
    > Any credence to this crud?
    >
    > Wayne
    >
    Good example why one should not believe all that is in print. My chain rollers turn. My derailleur
    "laterally bends the chain the opposite direction" already, since I shift through the gears in both
    directions. Chains don't "stretch" anyway. They elongate due to wear on the rivets mostly.

    Turning the chain around and allowing the non-worn side of the rivets to wear will double the
    service life. (see below)



    Gotcha! It won't really.

    Cal
     
  8. O Wtf

    O Wtf Guest

    "Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > from velonews.com
    >
    > > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway
    > > worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your
    > > chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears,
    > > and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says
    > > that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    >
    > Wayne Stetina said that??!! Shimano engineers discovered this by accident? Wow! I guess April 1st
    > is closer than I thought!
    >
    > Art Harris

    Party-pooper.

    Cal
     
  9. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > from velonews.com
    >
    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    >
    > Any credence to this crud?
    >
    > Wayne

    I was skeptical and about to post some worthless, joking crap like I always do but then I began to
    think about it and it does make sense. See, the wear really occurs as the chain bends over the top
    of the cassette cog and then over the top of the chainring. THis is where all the stress is. If you
    flip your chain over, these same two spots are using the reverse side of the chain. They would share
    some of the worn area but for the most part fresh chain is being used. Yes, I believe Wayne @
    Shimano has a valid point, Wayne.

    Hmm, I guess this means that I've tossed several perfectly good chains.

    Dave
     
  10. Tad Borek

    Tad Borek Guest

    Wayne Pein wrote:
    > from velonews.com
    >
    > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    > out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    > now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    > derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    > Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

    That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies to tires. Unless you ride
    backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're only wearing out the fronts of your tires.

    I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn out, and I am able to ride
    twice as long.

    I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to move the drivetrain to the
    left side and that of course is not possible.

    -T.Borek, BSME
     
  11. carlfogel

    carlfogel New Member

    Joined:
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    Dear Wayne,

    Oh, what a fool I've been!

    By heavens, next time that I measure my
    chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring
    it from the other end.

    Carl Fogel
     
  12. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Wayne Pein wrote:
    > > from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it
    > > is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In
    > > other words, your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
    > > contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the
    opposite
    > > direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    > > Any credence to this crud? Wayne
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Wayne,
    >
    > Oh, what a fool I've been!
    >
    > By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring it from
    > the other end.
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each side
    wrap around a cylinder.

    Dave
     
  13. carlfogel

    carlfogel New Member

    Joined:
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    Dear Dave,

    I could measure no difference when I looped
    my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%)
    both ways around the base of a 36-inch
    circumference cable drum on a flat surface.

    The marks made opposite the center of the
    start and finish pins still matched as closely
    as I could align them.

    This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.

    It seems unlikely that any difference in length
    could be observed by wrapping the chain around
    gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch apart,
    even during wear.

    Carl Fogel
     
  14. meb

    meb New Member

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    0
    carlfogel said:

    "This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll."

    Maybe with an poorly oiled chain they don't roll.
    Anyone got a neglected chain they can measure both ways?

    The pins don't roll, so one would expect more wear on one side.
    Since the pins are made of harder materials though, it would seem the chain has long since passed its useful life before measurable differences appear.
     
  15. carlfogel

    carlfogel New Member

    Joined:
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    Dear Meb,

    A chain with any rollers that fail to roll under the
    urging of your finger-tip is presumably a chain
    that needs to be replaced.

    Worn rollers roll more easily, not less--indeed,
    they rattle.

    It would seem hopeless to try to extend the life
    of a chain whose rollers are rusted solid by flipping
    it, reversing it, cleaning it, or praying to strange gods.

    Carl Fogel
     
  16. meb

    meb New Member

    Joined:
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    0
    Carl Fogel said:

    "A chain with any rollers that fail to roll under the
    urging of your finger-tip is presumably a chain
    that needs to be replaced."

    Definitely-but rusty chains exist on rideable bikes.

    "Worn rollers roll more easily, not less"

    Not necessarily under tension, and particularly if rusty or dirty.

    "--indeed, they rattle." Yep.

    "It would seem hopeless to try to extend the life
    of a chain whose rollers are rusted solid by flipping
    it, reversing it, cleaning it, or praying to strange gods."

    The OP's chain guru seems to differ on all counts.

    Since we've exhausted practical scenarios, let's see if there is a grain of validity in some scenario of dubious practicallity before we dismiss the hypothesis as bunk.
    ;)
     
  17. Jim Adney

    Jim Adney Guest

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:16:41 GMT Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:

    >from velonews.com
    >
    >Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
    >out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
    >now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
    >derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
    >Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.

    Sounds pretty unlikely to me. The wear in a bike chain does not occur where the sprocket teeth
    contact it.

    It occurs between the rivets and the bushings inside, as a result of the tension in the chainwhile
    the chain is bending. While the bending would be in different directions, leading to slight offset
    in the wear patch, I would expect the difference to be slight, and certainly not a factor of 2.

    -
    -----------------------------------------------
    Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
    -----------------------------------------------
     
  18. Andre

    Andre Guest

    I agree. I suspect if you flip the chain, the non-worn side of the rivets will, in effect, "tighten"
    the chain back to new length (12 inches rivet to rivet).

    --
    --------------------------
    Andre Charlebois BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+ webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick www.TriNB.com "onefred"
    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Wayne Pein wrote:
    > > > from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when
    > > > it is only halfway worn out and flip it over," he says, "you
    will
    > > > double your chain life." In other words, your chain will now be
    turned
    > > > inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the
    gears,
    > > > and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the
    > opposite
    > > > direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
    > > > Any credence to this crud? Wayne
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Dear Wayne,
    > >
    > > Oh, what a fool I've been!
    > >
    > > By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn out, I'll try measuring it
    > > from the other end.
    > >
    > > Carl Fogel
    >
    > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each side
    > wrap around a cylinder.
    >
    > Dave
     
  19. MikeJ-<< There's also a logical problem in Wayne's statement.

    Careful or you won't get a Xmas card from shimano USA next year. >><BR><BR>

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  20. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Onefred wrote:
    > > "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:XUS_-
    > >
    [email protected]:[email protected]
    > > etserver.com...
    > > > Wayne Pein wrote:
    > > > > from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says,
    "If
    > > > > you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn out and flip
    it
    > > > > over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other
    words,
    > > > > your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact
    > > > > the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the
    > > opposite
    > > > > direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by
    > > > > accident. Any credence to this crud? Wayne
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Dear Wayne,
    > > >
    > > > Oh, what a fool I've been!
    > > >
    > > > By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn
    out,
    > > > I'll try measuring it from the other end.
    > > >
    > > > Carl Fogel
    > > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each
    > > side wrap around a cylinder. Dave
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Dave,
    >
    > I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%) both ways
    > around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable drum on a flat surface.
    >
    > The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still matched as closely as I
    > could align them.
    >
    > This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.
    >
    > It seems unlikely that any difference in length could be observed by wrapping the chain around
    > gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch apart, even during wear.
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    But Carl, Wayne never said to use a badly worn chain, only one that's "halfway" worn. To me this
    means a slightly worn chain that is still quite useable. Using a badly worn chain I don't doubt
    your findings.

    Dave
     
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