Flip chain: double life

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:10:45 GMT, meb <[email protected]>
may have said:

>carlfogel said:
>
>"This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll."
>
>Maybe with an poorly oiled chain they don't roll. Anyone got a neglected chain they can measure
>both ways?

As a matter of fact, there's a bike in the salvage pile with a neglected chain. It had no master
link, so I suspect the chain had never been off until just now. It measured 1.1mm longer than a
brand new chain between the two most widely separated links my calipers could reach. Flipping it
over produced the exact same result.

>The pins don't roll, so one would expect more wear on one side.

Why? There is *no significant tension* on the part of the chain that is on the curve of the
sprockets. Wear will occur where there is high load or *unlubricated* motion. If the chain is
reasonably well lubed, the flexing of the chain as it goes around the sprockets should produce
little or no wear. All of the tension of pedalling is transmitted along the top *straight* run of
the chain between the tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth
delivering the load at the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the chain is flipped, the load is on
the same place on each link and pin.

(I will note that there is actually a slight skewing to the inside on the wear due to the fact that
as the sprockets turn, the load may be on a pin whose link has not yet fully rotated into alignment
with the top run...but this *small* skewing is not enough to make a flipped chain "fit like new"
when it was worn out as measured.)

>Since the pins are made of harder materials though, it would seem the chain has long since passed
>its useful life before measurable differences appear.

The wear is hard to measure at a single link, but that's why it's measured for aggregate total over
a long section. I suspect that if the originator of the topic was checking for chain lift
availability at the front of the chainring as a (false) measure of chain wear, there may have
appeared to be a difference when the chain was first flipped. I also suspect that as soon as the
chain was ridden a distance, driving the dirt out of the links, the difference would have vanished.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[David Damerell]

Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
>produce little or no wear. All of the tension of pedalling is transmitted along the top *straight*
>run of the chain between the tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth
>delivering the load at the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the chain is flipped, the load is on
>the same place on each link and pin.

Obviously the answer is some sort of mechanism that gradually replaces this run of chain with the
fresh bottom run. Perhaps it could propel the bicycle as well?
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!

 

[John Dacey]

"Deficit omne quod nascitur." - Quintilian
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:22:36 GMT, Tad Borek <[email protected]>
wrote:

>That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies to tires. Unless you ride
>backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're only wearing out the fronts of your tires.
>
>I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn out, and I am able to ride
>twice as long.
>
>I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to move the drivetrain to the
>left side and that of course is not possible.

What's facetious for one can be factual for another. The tires of track racers wear at a much-
accelerated rate on their right sides because of velodrome banking. Dual-threaded rear track hubs
came not so much to give oxymoronic gear options to fixed-gear road riders; but rather to allow
track racers to reverse the direction of their wheels and thereby extend the useful life of their
tires without having to remove and readhere an assymetrically worn tubular tire to its rim.
-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalogue of track
equipment: eighth year online. http://www.businesscycles.com

 

[G.Daniels]

in the furture all cyclists (and others) will have an embedded chip
with eternal truths thereon.
One will read out into the synapses:
A) machinery is engineered to have parallel bearing surfaces. all wear is uneven. bearing
surfaces entropy.
B) bearing surfaces seat in seat in seat in seat in. thus reducing wear. a gift from Zeuss.
C)if the chain is turned around, then the mechanic lays an egg. until all the surfaces readjust to
the new direction. wearing as they go.

the canoeists get a chip that sez "this way up."

 

[Werehatrack]

On 25 Feb 2004 16:28:48 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
<[email protected]> may have said:

>Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>produce little or no wear. All of the tension of pedalling is transmitted along the top *straight*
>>run of the chain between the tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth
>>delivering the load at the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the chain is flipped, the load is
>>on the same place on each link and pin.
>
>Obviously the answer is some sort of mechanism that gradually replaces this run of chain with the
>fresh bottom run. Perhaps it could propel the bicycle as well?

Migod, what a concept! A continuously recycling system! No, wait, then it would all wear out
at once...

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Tad Borek]

John Dacey wrote:
> What's facetious for one can be factual for another. The tires of track racers wear at a much-
> accelerated rate on their right sides because of velodrome banking. Dual-threaded rear track hubs
> came not so much to give oxymoronic gear options to fixed-gear road riders; but rather to allow
> track racers to reverse the direction of their wheels and thereby extend the useful life of their
> tires without having to remove and readhere an assymetrically worn tubular tire to its rim.

OK so that's reason #5 I'm glad for ordering that PW flip-flop hub from you...at least until Hellyer
adopts a rule to reverse the direction of travel every other week. =)

-Tad
ps the 32's in the mail

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Werehatrack <[email protected]> writes:

>>> All of the tension of pedalling is transmitted along the top *straight* run of the chain between
>>> the tooth bearing the load at the top of the rear sprocket and the tooth delivering the load at
>>> the chainwheel. Regardless of which way the chain is flipped, the load is on the same place on
>>> each link and pin.

>> Obviously the answer is some sort of mechanism that gradually replaces this run of chain with the
>> fresh bottom run. Perhaps it could propel the bicycle as well?

> Migod, what a concept! A continuously recycling system! No, wait, then it would all wear out
> at once...

Ounds like the Deacon's Masterpiece:

http://www.williamson-labs.com/one-hoss-shay.htm

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Christopher Bri]

After reading this discussion, I broke my chain, turned it around 180 degrees on one side of
the break, and reconnected it. I did this so that the twist is on the bottom run, so it is not
in tension.

Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I expect it will last forever. Is this true?

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: [email protected] PGP: finger [email protected] Web: www.colohan.com Phone:
(412)268-4751

 

[DiabloScott]

Originally posted by Christopher Bri
After reading this discussion, I broke my chain, turned it around 180 degrees on one side of
the break, and reconnected it. I did this so that the twist is on the bottom run, so it is not
in tension.

Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I expect it will last forever. Is this true?

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: [email protected] PGP: finger [email protected] Web: www.colohan.com Phone:
(412)268-4751

Of course not. For one chain revolution the rollers will be getting farther apart, but since the chain will be inverted on the next revolution the teeth will be pushing the rollers in the opposite direction (as one looks at it) and the rollers will get closer together.

On second thought - yes, you're right!

 

[Tim McNamara]

Ken <[email protected]> writes:

> Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> > Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway
> > worn out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life."
>
> If that is true, you can probably increase chain life even more by regularly flipping your chain
> over. People who clean their chain by removing it and soaking it (and reinstalling it randomly one
> way or the other) have been doing this for years.

It's not true. And if you think about it for a minute or two, you will realize why it could
not be true.

 

[Carl Fogel]

"onefred" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Onefred wrote:
> > > "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:XUS_-
> > >
> [email protected]:[email protected]
> > > etserver.com...
> > > > Wayne Pein wrote:
> > > > > from velonews.com Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says,
> "If
> > > > > you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn out and flip
> it
> > > > > over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other
> words,
> > > > > your chain will now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now
> > > > > contact the gears, and the derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the
> opposite
> > > > > direction. Stetina says that Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by
> > > > > accident. Any credence to this crud? Wayne
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Wayne,
> > > >
> > > > Oh, what a fool I've been!
> > > >
> > > > By heavens, next time that I measure my chain to see if it's worn
> out,
> > > > I'll try measuring it from the other end.
> > > >
> > > > Carl Fogel
> > > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far
> > > each side wrap around a cylinder. Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dave,
> >
> > I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%) both ways
> > around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable drum on a flat surface.
> >
> > The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still matched as closely as I
> > could align them.
> >
> > This is unsurprising. Rollers presumably roll.
> >
> > It seems unlikely that any difference in length could be observed by wrapping the chain around
> > gears, since the gear teeth remain an inch apart, even during wear.
> >
> > Carl Fogel
>
> But Carl, Wayne never said to use a badly worn chain, only one that's "halfway" worn. To me this
> means a slightly worn chain that is still quite useable. Using a badly worn chain I don't doubt
> your findings.
>
> Dave

Dear Dave,

My guess is that if the strange wear pattern suggested in this thread doesn't show up on a badly
worn chain, then it won't show up on a slightly worn chain, either.

You can test this a fortiori theory by removing your current chain, wrapping it around any large
circular object on a garage floor, and marking where the start and finish pins end up with a fine-
point sharpie. I used a handy cable spool, but a plastic bucket lid will do nicely. Flip the chain
over and see where the pins end up. A chain worn to 1/32" per foot is mildly worn and would be 3/32"
longer than a new chain over 36 links, an easily noticed difference.

I expect that, after flipping, any chain's length will be indistinguishable over a three foot span.
It's necessary to flip and measure the same 36 links, since there are in fact measurable wear
differences between different sections of the same chain.

If I'm wrong, then someone should be able to draw a quick free-hand diagram of either a bushed or
bushingless chain showing an asymmetrical wear pattern that would somehow change a chain's length
(or some more subtle dimension) when curved one way and then reversed.

Here's a link to a chain diagram to get the artists started:

http://www.vikinginternational.com/about.htm

I'd be glad to host any pictures, whether they make sense to me or not--just email me.

Carl Fogel

 

[Rick Onanian]

Somebody wrote:
> > Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I expect it will last forever. Is this true?

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:50:53 GMT, DiabloScott <[email protected]> wrote:
>Of course not. For one chain revolution the rollers will be getting farther apart, but since the
>chain will be inverted on the next revolution the teeth will be pushing the rollers in the opposite
>direction (as one looks at it) and the rollers will get closer together.
>
>On second thought - yes, you're right!

The stress of being so twisted will probably produce copious amounts of wear, likely a different
type of wear than normal, and destroy the chain quickly.

Not so bad, maybe, on a long-run recumbent.
--
Rick Onanian

 

[meb]

Originally posted by Rick Onanian
Somebody wrote:
> > Now that my chain is a Mobius strip, I expect it will last forever. Is this true?

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:50:53 GMT, DiabloScott <[email protected]> wrote:
>Of course not. For one chain revolution the rollers will be getting farther apart, but since the
>chain will be inverted on the next revolution the teeth will be pushing the rollers in the opposite
>direction (as one looks at it) and the rollers will get closer together.
>
>On second thought - yes, you're right!

The stress of being so twisted will probably produce copious amounts of wear, likely a different
type of wear than normal, and destroy the chain quickly.

Not so bad, maybe, on a long-run recumbent.
--
Rick Onanian

Probably add wear to the opposite top/bottom end of sides of the same pin-you're twisting each way.

While on the low tension run, I would imagine twisting a chain on the roll axis would have losses exceed the 1-2W typical of rders.

 

[Stu]

"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> from velonews.com
>
> Wayne Stetina, Shimano's R&D manager, says, "If you remove the chain when it is only halfway worn
> out and flip it over," he says, "you will double your chain life." In other words, your chain will
> now be turned inside out. The other side of the rollers will now contact the gears, and the
> derailleurs will now be laterally bending the chain the opposite direction. Stetina says that
> Shimano engineers discovered this phenomenon quite by accident.
>
> Any credence to this crud?
>
> Wayne
what would work to almost double chain life is to press all of the pins out turn them 180 and press
them back in of course this would only work on cheaper chains sure sounds like a fun any to spend an
afternoon lol

stu

 

[Greg Estep]

"Tad Borek" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn out, and I am able to ride
> twice as long.
>
> I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to move the drivetrain to the
> left side and that of course is not possible.

You could always simply remove and remount the tire. Since you're doubling the tire life you
wouldn't be increasing the labor involved in replacing worn tires, but you would be saving money
on tires!!

Personally, I would never do this because I like the thrill of buying rubber(s).

Yeah, yeah, I know. This is a family group.

--
Greg Estep

 

[Greg Estep]

"carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Onefred wrote:
> > "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:XUS_-
> >
[email protected]:[email protected]
> > etserver.com...

> > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far each
> > side wrap around a cylinder. Dave

> I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%) both ways
> around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable drum on a flat surface.
>
> The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still matched as closely as I
> could align them.

Are you sure that the chain lived its entire life in a single orientation? Maybe it was flipped,
possibly inadvertently, during some maintenance procedure. If you aren't sure, then you may have
introduced an invalid point into the discussion.

BTW, just to be clear, I have no belief that flipping the chain has any effect that even remotely
approximates doubling its life.

--
Greg Estep
<see headers for anti-spammed email address

 

[Chris Zacho "Th]

From: [email protected] (Tad=A0Borek)

>That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies to tires. Unless you ride
>backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're only wearing out the fronts of your tires.

>I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn out, and I am able to ride
>twice as long.

>I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to move the drivetrain to the
>left side and that of course is not possible.

>-T.Borek, BSME

Hey, I could double the life of my shorts that way too, then, couldn't I?

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

 

[Steven Gee]

The contact patch of a tire at speed on a velodrome, say 28 deg, is very much perpendicular. One
exception to that would be slow speed riding on the bankings, match sprinters when they are
jockeying for position at low speeds and doing track stnds.. The purpose of the banking is to allow
the rider to stay perpendicular to the surface thus allowing a higher speed through the turn. I
would argue that there would be less wear on the sides as compared to a crit tire where there would
be leaning into th eturns relative to the road surface. I was not a match sprinter. In my days as a
trackie, T-Towne pro-am, I never noticed any different wear patterns on one particular side of the
tire. I did wear through many Clement Pista tires.

As far as the reversible hubs, they are to allow for a quick gear change. A different size sprocket
would be on the other side. I do not remember many riders with two sprockets on.

Steve

John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Deficit omne quod nascitur." - Quintilian On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:22:36 GMT, Tad Borek
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >That is 100.0% correct about the rollers, and the same principle applies to tires. Unless you
> >ride backwards frequently, as on a unicycle, you're only wearing out the fronts of your tires.
> >
> >I flip my front wheel around when the tire appears to be halfway worn out, and I am able to ride
> >twice as long.
> >
> >I would flip the rear as well but hey I'm not stupid - I would need to move the drivetrain to the
> >left side and that of course is not possible.
>
> What's facetious for one can be factual for another. The tires of track racers wear at a much-
> accelerated rate on their right sides because of velodrome banking. Dual-threaded rear track hubs
> came not so much to give oxymoronic gear options to fixed-gear road riders; but rather to allow
> track racers to reverse the direction of their wheels and thereby extend the useful life of their
> tires without having to remove and readhere an assymetrically worn tubular tire to its rim.
> -------------------------------
> John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalogue of track
> equipment: eighth year online. http://www.businesscycles.com

 

[Carl Fogel]

"Greg Estep" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Onefred wrote:
> > > "carlfogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:XUS_-
> > >
> [email protected]:[email protected]
> > > etserver.com...
>
> > > It would be interesting to see if the chain measures different lengths by seeing how far
> > > each side wrap around a cylinder. Dave
>
> > I could measure no difference when I looped my handy badly worn chain (about 1.4%) both ways
> > around the base of a 36-inch circumference cable drum on a flat surface.
> >
> > The marks made opposite the center of the start and finish pins still matched as closely as I
> > could align them.
>
> Are you sure that the chain lived its entire life in a single orientation? Maybe it was flipped,
> possibly inadvertently, during some maintenance procedure. If you aren't sure, then you may have
> introduced an invalid point into the discussion.
>
> BTW, just to be clear, I have no belief that flipping the chain has any effect that even remotely
> approximates doubling its life.

Dear Greg,

You raise a good question, so it really doesn't matter what your position is. (Hell, it wouldn't
matter if it were a bad question.) I appreciate your interest and am only sorry that so many of us
feel obliged to bend over backwards for fear of nitwits feeling offended.

(BTW, just to be clear, I'm a nitwit, but like to think that I don't take offense as easily as some.
I may suspect that chains don't care whether they're flipped, but I'm positive that they don't give
a damn whether anyone on rec.bicycles.tech pouts or feels offended.)

That said, no, my worn chain was never flipped. Flipping would have required removal, which occurred
only once, at the end of its life.

I'm a pathetic believer in WD40 and paper towels for cleaning, followed by 85-130w gear oil, and
loathe both chain-breaking and master-links in all their simple, intuitive, easy-to-use forms.

My policy concerning chains resembles that of the Catholic Church (supposedly) and marriage. Once
the ends of my chain are joined, it takes either death or a papal annulment to separate them again--
and I'm not a member of the Kennedy family.

My strait-laced attitude toward chains may be an over-reaction to my casual, sinful attitude toward
inner tubes, which would make Bill Clinton blush. Once punctured, my inner tubes are thrown away
like soiled gloves.

Blathering happily like this, it occurs to me that perhaps a chain could be flipped without removal,
although I've never tried to do so.

There might be enough play in all the links to invert a worn chain like a belt or rubber band, if
you worked carefully and unscrewed the front and rear derailleur cages.

Hmm . . . sounds like an amusing experiment to try in a year or two when my current chain goes.

Carl Fogel

P.S. Next year? Bah! I just tried it on the workbench with my worn chain. Yes, you can invert a
badly worn chain with its open ends wired together, but it isn't easy--you need the whole
length of the chain free. This is the kind of important discovery that only rec.bicycles.tech
encourages.

C.F.

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Carl Fogel writes:

> That said, no, my worn chain was never flipped. Flipping would have required removal, which
> occurred only once, at the end of its life.

> I'm a pathetic believer in WD40 and paper towels for cleaning, followed by 85-130w gear oil, and
> loathe both chain-breaking and master-links in all their simple, intuitive, easy-to-use forms.

I think you should consider the reasons given in the FAQ for taking the chain off the bicycle
to clean it:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html

> My policy concerning chains resembles that of the Catholic Church (supposedly) and marriage. Once
> the ends of my chain are joined, it takes either death or a papal annulment to separate them again--
> and I'm not a member of the Kennedy family.

> My strait-laced attitude toward chains may be an over-reaction to my casual, sinful attitude
> toward inner tubes, which would make Bill Clinton blush. Once punctured, my inner tubes are thrown
> away like soiled gloves.

> Blathering happily like this, it occurs to me that perhaps a chain could be flipped without
> removal, although I've never tried to do so.

You may want to change religions with respect to bicycle chains.

> There might be enough play in all the links to invert a worn chain like a belt or rubber band, if
> you worked carefully and unscrewed the front and rear derailleur cages.

That is a classic in topology. A closed roller chain defies turning defies turning inside out even
off the bicycle.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]