Flyer (Question)

Discussion in 'Doping in Cycling' started by Lonnie Utah, Jun 14, 2005.

  1. Lonnie Utah

    Lonnie Utah Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dude,

    You've got some issues with this doping thing. What's your deal (background)? I checked out your posts and you seem to be a one man, anti-doping campaign. Is it REALLY as bad as you make it out to be? If so where's your "proof"? With the testing the I know pro riders go through, I just can't believe it is as bad as you make it out to be. I just don't get it (maybe I'm naive). Why the emotion (I was going to use "anger" but thought that was too strong a word). I'm not trying to flame you, I'm trying to figure out what drives you to post what you do. Why should I beleive you?

    Me, I'm a mid-30's recreational rider. Never even through about racing or dope.....

    As I said, I'm not trying to get into a flame war, I would just like a little more "proof" when you post "acusitory" statements. That might win you a few more points...

    L
     
    Tags:


  2. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fellow Cowboy:

    Study the issue. I have 'understated the case".

    Meet, ride and race with retired professionals and para-professional riders. Ask them.

    You be absolutely floored to learn the news.

    Testing is not a deterent in any way, shape or fashion. Rather, it is used as a PR tool so that the public can believe in fairytales and the show can go on. The most important drugs are still undetectable.

    When Greg Lemond said way back in 1993 that pro-cycling has become 'too medical' he was not kidding around.

    During Greg's time doping was out-of-control (steroids, stimulants, corticosterids, IV feeds of lord know what)

    But today-----Cancer recovery drugs, muscular dystrophy drugs, anemia, renal failure, insulin boosters, along with testosterone/clomid and many other hormones have become a medical requirement to train for a Grand Tour. Not to mention the blood transfusions of HBOCs and other illegal products.

    No other other sport trauma dopes with such intensity as does cycling. The demands of stage racing are huge, and doping can make all the difference in the world.

    No hope without the dope.

    Today's Tour de France is truly a phamaceutical showcase of research and trauma medicine.

    Also, no other fraud is as emotional as this one. When I point out the obvious, I am often attacked with ad hominem rants w/o basis while other people are in utter denial of what they actually see on an TV broadcast. Their perception is their reality.

    Fraud, deception, and toxic waste of great athletes, discarded lives and silly memories of gladiator victories. Billions are spent by advertisers to shape these false images and themes. (to sell product)

    It's an issue that hits all the nerves.

    It's hard to imagine someone accepting the deaths of Pantani (34), Zanetti (32) , Jeminez (32), Sermon (21) , Vermaut (28), Pauwels (22), Salanson (23), Rusconi (24), Zinoviev (43), Zanoli (35) et al.... without emotion.

    Cycling is all about passion, but it appears to have become a medical research life and death struggle for the pros.

    Thanks for asking.
     
  3. snyper0311

    snyper0311 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    261
    Likes Received:
    0
    Flyer,
    I'm with Lonnie Utah on this topic. He asked you a question and you gave him a run around answer. No real proof in ANY of your posts. When asked for examples, you give off information that you have read, but nothing firm.

    I would love to see your "proof", it would really help make sence of your posts, but you NEVER have, and probobly never will give anything concrete.

    Something that can be proven is the fact that the lists you give as to cyclists that have died due to doping is false. Not one of the death certificates for these guys lists EPO/doping or performance enhancers as the DIRECT cause of death, not even associated with or due to.

    Another claim you have is that cycling has turned to doping for commercial profit. I bet the shoes on your feet are Nike and ALL of the cloths on your back are "Brand Name." The sad truth of society today is that everything is associated to a name. Cycling just uses the "marketability" to promote the sport, as do all other sports.

    Dude, this is not a personal attack against you and your beliefs, it is just a question as to how you can come up with some of your statements. I'd love to hear or see some concrete evidence on doping from you, but right now, you don't provide any of that.
     
  4. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's utter bull. You go back and reread my posts.

    Why cannot you grasp the obvious? Is it really so challenging to see the truth? Is the fog that soupy?

    You have many public admissions on the record:

    Merckx, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Plankaert, Chiotti, Thevenet, Van Der Velde, Laurent, Geminiani, Dotto, Letort, Winnen, Millar, Gaumont, Manzano, Camenzind, Lotz, Zulle, Virenque, Herve, Brochard, Moreau, amongst others---most of these confessions ocurring in retirement except for the Festina boys who cried under oath in a October 2000 Lille Courtroom.

    Then you have the dozens of riders caught by customs agents, housekeepers, and police---not dope controllers:

    Millar, Museeuw, French, Pantani, Stephens, Vandenbroucke, Sassone, Simeoni, et al...

    Then you have the admission of team directors---years later such as in PDM & Festina whereby systematic EPO and other illegal drugs abuse was a standard practice.

    Did you think things changed after 1991 or 1998?

    Then you have a rider dying every 60 days.

    Then you have Tyler Hamilton, Perez, Hawaiin Triathletes going blood doping positive. You have 6 of the top 10 Tour of Guademala riders going EPO positive--you have a 16 year South African going EPO positive. You have the winners of the past 4 years of junior world sprinter going drug positive.

    You have Lance's trainer, Michele Ferrari's conviction.

    You have Sandro Donati dossier and description of Francesco Conconi's corruption at the IOC. (Ferrari's mentor)

    What additional proof do you require? How many more deaths? How many more convictions? How many more disgraces? How many more bi-polar behaviors?

    Tearful confessions of each and every drug addict?

    Guess what fellas, drug addict tend to live in denial which is where many fans prefer to live as well.

    So, let's wake up and smell the IV feeds before the Tour de France throws up another big surprise 'doping scandal'

    More than sufficient proof of widespread doping. Frankly, it's inescapable.

    If you don't believe me---go ask a professional. They know what up with the meds.

    Otherwise accept what corporate advertisers portray as 'clean sport' and buy their products.

    No I do not own Nike stock nor wear their shoes.

    But I am fond of life-science firms.



     
  5. Lonnie Utah

    Lonnie Utah Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    1
    Flyer,

    Thanks for your replies. I won't disagree, as you have obviously put more time into this than I care to, but even if doping is widespread, what about the old adage "innocent until proven guilty."

    Again, I'm not baiting you, I'm simply searching for answers....

    L
     
  6. House

    House Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Flyer has yet to provide one shred of evidence that would be worth anything in a court of law. All he does is provide unproven accusations, a few facts (very few) and an abundance of opinion based on tenuous at best information. he is the biggest coward on this forum, having never answered a question that takes him to task directly or stepped up to a challenge. He is someone out for attention and will say anything to get it. Read through his archives and you will see this. You will also see how, after touting something over and over, he will drop it in the face of reality biting him in the ass. He is merely a lonely attention seeker who claims to love the sport but only rips on it and everyone involved, including any poster on this forum who doesn't agree 100% with him. Look at how often he will bump a thread from months or even a year or so ago with the same thing he already posted in it...just for attention. Read through my archive and his and you will see all of this.
     
  7. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the comments.

    Ah yes, the old 'innocent until proven guilty mantra' sung by commercial franchisees or fans wanting an excuse not to take action against illegal practices. Ironically, the innocent are not protected by this concept. They get sacked, cut, or blackballed.

    It is a 'legal concept' which now serves to protect the guilty, not the innocent. The secret of fraud and after so many deaths, scandals and recent confessions, it hardly matters any more. The truth is out in the public now and all that is left is weak PR attempts at rebuilding sports and it dirty images.

    The public does not need legal definitions to establish the facts. Confessions, deaths, doping tests confirmed, physician convicted, and entire teams gutted tell the story loudly.

    Fraud is a tricky legal concept to establish because, 'intent must be proved'.

    This leaves wide open the possibility of wholesale institutional denial. This is what we have today.

    By isolating each entity within the sporting/advertising food chain (director, rider, doctors, agents, sponsor executives, attorney), each part can deny its' complicity or full knowledge. Much as a submarine has compartments which can be flooded---drowning the men in that space, the greater ship will not sink.

    With doping we have two very recent examples to view as proof that I am 100% correct:

    Example #1:
    Team Cofidis is still racing despite:

    David Millar's initial and vigorous denials, then his Eprex & used syringe discoveries and confession

    Robert Sassone's confession

    Philippe Gaumount's confession and new book.

    Why was Cofidis allowed to race the Pro Tour? How many dopers on one team do we require before a sanction applies?

    Example #2
    Take Team phony Phonak:
    Buliding a team around Alex Zulle--an admitted EPO, corticosteroid, testosterone and hGH abuser and Oscar Camenzind, 1998 World Champion.

    In 2004 Camenzind, Hamilton & Perez all fail drug tests. That's heavy talent btw!

    Instead of suspending the team---the UCI & ProTour federations allowed compartmentizing the problem in order to hold onto the advertising revenues----by sacking the doctor, the director, Hamilton, Perez and Camezind retired. A phony face left.

    Now Floyd Landis and Santiago Botero step up and Phoank continues on w/o a revenue blip.

    Advertising revenues are at the core of the business and the doping helps riders do their job, thus helping advertisers get better exposure. Whether all the employees know what goes on is not clear. Many do know and remain silent. Others are happily ignorant.

    The onous is on athetes to prove they are innocent, which they refuse to do.

    The presumption of guilt, deceptive practices, false advertising and fraud applies to professional/commercial sports and doping.

    Innocent until proven guilty is actively in force today---which explains is why sport exists on television or why truly innocent truthtellers are allowed to be harassed and blackballed.

    If we operated on a moral plane---most sports would exist only as childrens' games or hobbies.



     
  8. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only cowardly clown on this forum in broken down house. btw: we are not in a courtroom, nor has a courtroom helped prevent doping.

    The 2000 Lille Trials---which you are happily ignorant of, established trauma doping as a standard and widespread practice in the peloton. Today, the anemia and renal drugs are even better and more powerful. And we have plasma substitutes.

    House's processed sugar fed diet has lead him to suspend reality as he bonks over his keyboard.

    Sing your ad hominem songs to Pantani, Zanetti, Millar, Museeuw, Seromn, Hamilton, Perez, Camenzind, Virenque and your other doped out pals.

    House must be a drug addict, because nowhere will you read with greater denial than in his meanspirited attacks. You must have much to hide.

    He has no case, just lots of personal attacks.

    Free advice: Do not read the daily sporting news--you might have a heart attack.




     
  9. Lonnie Utah

    Lonnie Utah Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    1
    Flyer,

    What, in your opinion, should be done to resolve the doping problem? I've seen alot of stuff from you, but I don't think I've ever seen you offer an opinion on what the solution is (it may be there, I just might not have seen it).
     
  10. House

    House Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you see what i am saying Utah? There could not have been a better response to prove my point.
     
  11. MJtje

    MJtje New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    He knows there can't be anything done about that..........like in all businesses and sports.....cheaters/lyers everywhere. Like I said before: you/he better deal with it.........And to go back to youre first respond I also pointed out to him that he has some huge fixation about doping. He has said that friends of him doped........and he has ridden with dopers......maybe there is youre answer. Still I would never post that much about it.

    But hee everyone has there own fixation.


     
  12. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, there is no "guilt" with a breach of the rules. It is an internal civil procedure reluctantly established by the UCI at the demands of WADA.

    A respondent in a civil proceedings if they lose a case are up for suspension, expulsion, damages, fine, etc. No where is the word "guilty" used.

    No incarceration on being found in breach and fines would only have to be paid if you or your team wished to continue in the sport. There would be no issue of an arrest warrant if you failed to show for a CAS Hearing.

    OJ Simpson went through it and it appears Michael Jackson is heading that way.

    Europeans accept that the peloton dopes. From these forums it is quite apparent that Americans have difficulty in finding that palatable, particularly now that Americans are winning. Cycling is huge in Europe and it is not uncommon for someone to know of an ex pro of any tier level who is paying the price in his health from doping.

    There exists circumstantial evidence that the peloton dopes. One strong piece is the number of "asthmatics" in the peloton are 14 times higher than the average general population. However, it appears only circumstantial evidence that is in breach of the rules nabs riders. Like getting caught in possession of forbidden drugs. Not the dope tests.
     
  13. Lonnie Utah

    Lonnie Utah Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    1
    True. I have one for redheads (So why did I marry a blonde????) :p

    L
     
  14. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    Getting the word out!

    Ignoring the ad hominem attack artists who act as 'doping apologists' and seek to promote the status quo. (House, Beastt, Mojolinr13, bspeedy)

    Support Richard Pound and WADA. Make a financial contribution to WADA, visit their website, read about their meetings and agendas.

    Send feedback to the Corporate sponsors expressing your concern regarding illegal doping in the very sport they underwrite.

    Ask why Lance Armstrong bullied Filippo Simeoni in last year's TDF and why his entire USPO harassed him and spit on him too.

    Ask why Lance remained committed to a corrupt doping doctor for 10 years. (pre & post cancer)

    Ask why riders such as Alex Zulle, Richard Virenque were allowed to race the TDF when Danilo DiLuca was excluded for a rumored phone tap with Dr. Carlo Santuccione (Ali the Chemist).

    Ask why Tyler Hamilton former team USPO doctor said Tyler demanded illegal drugs way back in 1997.

    Ask why we had yet another heart attck death today;
    Alessio Galletti, age 37 dead while 15 km from the finish line.

    He too was implicated with Carlo Santuccione. DiLuca better check his own pulse rate, eh?



     
  15. JohnO

    JohnO New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    0
    I also have had a problem with the looser rules of evidence regarding doping. It is becoming a modern witch hunt. However, given the difficulty of detecting some of the doping products, absolute proof isn't always forthcoming.

    Information on doping in the peloton has been sketchy at best, when it comes to actual proof. The only people talking usually have an axe to grind, and their information could well be biased. A fired soeignor, a mechanic who thinks the star owes him a bike shop, a doctor who left the team under dubious circumstances. The accusations may be true, but so far the accusers have always been tainted with the possibility of ulterior motives. It's a shadowy world. Even WADA is not exactly impartial - Dick Pound tends to shout first and verify later (if at all) so even his pronouncements can be suspect. Usually, he is right, but an accusation from him is not a guarantee of guilt.

    Even those caught are not necessarily given the same treatment. Virenque came back from a doping conviction to win King of the Mountain, and retire with honor. Pantani did not, his doping conviction led to his demise, and many feel that he was unfairly made into a sacrificial lamb. The politics of the peloton extend to doping convictions, too.

    It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Stop the doping with draconian tactics, and you make cyclists into virtual prisoners. Don't stop it, and the sport's credibility will be destroyed, along with the cyclists.

    In the end, it's all about money. The financial rewards of being a top cyclist are huge. For that sort of money, teams will bend the rules, and individuals will risk their own health.

    So how many cyclists dope today? Beats me. But at least I'll admit that I don't have a clue.
     
  16. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, and then those dead bodies keep stacking up. Lots of em, dozens of em.

    Axe to grind, sure, ateroids will grind your axe down to the wooden handle.

    Today we lost Alessio Galletti, age 37. He was a victim of a public 'witch hunt' just one year ago.

    The problem was---he was not caught soon enough.

    And now he is dead.

    Danilo DiLuca better check his pulse, as the 2005 #1 rider he was a victim of last June's witchhunt too.

    DiLuca was EXCLUDED from the TDF on alleged connection to Dr. Carlo Santuccione (Ali the Chemist) and was uninvited to the Tour. DiLuca apined why he was excluded when Lance Armstrong was not? LA had a book and former employees ratting on him, DiLuca only had cell phone referrences.

    Alissio was let go from his Team Damina Vacanze because of his alleged involvement with DiLuca/Mazzoleni/Santuccione and the Roche EPO drug C.E.R.A.

    The legal process and doping controls protect the dopers and promote deaths.

    We need more vigorous witchhunts.

    We need to identify the witches out there in order to same their lives.






     
  17. House

    House Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Two comments about Flyer, one funny, one sad:

    1) Funny- Flyer gets all worked up about "personal attacks" and "ad hominum" attacks, but his posts always include them. Of course we are talking about someone who claims to love a sport that he spends 100% of his time ripping on and talks of how bad the peloton is but mentors a young man to ride in it, so contradiction is a word he is quite familiar with.

    2) Sad- A fellow cyclist dies and Flyer can only jump on the news to further his agenda, not even a note of sorrow for the family.
     
  18. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    I feel rage for those who perpetuate doping and coverups.

    Especially dishonest coaches.

    Shame on you!

    AIS & Martin Barras recruited, trained, and developed Jobie Dajka--made into a World Class Sprinter--and a drug addict too---then sold him out yesterday. A 1-3 year suspension if he retracted his earlier statements re: AIS/Australian doping and is a good little doper.

    Testicomp overdoses, a lack of female fertility hormones, stimulants and a contempt attitude of deception is what Barras, "Coach of the Year" really does.

    Soon we may read that Jobie Dajka dies of a heart attack and joins Alessio Galletti, Pantani, Zanetti et al... Will house care?

    You shed your crocodile tears, meanwhile there is much anti-doping disclosures still to do.











     
  19. House

    House Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Another case of Flyer turning something into another one of his unfounded rants. Throw in a lie or two, add a personal attack and it's classic Flyer. Notice how he never really addresses either point.
     
  20. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow a post without the standard name calling. Only liar--is that the best you have?

    Has Gatorade consumption and processed sugar abuse adversely affected your already limited vocabulary?

    Coward, liar? These are your core weapons---and your only feeble points.

    The AIS doping scandal is no lie.

    The Lance Armstrong/Michele Ferrari's conviction is no lie. The six lawsuits and two criminal investigations against Lance are no lie.

    The 1990/1991 USCF Junior Road Team doping and lawsuits---no lie.

    The dozens of heart-failure deaths are no lie.

    Eddie Merckx's 3 failed dope tests---no lie.

    Eddie Merckx's doping confession in retirement---no lie---though you campaigned hard for it to be one.

    David Millar's Eprex EPO abuse---no lie.

    Your pathetic behavior and doping apologies reveal your true passion---the promotion of illegal doping.

    You must be a drug salesman under the pretence of a 'trusted coach'. There is no other explanation for your hostile behavior and utter contempt for anti-doping.

    You oppose doping discussion, disclosure and have a 'shoot the messaenger reaction' to every new death, suspension, confession and arrest.

    You have been outed as a drug dealer!



     
Loading...
Loading...