Followups

Quoted message said:

I'm going to get clip on aero bars and work on a position. Anyone care
to guess how much they will help?

Joseph

Well, obviously that aero gear is going to make you slower. Duh.
Cause it's expensive and heavy, and it doesn't work until you are a Cat
2 and averaging at least 27.94 mph. Below that is is just BUNK.
LeMond is lucky he didn't LOSE the 89TdF due to his aero bars. Lucky
for him Fignon was on a bad day that day, only placing third in the
fastest-ever TT in the world's biggest race ever.

Forget the aero gear. Find an old Basso Loto, they are THE [censored] THAT
WILL KILL THEM.

-RJ, woof-shrugging

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Bret said:

You've been arguing against the use of all TT equipment at Cat 4/5. I
think everyone who does TTs should at minimum use clip-on aerobars
which are quite affordable. The next step would be a rear disk wheel
and a deep section front wheel.

<snip>

Dumbass -

Rear disc isn't that important.

The first order effect is spending a lot of time dialing in the
position. The body is, by far, the biggest component of drag.

Second order effects are anything that are in "clean" air. Helmet, deep
section front wheel, forks.

The rear disc is a fifth order effect. It spins in "dirty" air. Last is
the frame - goes through "dirty" air and doesn't spin.

Ironically, the aerodynamic importance of a component seems to be
inversely proportional to the cost. It is a fortuitous occurrence.
Getting "aero" doesn't cost very much. Bars, helmet, fork, deep section
front wheel. Can be done for less than $500 if you buy used on ebay or
at swap meeets. If money is an issue, skip the fifth order effects, the
rear wheel and frame. The system won't look as impressive as a setup w/
the rear disc and snazzy frame, but it will be very close in
performance.

The last step: once one has the setup, train on it, at least once a
week. Get used to making wattage in the bars.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Fair enough. I never got very serious about TT's myself so I haven't
studied the details. I just know from experience that the bars and
wheels work. In fact, a pair of deep section wheels is noticably faster
in all road race conditions and I always race with them.

Bret

Bret said:

Fair enough. I never got very serious about TT's myself so I haven't
studied the details. I just know from experience that the bars and
wheels work. In fact, a pair of deep section wheels is noticably faster
in all road race conditions and I always race with them.

Dumbass -

Good idea.

Towards the end of my racing days I was struck by how much attention
(and money) people paid towards lightening up the bike while
simultaneously ignoring aerodynamics. Weight savings are so tiny
relative to the overall system (rider+bike) compared to potential
aerodynamic drag reductions. It's possible to take one's drag index
down 10%, but try cutting 10% off the bike/rider system. You'd have to
have a 3 lb. bike.

Small breakaways in mass start races are basically mini team time
trials.

I think one of the reasons aero gets ignored is that it's hard to
quantify. You can weigh parts, but how many Masters Fatties have access
to a wind tunnel? and the accompanying hard data that would tell a
racer that the aero stuff makes a difference.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth, I took some of the advice from the 10km TT thread
and applied way more effort than I had been previously. BIG
improvements. Holding my HR down to around LT resulted in about 23mph,
but hammering all I have got me to 14:52. That's over 40 km/h or just
over 25mph. That was also just me on the road, not at an arranged TT
event which might have given me a mental boost. Still on a regular
bike.

Good job! I think you are just getting started. A little specific high
intensity training, and some work on your position and I bet you'll be
close to 14. If you'd like some feedback on your position, slowtwitch
and biketechreview are probably the best forums to post some pics.

Quoted message said:

I'm going to get clip on aero bars and work on a position. Anyone care
to guess how much they will help?

Highly variable depending on how good your position is now, and how
well you adapt to the bars... and refine your position. An improvement
from 25mph to 26mph would be pretty normal though on a flat course.

For starters, I think I'd leave your seat position alone, and work on
optimizing your upper body position with the aerobars.

ronaldo_jeremiah said:

Is "making wattage" a euphemism for picking up chicks?

Sort of like 'Power Tap'

Bob Schwartz

Tim Lines said:

Ooohhh, very clever! So you're saying Ronaldo is REALLY:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shere_Hite

Ya mean he's not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronaldo

ronaldo_jeremiah said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Get used to making wattage in the bars.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Is "making wattage" a euphemism for picking up chicks?

Frankly, I don't see how spending more time in bars is going to improve
one's TT, though getting laid more often might help indirectly. It's
at least as good as any of Tom's advice so far.

Dumbass -

You gotta get comfortable riding in that position. If a rider is doing
something long, like a 40k, they're gonna start sucking if their arms
get tight or the back gets tight. People who are flexible usually don't
have a problem, but a lotta riders, after thousands of hours of sitting
on their hoods/drops, become inflexible in some places and don't feel
comfortable in the aero bars for longer periods of time.

I'm not talking about just getting into aerobars like those guys that
clip some bars onto their regular bars and are practically sitting
straight up when they "get aero". I'm talking about getting in the bars
that are set up right and *getting aero* (getting low (but not too
low)).

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Tim Lines said:

Quoted message said:

Ooohhh, very clever! So you're saying Ronaldo is REALLY:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shere_Hite

onexge said:

Ya mean he's not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronaldo

If he was he would be one of us; a masters fatty at least according to the
Brazilian president.

Bret said:

Fair enough. I never got very serious about TT's myself so I haven't
studied the details. I just know from experience that the bars and
wheels work. In fact, a pair of deep section wheels is noticably faster
in all road race conditions and I always race with them.

Agreed. At first I was a bit dubious about the cost of getting my Cosmics
but they definitely make a difference and also reduce effort to stay at
speed. These days only a gale force cross wind stops me from racing with
them.

ronaldo_jeremiah said:

Quoted message said:

Is "making wattage" a euphemism for picking up chicks?

Bob Schwartz said:

Sort of like 'Power Tap'

Dumbass,
No. Power tap is when you measure the torque applied to the BB by your
andoulette.

B. Lafferty said:

12%-15%

Presumably you're not talking about LANCE's haemocrit.

Curtis L. Russell said:

I just realized - I wasn't getting my nose broke, I was going aero.

Dumbass,
I would have though a greyhound was a good deal more aero than a pug.

Donald Munro said:

Curtis L. Russell said:

I just realized - I wasn't getting my nose broke, I was going aero.

Dumbass,
I would have though a greyhound was a good deal more aero than a pug.

One thing at a time.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

Not sure how I made that list. I've got no doubt I said something disagreeable,
but it's very unlikely I advocated for the purchase of bike bling by a
newby/fred. Honest, look at my bikes.

Ron

Bret said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Bret schreef:

Quoted message said:

equipment. How you are supposed to compete at this level (say 29 mph)
with a serious equipment disadvantage is not explained.

Time trialling is for pussies.

--
E. Dronkert

You'll get no argument from me. I'm more of a cyclocross specialist
myself now. I used some very bad judgement getting into a TT discussion
with Koach K.

Bret (who's racing a cross bike in an MTB hillclimb to 11,200 ft this
Sat)

Kickass.

Ron

Kurgan Gringioni said:

ronaldo_jeremiah said:

Is "making wattage" a euphemism for picking up chicks?

Frankly, I don't see how spending more time in bars is going to improve
one's TT, though getting laid more often might help indirectly. It's
at least as good as any of Tom's advice so far.

Dumbass -

You gotta get comfortable riding in that position. If a rider is doing
something long, like a 40k, they're gonna start sucking if their arms
get tight or the back gets tight. People who are flexible usually don't
have a problem, but a lotta riders, after thousands of hours of sitting
on their hoods/drops, become inflexible in some places and don't feel
comfortable in the aero bars for longer periods of time.

I'm not talking about just getting into aerobars like those guys that
clip some bars onto their regular bars and are practically sitting
straight up when they "get aero". I'm talking about getting in the bars
that are set up right and *getting aero* (getting low (but not too
low)).

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Dumbass,

By "bars", Ronaldo meant places that serve alcohol.

Andy Coggan

in message <[email hidden]>, Bret

(') said:

Bret (who's racing a cross bike in an MTB hillclimb to 11,200 ft this
Sat)

Is that as in 11,200 feet of climb (in which case, chapeau) or are you
starting from 11,100 feet?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; An enamorata is for life, not just for weekends.

Simon Brooke said:

Is that as in 11,200 feet of climb (in which case, chapeau) or are you
starting from 11,100 feet?

Somewhere in between:

Distance: 5.3 miles
Start Elevation: 9,080 feet
Highest Point: 11,142 feet
Total Climbing: 2,062 feet
Average Grade: 7%

http://epicsingletrack.com/racedes/Race1des.html

Bret

Quoted message said:

Dumbass,

By "bars", Ronaldo meant places that serve alcohol.

Andy Coggan

KG has seriously impaired his chances of making the Livedrunk (c)
fraternity (but all sexes welcomes) when he gives up the Fattie
Masters Fan Club. Beyond appalling.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

in message <[email hidden]>, Bret

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Is that as in 11,200 feet of climb (in which case, chapeau) or are you
starting from 11,100 feet?

Somewhere in between:

Distance: 5.3 miles
Start Elevation: 9,080 feet
Highest Point: 11,142 feet
Total Climbing: 2,062 feet
Average Grade: 7%

http://epicsingletrack.com/racedes/Race1des.html

H'mmm... looks a nice event. On that course a crosser should be a much
better bet than a full-on mountain bike - if it is all non-technical, as
they claim.

This weekend I am mostly organising a 400Km 24hour event across 7
mountain bike centres, with road bikes to link up between them.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey