food on the bike.

Discussion in 'Health Nutrition and Supplements' started by james.dippel, Jul 14, 2003.

  1. james.dippel

    james.dippel New Member

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    I went out riding on Saturday for 2hrs 30 mins and stayed between 65% and 80% of my maximum heart rate. After about 1hr 45 mins I started to fade, or (to use, I believe the technical term) bonk. Not having any food on board I just had to keep riding till I got home, I'm not quiet sure how I managed it as I found it really hard to keep my legs spining.

    From reading quiet a few books it seems to suggest you take in ~ 400 cals/hour, anything more becomes hard to deal with - too much energy expendid on digestion.

    What types of food does everyone tend to eat (are some foods better than others? simple carbs or complex? %'age split of Protein, carbs and fats?) on the bike? How much do you eat and how often?

    Also, do you still have a post ride meal (couple of slice of ham/chicken in brown bread)? And do you also eat dinner after all this?

    Thanks - I'm in progress (so it seems) of becoming a beefcake!!!
     
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  2. BugMan

    BugMan New Member

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    James - for rides longer than 1 hour, I recommend eating 1 power bar, 3-4 fig newton cookies, or some other complex carbohydrate for each additional hour you ride. Eat a little more if you're riding harder, but stay away from high sugar content foods. Hydration drinks also help because they also contain complex carbohydrates as well as keeping your electrolytes in balance.

    Protein + carbohydrates within 1 hour after the ride is also important (esp. for hard rides where muscles were taxed heavily) to allow muscle rebuild. What you eat is personal preference. A lean meat sandwich is fine - high carb/high protein energy bars are also good (and more convenient).

    Eat dinner too - you burn a lot of calories while riding and the food you take in during/after the ride should be intended primarily to fuel/replace what you've expended. Dinner gets you fueled up for your next ride. Unless you've got some fat to get rid of, your body will start breaking down muscle if it doesn't get the calories it needs. If you're gaining weight, make sure its muscle and not fat (the pinch test or body fat meter will tell you).

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. DurangoKid

    DurangoKid New Member

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    James, you’re sagging right about on time. Your liver stores about 1.5 hours worth of glycogen. Glycogen is the fuel your body makes from the food you eat. Your body can make glycogen from fats, proteins, and, yes, carbohydrates. I’m going to catch a lot of hell for this but you don’t necessarily need carbohydrates to replenish your glycogen. Carbs will do it the fastest but they are not the best answer for all people. In many cases, the boost in carbs causes a boost in insulin that is undesirable. For people who use cycling as a means to stay in shape or drop some weight it’s better to avoid the carbs and use fats and proteins for energy. Unfortunately, Americans have been trained to be fat phobic. Manufacturers have jumped on the low fat bandwagon because the feedstocks for high carb/low fat foods have higher profit margins and longer shelf lives. In addition, since almost every processed food has sugar in it we’ve become habituated to sweet foods. This has been a gold mine for corporations like Nestle, Conagra, and ADM.

    Granted, some people can apparently handle the carbs without gaining weight. However, that’s only 40% of the population. 60% of Americans are overweight or obese. Blaming it on fat doesn’t tell the whole metabolic tale. The key factor missing in the debate is insulin. Insulin is the metabolic traffic cop that directs the body to use carbohydrates first and other energy sources second. In an abnormally high carbohydrate, environment insulin levels are also abnormally high. Mainly carbs are used as fuel. The excess carbs and fats are shunted off into fat cells. Eventually insulin resistance can set in as the cell receptor sites shut down due to the high insulin load. It doesn’t stop there. Insulin resistance is a pre-diabetic condition. When the system crashes, you have type II diabetes. Obesity is associated with type II diabetes but you don’t have to be overweight to get it. Living off carbs and staying thin can also bring it on.

    So, what then is a reasonable amount of carb in the diet? Americans eat on average over 150 pounds of sugar per year. Two hundred years ago, it was about 10 pounds. During the late 19th and early 20th century, industrial farming brought the cost of sugar drastically lower. It’s during that era that heart disease took off.

    During the 19th century, lard was the preferred dietary fat. After the 1930’s hydrogenated fats were introduced in the forms of margarine and vegetable shortening. Heart disease continued to get worse.

    Here’s another factoid you may find interesting. One third of all three-year-olds will develop type II diabetes.

    There’s a thread here. Agribusiness is turning cheap commodities into high profit processed foods. The corporate propaganda organs have most Americans convinced that these processed foods are normal and good. If that’s true, why are so many Americans so unhealthy?

    A reasonable amount of carb in the diet is the carb found in low glycemic fruits and vegetables. No one needs more that that to be healthy.

    I emailed the NestlePowerbar website to suggest that they might want to produce a low carb Powerbar for people who wish to avoid sugar. It was like talking to a wall. The PR person claimed that there are “sensible” amounts of sugars in PowerBar products. I read the labels and I’m convinced there’s nothing sensible about 38 grams of sugar in one serving of a snack. Nestle is out after profit. Everything else is secondary. They’ll follow any fad or PR gimmick to get your money. They’re experts at carefully crafted ad copy that keeps them blameless under the law. After all, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to eat a PowerBar. I used to eat them. Not any more.

    I ride to stay in shape and because I enjoy training. I have fantasies about being a racer or training like one but, they’re just fantasies. Being able to ride and enjoy it when I’m 85 is more important to me than beating my body with over zealous training and trash foods. I don’t need the help of sugar sales representatives to ride a bike. Sugar and other refined carbs are not a natural part of the human diet. They are an outgrowth of industrial cuisine. James, I would suggest finding a good deli where you can buy some cheeses and dry sausages to take along on your rides. Look around for other snacks with proportions of protein and fats that outweigh the carbs. Take a few bites every thirty minutes or so. This will give your digestion time to work on the food and have it ready for glycogen when you need it.
     
  4. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs Guest

    The previous poster is correct in saying that carb intake evokes an insulin release. Protein may evoke the same but to a much lesser degree so some protein intake would help, too.
     
  5. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood New Member

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    I generally agree with your post, except for this point. Glycogen can not be made from fat. From carbs (glucose), and amino acids (protein) yes, but from fat, no.

    Fat is certainly metabolized and used for fuel, but not in the form of glycogen.
     
  6. KRASH187

    KRASH187 New Member

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    Carbs are the body's preferred energy source. Stay away from high GI carbs, except after training. Carbs are not the enemy. Depending on what type, and the timing, are the main points to remember. Low to medium GI carbs such as yams, brown rice, whole wheat bread and pasta, oatmeal, are staples in any athletes diet. I've been bodybuilding/weightlifting for the past 17 years, and have read countless articles on nutrition. I was at 5% bodyfat several months ago. I was very lean, ripped with a low carb dite. I was also very, very tired all time. No energy, enthusiasm, was very hard to process and complete normal tasks. Protein is used to repair and build muscle tissue from exercise induced trauma. The body need carbs to transport the protein, otherwise your body is using your protein as an energy source, however, the body is left with nothing then to repair muscle tissue.
     
  7. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    In normal people, insulin release is normal and healthy. It helps direct substrates to where it is needed. Following food and exercise insulin helps 'direct' triacylglycerol (fat) into the muscles and blood glucose into the muscles and liver to replenish glycogen stores.

    Exercise improves insulin sensitivity and insulin resistance. Unless you have high blood pressure, a lipid problem, obesity, etc. insulin should be the least of your worries. Doctors are more worried about cholesterol, triacylglycerol, LDL and low HDL levels, these increase when fat is eaten; thats why doctors routinly measure these.
     
  8. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    Originally posted by DurangoKid [/i]
    James, you’re sagging right about on time. Your liver stores about 1.5 hours worth of glycogen. Glycogen is the fuel your body makes from the food you eat. Your body can make glycogen from fats, proteins, and, yes, carbohydrates. I’m going to catch a lot of hell for this but you don’t necessarily need carbohydrates to replenish your glycogen. Carbs will do it the fastest but they are not the best answer for all people.

    >Glycogen is a carbohydrate molecule, made up with a chain of glucose molecules! These are replenished from dietary carbohydrate (simple or complex). Recovery of carbohydrate stores is proportionate carbohydrate consumed.

    In many cases, the boost in carbs causes a boost in insulin that is undesirable.

    >In most cases insulin is not undesirable. Infact, I am glad that insulin increases following food as this means that I don't have diabetes and that my sugar levels remain stable.

    For people who use cycling as a means to stay in shape or drop some weight it’s better to avoid the carbs and use fats and proteins for energy.

    >Carbs are important for all exercise and need to be eaten in the diet as the bodies stores are limited.

    Unfortunately, Americans have been trained to be fat phobic. Manufacturers have jumped on the low fat bandwagon because the feedstocks for high carb/low fat foods have higher profit margins and longer shelf lives. In addition, since almost every processed food has sugar in it we’ve become habituated to sweet foods. This has been a gold mine for corporations like Nestle, Conagra, and ADM.

    Granted, some people can apparently handle the carbs without gaining weight. However, that’s only 40% of the population. 60% of Americans are overweight or obese. Blaming it on fat doesn’t tell the whole metabolic tale.

    >60% of americans are overweight because the eat too much and exercise too little. A McDonalds happy meal contains more than a days worth of calories for the average child.

    The key factor missing in the debate is insulin. Insulin is the metabolic traffic cop that directs the body to use carbohydrates first and other energy sources second. In an abnormally high carbohydrate, environment insulin levels are also abnormally high. Mainly carbs are used as fuel. The excess carbs and fats are shunted off into fat cells.

    >The source (fat or carbs) of excess calories is not important in gaining mass, only that an excess of calories are consumbed. Check any basic physiology or nutrition text.

    Eventually insulin resistance can set in as the cell receptor sites shut down due to the high insulin load. It doesn’t stop there. Insulin resistance is a pre-diabetic condition. When the system crashes, you have type II diabetes. Obesity is associated with type II diabetes but you don’t have to be overweight to get it. Living off carbs and staying thin can also bring it on.

    >Carbohydrate intake (within a balanced diet) is not considered a risk factor in insulin resistance or diabetes. Instead things like age, smoking, alcohol, overweightness, lack of exercise, etc. In fact advice for people that are diabetic and/or insulin resistant is to eat a balanced diet, lose weight and take up exercise. Sounds like your reading a 'fad' diet book!!!

    So, what then is a reasonable amount of carb in the diet? Americans eat on average over 150 pounds of sugar per year. Two hundred years ago, it was about 10 pounds.

    >Sugar isn't the only type of carbohydrate you know! Yes americans eat too much sugar and too much refined food! 200 years ago people ate less sugar because refined and processed food were hard to come by, they still ate lots of carbohydrates but in other forms from potatos, rice, bread, grains, etc. Please don't try to tell me that 200 years ago people lived off fat and protein; this was expensive and hard to come by!!!

    During the late 19th and early 20th century, industrial farming brought the cost of sugar drastically lower. It’s during that era that heart disease took off.

    >Very true, but consumption of fat also took off at the same time!!! Sugar is bad for you, but sugar is not the only carbohydrate. Please don't use carbohydrate and sugar interchangably, thats very confusing and creates misunderstandings.

    During the 19th century, lard was the preferred dietary fat. After the 1930’s hydrogenated fats were introduced in the forms of margarine and vegetable shortening. Heart disease continued to get worse.

    >Hydrogenated fats are bad for you too. Heart disease continued to rise because fat intake increased, refined and process foods increased, sugar intake increased, obesity increased, exercise decreased, smoking increased, stress increased, people lived longer, alcohol consumption increased, etc., etc. Heart Disease is multi factorial, reduction in heart disease requires lifestyle change.

    Here’s another factoid you may find interesting. One third of all three-year-olds will develop type II diabetes.

    >Yes but only by the time they are old. Choose any number of the reasons above for cause of this.

    There’s a thread here. Agribusiness is turning cheap commodities into high profit processed foods. The corporate propaganda organs have most Americans convinced that these processed foods are normal and good. If that’s true, why are so many Americans so unhealthy?

    >Your first statement that makes sense... processed foods are bad for you; not carbohydrate!!! Most unprocessed food contain mainly carbohydrate, e.g. vegetables, fruit, grains, etc.

    A reasonable amount of carb in the diet is the carb found in low glycemic fruits and vegetables. No one needs more that that to be healthy.

    >Only if you eat enough fruit and veg, which most americans or westerners don't (anyone for a McDonalds).

    I emailed the NestlePowerbar website to suggest that they might want to produce a low carb Powerbar for people who wish to avoid sugar. It was like talking to a wall. The PR person claimed that there are “sensible” amounts of sugars in PowerBar products. I read the labels and I’m convinced there’s nothing sensible about 38 grams of sugar in one serving of a snack. Nestle is out after profit. Everything else is secondary. They’ll follow any fad or PR gimmick to get your money. They’re experts at carefully crafted ad copy that keeps them blameless under the law. After all, no one put a gun to your head and forced you to eat a PowerBar. I used to eat them. Not any more.

    >The whole point of a power bar is to provide you with carbohydrate so that you avoid glycogen depletion (i.e. the knock or bonk). As an american or person in the western world you are FREE not to buy the product!!!

    I ride to stay in shape and because I enjoy training. I have fantasies about being a racer or training like one but, they’re just fantasies. Being able to ride and enjoy it when I’m 85 is more important to me than beating my body with over zealous training and trash foods.

    >Faddy diets are as dangerous to health as trashy foods!!!

    I don’t need the help of sugar sales representatives to ride a bike. Sugar and other refined carbs are not a natural part of the human diet. They are an outgrowth of industrial cuisine.

    >Please don't confuse sugar and refined carbohydrates with complex carbohydrates.

    James, I would suggest finding a good deli where you can buy some cheeses and dry sausages to take along on your rides. Look around for other snacks with proportions of protein and fats that outweigh the carbs. Take a few bites every thirty minutes or so. This will give your digestion time to work on the food and have it ready for glycogen when you need it.

    >The insulin response is suppressed during exercise so you can eat a range of carbohydrates. Eat food designed to be taken during exercise (e.g. energy drinks and bars) or if you prefer eat things like jam sandwiches or bananas while on the bike.

    >Check out your governments department of health website or a nutrition text about the dangers of high fat + protein diets. A healthy diet is based around carbohydrate (with refined sugars kept to a minimum). All people should eat a balanced diet, for riders in the tour de france the proprtions of fat, carbohydrate and protein should be similar to normal people but the volume consumbed should be greater.
     
  9. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    Just done a search on google for 'atkins diet dangers' and pulled up more than 6300 links. The atkins diet is typical of a low carbohydrate, high protein diet; which it appears has become popular a number of times since 1800 and always been discredited. The largest risks are to those who already have metabolic disorders.

    How can a plate full of sausages and cheese be good for anyone, I'll stick to my tomatoes and pasta.
     
  10. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood New Member

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    Wow, there's some cold, hard science for ya. Are you really that desperate to prove yourself right that you're using the number of hits you get from a google search to back you up?

    OK, I'll try that too. When I look up 'carbohydrate health problems' I get 122,000 hits. Well, I guess that proves... nothing.

    The Internet is wonderful like that; you can always prove yourself right if you try hard enough.

    If you really care to learn something, read this. Fortunately this guy did more than a google search. I'm quite certain you'll have no interest. Being right is far more important. http://nasw.org/mem-maint/awards/01Taubesarticle1.html
     
  11. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    You are correct 2WheelsGood. The google search technique isn't a hard scientific technique, but I use it as few people have access to medline and its a very quick way to judge interest in a topic/get an overview quickly. Of course I am interested thats why I post on the site! As you state being right is important; but never more improtant than admitting you are wrong.

    My response to DurangoKid, which prompted the search, was to highlight the dangers of a low carbohydrate diet. You don't recomend this type of diet for 'normal' people or 'athletic' people do you, 2WheelsGood? DurangoKid, also seemed to mix up sugar/simple carbohydrates/refined sugars with complex carbohydrates; I'm sure that you will agree that carbohydrates do play an important part in everyones diet and that good/bad carbohydrates shouldn't be tainted with the same brush.

    Instead, I always recomend a balanced diet (neither excessivly high in carbohydrate or fat). To lose weight, people should simply restrict their energy intake and increase expendature.

    I actualy have a stack of papers that say high carbohydrate diets may be athrogenic on my desk, but that doesn't mean that we should advise people to eat high protein and fat diets as these carry their own health risks.

    The link you provided also looks at the different types of carbohydrate and I think that we can all agree that the simple sugars should be eaten in relatively small amounts. Sucrose, glucose, fructose, etc. pose a health risk both postprandialy and when eaten in large amounts in a diet. The link also looks at the types of fat, some being more harmful than others. The link neither suggests removing carbohydrate or fat from the diet.

    My recomendation (similar to the theme of the link you provided) is to eat a balanced diet, reducing intake of 'bad' carbohydrates and fats. This does not mean avoiding fat or carbohydrate exclusively (as DurangoKid suggested).

    2WheelsGood, you might be interested to know that the situation is somewhat different to that presented in the link for people that undertake regular exercise or follwoing a single bout of exercise. In fact, following a fatty meal, it has been shown that triacylglycerol (or triglycerides for Americans) concentrations are reduced following a single bout of exercise for upto 48 hours. During training there are chronic increases in HDL and reductions in LDL. Exercise (and particularly if there is weight loss) will improve insulin sensitivity; reducing insulin resistance and reducing circulating insulin levels. The benefits of exercise on CHD risk factors go on and on. Many of these benefits will occur independant to the diet eaten (be it a good or bad diet).

    There is evidence to suggest that even people who do eat an excessivly high carbohydrate diet and there fore MAY have an increased health risk (i.e. athletes, people on specific diets, etc.); may have no greater risk of CHD when exercise is completed and high CHO diet maintained. The risk from the high carbohydrate diet returns with a period of detraining (i.e. when training has stopped).

    Only recently the UK health minister said that exercise was the national health service's best buy! Perhaps along with a balanced diet, we should be advising sedentary people to take up exercise as well. I'm sure that an extra 500 kcals.day-1 energy expendature from every sedentary but able bodied american and westerner would have a massive impact on waist lines and type of people that attend ER.

    Much of the research (up until now) has ignored the effects of diet on the body during the postprandial period (which is a concern given the amount of time spent in the postprandial state). Many people with normal fasting values for a number of the CHD risk values, have abnormal postprandial responses and are therefore at risk. This is obviously difficult to detect and limited data from postprandial studies are difficult to encorporate in epidemiological work.

    Sorry to focus on CHD but that was picked up on in the link you provided and appears to encompas many of the problems associated with fad or extreme diets. 2WheelsGood, I hope that like me you appreciate that the diet and its interactions with inividuals and exercise is very complicated. I beleive that we should keep steering people towards a healthy balanced diet (not excessivly high or low in either carbohydrate, fat or protein) given that it is this diet that is likely to present fewest health risks in the long and short term. A balanced diet also being the most appropriate for most cyclists at every level.

    Sorry for the long post and bad spelling. :eek:
     
  12. 2WheelsGood

    2WheelsGood New Member

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    That's the problem. There is no universal agreement when it comes to human nutrition. As a science it's still in its infancy. The surface of our understanding has barely been scratched. For example, the discovery of insulin--not the effects or the job of insulin, but the substance itself--was discovered only 80 years ago. If something that huge was discovered only 80 years ago, that's a pretty good indication that we have a loooong way to go towards understanding everything about nutrition.

    Because of that, people who dismiss diets (be it Atkins or whatever) as "rubbish," are pretty close-minded in my opinion. Say what you want about Dr. Atkins, but he's certainly done his part to keep the ball rolling as far as continued research is concerned. The fact is, he didn't accept what was the current thinking in the field of nutrition. Whether he's right or wrong, people like him are needed to further the research on the subject.

    I'm not pushing Atkins, The Zone, or any diet for that matter. Not only do I think there is still an incredible amount to learn, I also think everyone responds differently to different diets. I'm a spokesperson for nobody. I just want to learn.

    As for your question of me recommending a low-carb diet for athletes... well, as I said, I'm not recommending anything in particular. However, as I said in the "weight loss" thread right below this one, I myself had incredible success with a low-carb diet. Enough success that it changed my career path.

    And speaking of nutrition and new career paths, I'd love to continue this, but I've gotta head to school. ;)

    Cheers
     
  13. james.dippel

    james.dippel New Member

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    easy answer - went out today on a 2 hour ride and included 5 PowerIntervals. Took two slices of brown bread with banana and honey slapped between them. Cut the sandwich into 4 and at 1 quarter at 45, 60, 75 and 90 minutes. Did the trick perfectly!

    Thanks for the replies.
     
  14. kiwiboy

    kiwiboy New Member

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    What do the pros actually use in say a big stage in the tour, anybody really know??????

    I struggle to keep enough in me over 160km I find my tummy gets to concentrated and I never absorb anything lots of water seems not to help.

    Is there a rule of thumb : say x amount of carbs per x min etc

    Not sure
     
  15. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    During a stage of the Tour or indeed any pro event, riders will often eat some "proper" food during the beginning of the event (for palatability and a change), such as sandwiches, tarts, etc. Often the initial part of a race is pretty low intensity. As the race progresses they mainly eat energy gels, and bars. Throughout the whole stage/race they drink energy drinks (carbo-electrolyte) and water.

    Drinking lots of water can be fatal, and isn't recommended, as it can cause hyponatraemia. You should drink a carbo-electrolyte solution.

    During exercise, the data are equivocal on events up to 60-mins. However, some research suggests that even in such short events a carbo-electrolyte solution of 4 - 8% may well be beneficial especially, if you have not eaten prior to the event.

    For training or racing > 1-hr, there is unequivocal research showing that 0.7 g CHO/kg body mass per hr extends performance (e.g., 30 to 70 g per hour). The majority of the CHO should come from glucose, as opposed to e.g., fructose, which can cause GI distress. You should consume the CHO at short regular intervals.

    Optimal hydration is ~ 150 to 350 mL three to four times an hour and should be of a 4 - 8% CHO-electrolyte solution (not in addition to the 30 to 70g CHO mentioned above).

    Sodium in quantities of 0.5 to 0.7 g/L should be included in the composition of the drink to enhance palatibility and the drive to drink. Including sodium should also prevent hyponatraemia in susceptible people.

    Ric
     
  16. Aztec

    Aztec New Member

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    I have only one thing to add here.... DAMN U.S. standardized system! If only we'd stuck with the metric system as planned back in the '70s. But nooooooooooooooo. Now I have to do all these conversions to Km, Kg, grams, etc. Grrrrrrrrrr.
     
  17. i2ambler

    i2ambler New Member

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    Having too much water can be fatal? I went on a 3 hour ride on sunday - extremely hot. I drank 3 liters of water and about a liter of accellerade during this time. I was literally gushing sweat in the 92 degree heat. I was obviously absorbing the water, because I didnt have to urinate, and the sweat was coming out very very fast. Scary fast, in fact. I stopped in the middle of a short hill to rest for a second (and get my heartrate down) and sweat literally poured from under my helmet.
     
  18. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    i2ambler, not sure if this is in refernce to something i wrote. however, too much water cause hyponatraemia (which can be fatal or need hospitalisation) in sucseptible people, and instead you should drink a carbohydrate - electrolyte solution (not plain water). i *think* but i'm not 100% certain that accelerade is carb - electrolyte drink. i wrote a bit more on the previous page about it.


    Ric
     
  19. Ssushi

    Ssushi New Member

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    I thought that you could store about 1500 cals in your muscles? At 500 cals per hour that would give you 3 hours before a bonk. My experience is that if I eat breakfast before a ride I wouldn't have to eat for a 2 hour ride. I chose to however to ensure a good ride and 'cos I'm bleeding starving!!!
     
  20. SCOOBA STEVE

    SCOOBA STEVE New Member

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    about time someone had the balls to say all that. i agree. i did the ATKINS diet and still control my carb intake even after loosing 30 pounds, and i race "A" grade and train just fine without loading up with high carb garb.
     
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