Foot angle on pedal?

[parawolf]

Here is an interesting one for those 'technique' gurus to consider and i'd like to solicit any ideas about this.

My sporting background is one of athletics, typically sprints (100m,200m,400m) and high jump. I went through a fair amount of some semi-professional coaches that had some form of state/elite exposure to training techniques in these disiplines. All of this was about 10 - 12 years ago. I also play A-Grade social volleyball, its competitive, however hardly professional (no training, no guidance, etc) I have been playing this for 14 years.

Now I have turned to cycling as a commute to work, however I want to get better at it (my inner athlete I guess). I am begining to notice my foot technique when I really want to put some power down in a seated or standing angle goes into 'sprint' position with the toes heavily pointed, and extending the power stroke well past the 7 o'clock position. I find this quite natural but a little awkward for cycling. When cruising it is what I think is a far more traditional angle.

Is this something I should even bother 'training' for, eg should foot position change with hill climbs, down hill, flats, sprints, etc... or is it just a matter of whatever is comfortable for you.

My 'circle work' on the pedals in my opinion is quite good for a newbie, I can maintain 85+rpm on say 43:12 (approximately) while staying very smooth, and on a gym bike I can hit 90-95rpm for a short while (5 minutes) and still maintain my technique.

I'm focusing for endurance rides, but I want to get better at hill climbs, though my body mass is a little against me at 85kg (187lbs) and 6'3.

Any thoughts and comments would be good.

 

[whoawhoa]

Here is an interesting one for those 'technique' gurus to consider and i'd like to solicit any ideas about this.

My sporting background is one of athletics, typically sprints (100m,200m,400m) and high jump. I went through a fair amount of some semi-professional coaches that had some form of state/elite exposure to training techniques in these disiplines. All of this was about 10 - 12 years ago. I also play A-Grade social volleyball, its competitive, however hardly professional (no training, no guidance, etc) I have been playing this for 14 years.

Now I have turned to cycling as a commute to work, however I want to get better at it (my inner athlete I guess). I am begining to notice my foot technique when I really want to put some power down in a seated or standing angle goes into 'sprint' position with the toes heavily pointed, and extending the power stroke well past the 7 o'clock position. I find this quite natural but a little awkward for cycling. When cruising it is what I think is a far more traditional angle.

Is this something I should even bother 'training' for, eg should foot position change with hill climbs, down hill, flats, sprints, etc... or is it just a matter of whatever is comfortable for you.

My 'circle work' on the pedals in my opinion is quite good for a newbie, I can maintain 85+rpm on say 43:12 (approximately) while staying very smooth, and on a gym bike I can hit 90-95rpm for a short while (5 minutes) and still maintain my technique.

I'm focusing for endurance rides, but I want to get better at hill climbs, though my body mass is a little against me at 85kg (187lbs) and 6'3.

Any thoughts and comments would be good.

I see 2 issues here:

1. "Pedaling Circles," so to speak. Most evidence points to this being a bad thing, rather than good.

2. Foot position: This one interests me. I know some people (wobblenaught bike fits for one;http://www.wobblenaught.com) use EMG to compare muscle firing across various pedaling styles. One theory is that pedaling toe-down fires the gastrocnemus (sorry for the poor spelling) which is a glycogen-pig and contributes very little to power production.

 

[parawolf]

I see 2 issues here:

1. "Pedaling Circles," so to speak. Most evidence points to this being a bad thing, rather than good.

2. Foot position: This one interests me. I know some people (wobblenaught bike fits for one;http://www.wobblenaught.com) use EMG to compare muscle firing across various pedaling styles. One theory is that pedaling toe-down fires the gastrocnemus (sorry for the poor spelling) which is a glycogen-pig and contributes very little to power production.

Well yes - not so much pedaling circles, as in I can maintain good cadance (in my opinion anyway!) and not 'bounce' or 'rock' on the saddle. I think I am definately a bit of a pedal stomper...

 

[thechief]

i'm with you on this one parawolf. i come from a running background and am tring to work out if i should be pointing my toes down or keeping my foot horizontal. i can't find too much on this anywhere either, which sucks.

 

[frenchyge]

I am begining to notice my foot technique when I really want to put some power down in a seated or standing angle goes into 'sprint' position with the toes heavily pointed, and extending the power stroke well past the 7 o'clock position. I find this quite natural but a little awkward for cycling.

That was also my natural tendency at first (while standing at least, not seated). However, now that I have a power meter, I found that that I end up losing power quickly when I let my hips shift forward and point my toes down as if I'm running on the front part of the circle (plus it makes my quads burn like crazy after a short period). After receiving some sprinting tips from a former pro, I now find that keeping my hips back, feet level, and extending the power stroke at the top (by driving the feet forward earlier while simultaneously pulling back with the arms -- hands in the drops) works much better than trying to push through the bottom.

Now, this is all very short duration stuff (ie, sprints or attacks), and the vast majority of cycling is what you can do for longer efforts. Coming from a background of very fast-twitch sports, cycling may present a new and difficult challenge. Good luck.

 

[parawolf]

i'm with you on this one parawolf. i come from a running background and am tring to work out if i should be pointing my toes down or keeping my foot horizontal. i can't find too much on this anywhere either, which sucks.

I've found since I started this thread, through experimentation, keep your feet flat. You burn your quads on the bike something shocking pointing your toes and it seriously destroys your energy later in longer rides.

I figure this is mainly because with sprinting you are wanting a real spring like action out of your foot with the pointed toes being the launch pad. On the cycling front, your legs are pistons not rubber bands being slingshotted.

That was also my natural tendency at first (while standing at least, not seated). However, now that I have a power meter, I found that that I end up losing power quickly when I let my hips shift forward and point my toes down as if I'm running on the front part of the circle (plus it makes my quads burn like crazy after a short period). After receiving some sprinting tips from a former pro, I now find that keeping my hips back, feet level, and extending the power stroke at the top (by driving the feet forward earlier while simultaneously pulling back with the arms -- hands in the drops) works much better than trying to push through the bottom.

Now, this is all very short duration stuff (ie, sprints or attacks), and the vast majority of cycling is what you can do for longer efforts. Coming from a background of very fast-twitch sports, cycling may present a new and difficult challenge. Good luck.

I agree. Climbing out of the saddle I still end up pointing my toes and shifting my weight too far forward (eg a 100metre sprinters angle of attack when leaving the blocks). The biggest problem with this is the back wheel starts spinning even on dry paths/roads and i lose traction + power output.

Thus I am focusing my climbing while seated.

I was out riding for a long while yesterday with my partner and two people passed us at about 200metres before the start of a hill. They got about 1/2 way up the hill and they both stood up meanwhile I just keep on spinning while seated and caught both of them with ease by the top of the hill (they had 30metre head start on a 400metre climb).

I find climbing while seated is so easy for me, and the primary reason for that is because of the better techinque of a 'flat foot' rather than pointed toes; in my opinion.

 

[thechief]

love your work guys! much appreciated. the cycling i do is for triathlons so i'm not in the saddle long while racing but i don't want to blow all my energy on the bike and have nothing left for the run.

i'll go off and train now with a horizontal foot in the pedal and hopefully see an improvement in my running too

 

[padawan]

I've found since I started this thread, through experimentation, keep your feet flat. You burn your quads on the bike something shocking pointing your toes and it seriously destroys your energy later in longer rides.

Agree with most of what has been said. Just to add/clarify a little. Your foot angle will likely change throughout the 360 degrees of a crank rotation. Most cyclists have there toes pointed down a little as they move from the 'back' of the stroke 7 or 8 o'clock up through 12 o'clock. As you 'unweight' the foot moving up you tend to pull with your heel causing the toes to point.

My opionion is that it's OK if your toes are still pointed down a little as you move from 12 o'clock through to say 4 or 5 o'clock. Most of the down stroke power comes from the quads. I don't think there's any evidence that your quad firing will be less efficient with your toes pointed a little.

As you move from 4 or 5 o'clock back to 7 o'clock, you will lose some efficiency if your toes are pointed down too much. It's in this part of the pedal stroke where your hamstrings will provide more of the power (the 'scraping mud off your shoe' analogy). I try to make sure that I'm dropping my heel a little to flatten out my foot angle for this part of the pedal stoke. Thus dividing the total work between the quads and hamstrings (as opposed to mostly quads).

My background is mostly distance triathlon and over the long haul dividing up that workload between the major muscle groups is very important! I'm sure this would apply to road racing too.

 

[K50]

Yeah good question. Flat footed! I used to point my toes too but found flat foot pedalling is more efficient.