Forget 12 speed crapbagnolo, 13 speed ceramicspeed!

[swampy1970]

https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/ceramicspeed-driven-drive-shaft-52587/

Looks like a novel system and could be promising. If the claims about drive train losses are accurate, it'll be worth a nice gain and it'd be interesting to see what a mass produced version would be like and how easy it would be to clean.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Your jersey...flapping in the wind. Just sayin'. And that crankset? It's a modified Campagnolo Bullet Ultra TT crankset. Just sayin'.

I wonder how long those exposed, tiny ball bearings would last under real world conditions.

And in any event I'll have to wait until 12-speed comes to Chorus to upgrade. Only Record and SR mechanical groups for now.

 

[phillman5]

Why all the negativity? Growing up I heard if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all. I have both 2012 Chorus, and 2016 Sram Red, and I do believe the Campy stuff is better built.

 

[BrianNystrom]

The main problems with the Ceramicspeed DrivEn drivetrain are:

1 - The bearings are open, which means they're quickly get contaminated with dirt and the 1% increase in efficiency will go out the window. If you put seals on the bearings, the 1% increase in efficiency will go out the window.

2 - The flat driven disk will flex under any significant torque, which means that most of the "gears" toward the outside will skip as it flexes under pressure.

3 - The tiny fingers on the drive and driven disks will bend and break easily.

4 - They haven't figured out how to shift it and it may not even be possible to do so.

This is an interesting engineering exercise with no practical applications in the real world, with the possible exception of track bikes and other single speeds. At least it's a pretty neat example of out-of-the-box thinking...

Rotor's 1x13 drivetrain is more interesting, as it actually works and you'll be able to buy it soon. It could be my next 'cross/gravel drivetrain, but more than likely my next road upgrade will be to Campy 2x12 (I'm riding Campy 2x10 currently).

 

[Froze]

I agree with Brian on all aspects of what he said. I even think the Rotor system will be better than the current electronic system which I don't think is all that great with all the **** that can and does go wrong with it. As it stand now with what I know about the Rotor system, which isn't much I admit, but on the surface it seems to be a much more reliable idea than the electronics system and perhaps the same as mechanical or maybe better, but I'll have to wait a bit longer for more information on it before I embrace it.

 

[BrianNystrom]

The current Rotor Uno system has been a good proof-of-concept. It's lighter than mechanical systems, completely sealed and requires essentially zero maintenance. The one downside has been the price.

Low pressure hydraulics like this have a lot of potential for integration into frames and other components, as they are not bound by traditional cable routing requirements (you can have 90-degree bends and other types of connections in hydraulic systems). It will be interesting to see how this develops.

 

[Froze]

The current Rotor Uno system has been a good proof-of-concept. It's lighter than mechanical systems, completely sealed and requires essentially zero maintenance. The one downside has been the price.

Low pressure hydraulics like this have a lot of potential for integration into frames and other components, as they are not bound by traditional cable routing requirements (you can have 90-degree bends and other types of connections in hydraulic systems). It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Rotor is known for their expensive stuff so it's no surprise that the UNO is expensive, and I don't see Rotor dropping the price much even if production goes up due to sales; but I do agree that it will be interesting to see how that system develops. If this thing works out well it send shock waves through Shimano, SRAM, and Campy because they'll have to scramble to come up with something that will be even better which could fail like Suntour did with their Accushift when they scrambled. I'm actually hoping that this Uno system will succeed, and not just succeed but succeed BIG time.

 

[cyclintom]

The main problems with the Ceramicspeed DrivEn drivetrain are:

1 - The bearings are open, which means they're quickly get contaminated with dirt and the 1% increase in efficiency will go out the window. If you put seals on the bearings, the 1% increase in efficiency will go out the window.

2 - The flat driven disk will flex under any significant torque, which means that most of the "gears" toward the outside will skip as it flexes under pressure.

3 - The tiny fingers on the drive and driven disks will bend and break easily.

4 - They haven't figured out how to shift it and it may not even be possible to do so.

This is an interesting engineering exercise with no practical applications in the real world, with the possible exception of track bikes and other single speeds. At least it's a pretty neat example of out-of-the-box thinking...

Rotor's 1x13 drivetrain is more interesting, as it actually works and you'll be able to buy it soon. It could be my next 'cross/gravel drivetrain, but more than likely my next road upgrade will be to Campy 2x12 (I'm riding Campy 2x10 currently).

1. That isn't a problem since you need only use sealed bearings like you do in most of a bicycle's bearings.
2. That does appear to be a problem without a solution. Though perhaps a carbon fiber flat plate backing would be effective.
3. Those finger if made properly would not flex. They are not "tiny".
4. Shifting is really easy and I'm sure they have that figured out. You run a shift cable or shaft through the center of the drive shaft and using slots in the drive shaft pull the drive bearing fore or aft.

There is a lot of troubles with the present day chain and sprocket and multi-derailleur system and everyone is investigating ways to get away from them. The CeramicSpeed system is at least a try at a change away from dirty broken chains that wear out rapidly and cassettes that wear out and the entirely open drive train that attracts mud and grease from miles in every direction.

There is actually an internal 10 speed hub if memory serves. The problem presently is that whether it is strong enough to withstand the huge pressures on it.

My take is that we could probably make a very simple hydraulic drive system totally enclosed within the bottom bracket and rear hub. I'll have to think about that.

 

[BrianNystrom]

1. That isn't a problem since you need only use sealed bearings like you do in most of a bicycle's bearings.

Adding seals would increase drag and eliminate the friction advantage that's their major claim for this system, which makes the whole exercise largely pointless. They expressly stated that their main purpose in designing it was to create the lowest friction drivetrain possible. While they succeeded in doing so with a design that works fine in a lab, it's not practical in the real world.

2. That does appear to be a problem without a solution. Though perhaps a carbon fiber flat plate backing would be effective.

Good luck with that. The way the system is currently designed, there simply isn't any room for a rigid enough structure, regardless of what it's made of.

3. Those finger if made properly would not flex. They are not "tiny".

Did you actually look closely at it? The ARE tiny and they're aluminum, which means they're also weak and prone to wear, especially when they get dirty.

4. Shifting is really easy and I'm sure they have that figured out. You run a shift cable or shaft through the center of the drive shaft and using slots in the drive shaft pull the drive bearing fore or aft.

If it was that easy, they'd be doing it already rather that trotting out a single-speed. Right now, even if they do have a way to shift it, it simply will not work under any significant load, which is very obvious.

There is a lot of troubles with the present day chain and sprocket and multi-derailleur system and everyone is investigating ways to get away from them.

Who exactly is everyone? I don't see a huge clamor in the market for alternatives to systems that currently work quite well. Current shifting systems aren't perfect, but they're very efficient, reasonably priced and easy to maintain.

The CeramicSpeed system is at least a try at a change away from dirty broken chains that wear out rapidly and cassettes that wear out and the entirely open drive train that attracts mud and grease from miles in every direction.

Kudos to them for thinking outside the box, but they don't really have a viable alternative drivetrain here.
How exactly does a drivetrain attract grease? it's not as if there are puddles of it laying around. For that matter, how does it attract anything?

With PROPER lubrication, chain drives can stay quite clean and they last for thousands of miles before anything needs replacing.

There is actually an internal 10 speed hub if memory serves. The problem presently is that whether it is strong enough to withstand the huge pressures on it.

There have been 14-speed internal hubs on the market for over a decade (Rohloff), as well as numerous others with fewer gears from a variety of manufacturers. The problem with internal hubs has nothing to do with pressures and in-fact, they hold up even to off-road use. The problem is that they're heavy, expensive and are less efficient than chain drive systems.

My take is that we could probably make a very simple hydraulic drive system totally enclosed within the bottom bracket and rear hub. I'll have to think about that.

There are already BB-based drive systems and they suffer from the same problems as internal hubs. weight, cost and efficiency. On top of that, the frame has to be constructed specifically for a given drive system, as they all unique and there are no standards for them currently.