frame material, steel vs aluminum

[alfeng]

Are you sure about that? Their website says the two are made from different aluminium alloys, and the Comp gets carbon seat stays and different wheels. I've no idea if there is really much difference in the types of aluminium though. If you just meant the geometry, then yeah, they match.

You are right!

Not only did Specialized change the frame specs (Sorry, my bad), but they bumped the price up by $200 (the COMP used to be ~$1600US, I think) ... that really makes the SPORT model almost a bargain @ $1100 ... ~$900-or-less in a month's time (i.e., end of June).

The sad fact about aluminum frames is that "studies" have shown that the less exotic aluminum frames apparently last longer ... undoubtedly, because they are beefier and the frames are not engineered to the Nth degree of optimization.

A similar observation, BTW, can be made for steel frames ... the "common" (but, heavier) variants, whether they are seamed, "gas pipe" frames or less exotic alloys, are all-but-indestructible.

 

[alfeng]

biking for me will be mostly paved roads and perhaps a few dirt roads
maybe even some rails-to-trails or other non-paved rides
thus my desire for a cx/s wider tire, or a touring's wider tire
still can't get away from the spec tricross sport/comp option
worried about weight of steel, bending rear triangle elements
(mentioned by someone else about a surly they owned)
worried about bike shop issues
do not want to make a mistake
don't want to be fooled IF the spec zertz carbon inserts are really just gimick
so what do i do
what do i do
ugh

I reckon the difference in weight between the heaviest (and, I mean HEAVIEST) steel frame & a not-so-exotic aluminum frame is not going to be more than 3 lbs. It's hard to find a bare steel frame that weighs more than 6 lbs, and doubtful that you'll find many aluminum frames that weigh less than 3 lbs. (though, there are definitely EXOTIC frames out there that weigh less). Figure a mid-range steel frame (not counting the fork) will weigh about 5 lbs, give-or-take depending on the size.

I love the fact that steel is malleable ... I don't know what the issue was with the particular SURLY ... that wouldn't be (isn't) my complaint against their frames.

BTW. I now only have road frames with either 130mm spacing or 120mm spacing ... the latter are vintage frames made with so-called "gas pipe" AND almost impossible to re-space. The CroMo frames which had 126mm spacing were easy-enough to "tweak" to 130mm spacing because steel is malleable (the 126mm rear triangles were re-spaced for continuity to allow any wheelset that I have to theoretically be useable on any frame ... except for the ones with 120mm spacing, that is).

The strongest frames are usually the less expensive ones ... the only thing is that the components that those frames are outfitted with are not as nice (but, they can be changed). The components can be changed on ANY bike regardless of initial cost ...

So, amongst all the bikes you've indicated, I'd still go with the FUJI Touring bike ... the price of that bike should be reduced in another month UNLESS the guy has to order it for you. Reduced prices with the end of a given selling season, BTW, only apply to in-stock inventory (is that stating the obvious?).

FWIW. The ONLY options (if durability is solely what you are looking for) that would probably be better (not counting the JAMIS, or equivalent steel framed bike) would be to take something like a late-70s RALEIGH GRAND PRIX (or, RALEIGH RECORD) and update ALL of the components ... OR, most late-70s to early-80s CroMo steel ROAD frames (other than most Italian frames which are designed for "racing" ... the rest were generally capable of "large" 700c wheels + fenders) and update the components ... OR, a custom frame (like a BRUCE GORDON).

 

[archermd]

what is "spacing"

can i see the new '08 bikes now onlpine and can they be ordered
i am traveling the 1st week of july and really want to take the bike with me
i will be in northewestern frederick county, maryland, for 2 weeks in july and again in august and there is great biking there, nice roads and covered bridges...
i may miss out on the '08s but unless there are big changes in components or paint/aesthetics, no big deal... i will likely have to order my bike regardless, so not likely to save $$$ on an '07 model anyway

 

[alfeng]

what is "spacing"

can i see the new '08 bikes now onlpine and can they be ordered
i am traveling the 1st week of july and really want to take the bike with me
i will be in northewestern frederick county, maryland, for 2 weeks in july and again in august and there is great biking there, nice roads and covered bridges...
i may miss out on the '08s but unless there are big changes in components or paint/aesthetics, no big deal... i will likely have to order my bike regardless, so not likely to save $$$ on an '07 model anyway

A bike's rear spacing is the distance between the "dropouts" in which the rear wheel is fitted.

On MTBs & hybrids, the spacing is USUALLY (but, not always with hybrids) 135mm. I presume that so-called "comfort" bikes have 135mm spacing, too.

On ROAD & CX bikes, the (current) spacing is usually 130mm ... there may be some cyclocross(-type) bikes whose rear spacing is 135mm ... of course, OLDER bikes may have narrower spacing. The spacing on ROAD bikes has changed over time as the rear hub has become wider to accommodate MORE gears on the rear cluster.

I reckon that the odds of being able to actually see a 2008 bike are slim ... new "stuff" was previewed at recent trade shows (you have to look at recent copies of periodicals like BICYLING or VELONEWS, or check their respective websites) ...

The difference between a 2007 & 2008 bikes will mostly relate to the components. So, the 2007 Specialized Tricross COMP has a 10-speed group, whereas the previous (say, 2005) had a 9-speed group. More road bikes will probably be available with the SRAM components in the future to satisfy a consumer "demand" (i.e., having something different).

On some MTBs, you can sometimes see prototypes of rear suspension tweaking or forks in bikes used during competitions.

AFAIK, there isn't anything "new" (at least, in the mid-range) on the horizon for 2008 as far as components ... a lot of changes to components were made in the past couple of years ... but, Shimano MAY (or, may not) let their DA rear hub design trickle down to the other road groups in the next couple of years, or not!

So, the biggest difference (if any) will probably be the paint & decals the manufacturer chooses for a given model if it is carried over from this year to 2008. If there are significant changes, you can probably anticipate a higher price tag!

Next year's models usually aren't available until the September-October time frame.

FWIW. Here are some threads you may want to look at (no particular order ... just "googled" to find these):

http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-281874.html

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-286404-15-2.html

http://www.roadcycling.net/t375040.html

​

I'm sure you can find other/more info on the respective bikes.

 

[thomas_cho]

biking for me will be mostly paved roads and perhaps a few dirt roads
maybe even some rails-to-trails or other non-paved rides
thus my desire for a cx/s wider tire, or a touring's wider tire
still can't get away from the spec tricross sport/comp option
worried about weight of steel, bending rear triangle elements
(mentioned by someone else about a surly they owned)
worried about bike shop issues
do not want to make a mistake
don't want to be fooled IF the spec zertz carbon inserts are really just gimick
so what do i do
what do i do
ugh

Hi there, I have 2 steel roadies, 1 Carbon, and 1 aluminum tourer, and 1 Aluminum roadie frame (unbuilt at this time).

If you intend to use the bike to ride some trails, the tourer frame may give you some problems in that the bottom bracket is lower to the ground, compared to a CX one. So you might find that there may not be enough clearance at times, ie your pedals might scrape the ground in certain conditions.

During my search for a touring bike, I was very close to getting the Surly Cross check, but decided against it, as it has a shorter chainstay which gives me less heel clearance and could lead to my heel hitting against my pannier bags when I ride loaded.

This is just my roundabout way of saying you should identify your needs clearly, and then find the product to match it.

If you are worried about how "heavy" steel is compared to other materials, have a think about the actual weight difference. Could you feel 500-800g in frame weight difference? This is like carrying two loaded water bottles.

You could probably worry and think about a lot more factors, and end up not getting anything because there is no one do-it-all perfectly frame out there.

 

[archermd]

so guys, my riding will be roads, perhaps a few trails
(well groomed trails near civilization)
a rails-to-trailsm if i get brave enough
a dirt road now and then
so
touring or cx
if touring i will order fuji or jamis (i like the colors, similar on both)
if fujo or jamis, which one and why
if cx i will get specialized
sport or comp
make a suggestion based on materials and components
not basxed on price
i can afford a few more $$$ up front if it gets me a better ride long term...
many thanks
y'all are very kind

 

[thomas_cho]

so guys, my riding will be roads, perhaps a few trails
(well groomed trails near civilization)
a rails-to-trailsm if i get brave enough
a dirt road now and then
so
touring or cx
if touring i will order fuji or jamis (i like the colors, similar on both)
if fujo or jamis, which one and why
if cx i will get specialized
sport or comp
make a suggestion based on materials and components
not basxed on price
i can afford a few more $$$ up front if it gets me a better ride long term...
many thanks
y'all are very kind

If you are not going touring, why are you considering touring specific bikes? Sorry if you have answered this before, I could have missed an earlier post.

 

[archermd]

i am considering touring bikes only because there are so many steel frames
and many folks suggest steel
especially for a guy 235 pounds like me
on diet and lost 23 already
goal is 185-190
will do roads, dirt roads, a few paths and trails
thought of getting cx
tricross sport or more likely comp
not sure what to do
need to get something already
my son wants me to ride with him
he is 14 and impatient
so what would you buy if i gave you 2k with this plan for the riding

 

[thomas_cho]

i am considering touring bikes only because there are so many steel frames
and many folks suggest steel
especially for a guy 235 pounds like me
on diet and lost 23 already
goal is 185-190
will do roads, dirt roads, a few paths and trails
thought of getting cx
tricross sport or more likely comp
not sure what to do
need to get something already
my son wants me to ride with him
he is 14 and impatient
so what would you buy if i gave you 2k with this plan for the riding

Dont really know what the prices are like in US, but I did check out the Sepcialized Tricross and its a beauty. I think Aluminum frames are just as reliable as steel ones (some scientists here can flame me if they want, I have no scientific backing for this statement, just pure hearsay). If it were my $2K, I would get the specialized (I am a sucker for marketing). If you really want steel, the Surly cross check is not a bad buy either, I think they sell a fully built up model as well. Alternatively try and get a quote from a shop to build up a Cross Check. The advantages of building a bike up from a frame, you can pretty much custom fit everything to your wants ( not necessarily needs).

I am a heavyweight as well, hovering around the clydesdale mark at the moment. Since you sound like you are concerned about your weight being an issue for the bike, one of the areas which you must spend good money on is the wheelset, make sure you get a good strong wheelset that will withstand your riding. I am not going to get into what I think makes a strong wheelset, but there are many many posts on this.

The Shimano 105 groupset is a proven workhorse, even at Tiagra level, most people dont have problems. The general advise is to come in at the 105 level.

Good luck with your bike choice, and hope that you start cycling soon!

BTW ... I dont know how to advice you on your son.

 

[Raleighroader]

The problem with buying a touring bike just to get the steel frame is that not only are steel frames typically heavier than the other ones out there, but touring bikes are heavier than normal recreational road bikes of the same quality. The touring bikes have longer wheelbases and are overbuilt to handle the extra weight of gear.

I have had steel, aluminum, and carbon, and frankly, there is very little difference in the ride of any of them that can't be offset with saddle and tires.

My advice is to go for lighter weight, meaning carbon or aluminum, and forego the steel, especially if you have to go into a touring bike to get steel. As between carbon and aluminum, most carbon frames seem slightly more resilient than most aluminum frames, but you can make either one work very well.

 

[xxamr_corpxx]

Frame material is not terrible important for the strength of a bike. Aluminium fatigue isn't really a factor unless you ride like Armstrong. Tires and geometry
are more important than frame material for comfort.

My opinion is that you get some mid-range components (105) and spend some money to get a nice and strong wheelset.

If you want something for the road and the trails, perhaps you can check out a Hybrid. Giant's CRX series are apparently quite good, and they would be able to fit fatter tyres than road racers. Or else you could look at the Avanti Blade series or Trek hybrids.

 

[alfeng]

so guys, my riding will be roads, perhaps a few trails
(well groomed trails near civilization)
a rails-to-trailsm if i get brave enough
a dirt road now and then
so
touring or cx
if touring i will order fuji or jamis (i like the colors, similar on both)
if fujo or jamis, which one and why
if cx i will get specialized
sport or comp
make a suggestion based on materials and components
not basxed on price
i can afford a few more $$$ up front if it gets me a better ride long term...
many thanks
y'all are very kind

Okay, sorry to (also) change the equation at such a late point in your decision process ...

But, for a "first" bike to ease you back into cycling ... here's a bike I seriously think you should consider -- the cost is low, and it will satisfy your needs for this year:

It is completely devoid of any cool factor of any kind ... it is available at PERFORMANCE BIKE ... it is classified as a hybrid/comfort-bike ... it comes with FAT, 700x37 tires.

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=23884&subcategory_ID=3060​

FWIW. PERFORMANCE BIKE sells FUJI in their walk-in stores ... I don't know if they have the Fuji Touring bike at any of them, but I would think they would ...

You can get a list of their walk-in stores by checking their website (http://www.performancebike.com/inform/store_locations.cfm or www.performancebike.com/) ... there may be one close to where you live OR where you will be (there are three in Maryland, including B'more -- one may be close to where you will be). CALL & ask ... about availability AND how long it will take for them to set the bike up if you walk-in & want to walk out with the bike.

BTW. Remember, all the components can be changed at some point ... the only (?) true problem with less expensive components is that they weigh more ... and, the main reason that they generally don't last is because of lack of maintenance. EVERYTHING can be changed -- you can change the 'flat' bar to road bars, the shifters/crank/derailleurs/etc can be changed, the fork can be changed & you can get a "spare" set of wheels with narrower rims so that you can use 700x28 (or, smaller) tires.

Oh, yes ... that bike is only $400, right now.

DON'T FORGET -- you will need a helmet! Gloves & shoes are optional, but recommended. I prefer Shimano's shoes as I think they are roomier ... others apparently disagree. The Shimano M030 is a utlitarian cycling shoe that you can use with clipless, or not ... and, not too expensive (you can get a really expensive pair of shoes, later, if the need/desire arises).

An air pump & tire patch kit are also a good idea, too.

 

[archermd]

thnaks everyone
mongoose is a bargain but not what i am looking for
raleighroader... what do you ride?
there is a shop nearby that is big on raleigh
i had a raleigh grand pric=x in white in the 70's back in high school
loved igt
the raleigh cx bike looks nice
love the color
but it is a double notn triple chainring setup
cna you suggest another raleigh
if not
i will likely order my spec tricross tomorrow
still debating sport vs comp version
sprort has more flash with red highlights onblack frame
comp is a step up however
decisions decisions decisions

 

[thomas_cho]

thnaks everyone
mongoose is a bargain but not what i am looking for
raleighroader... what do you ride?
there is a shop nearby that is big on raleigh
i had a raleigh grand pric=x in white in the 70's back in high school
loved igt
the raleigh cx bike looks nice
love the color
but it is a double notn triple chainring setup
cna you suggest another raleigh
if not
i will likely order my spec tricross tomorrow
still debating sport vs comp version
sprort has more flash with red highlights onblack frame
comp is a step up however
decisions decisions decisions

Dont forget to ask your shop for a set of strong wheels.

 

[alfeng]

thnaks everyone
mongoose is a bargain but not what i am looking for
raleighroader... what do you ride?
there is a shop nearby that is big on raleigh
i had a raleigh grand pric=x in white in the 70's back in high school
loved igt
the raleigh cx bike looks nice
love the color
but it is a double notn triple chainring setup
cna you suggest another raleigh
if not
i will likely order my spec tricross tomorrow
still debating sport vs comp version
sprort has more flash with red highlights onblack frame
comp is a step up however
decisions decisions decisions

Tsk. Tsk.

Sadly, I was wrong -- no one stepped up and validated your choice of a Specialized Tricross ... YET, you are going ahead with your prior choice ... a brave soldier!

Just be advised, that for the price of the Comp, you could do much better now or in the future. For your reference, check:

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/

&

http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=1

EXCEL caters to CX riders, but it is off-season, and their mail-order & website catalog probably doesn't have much right now.

Ask to be put both mailing lists ... if only for future reference.

COLORADO CYLCIST (or, was it EXCEL) used to sell a ready-to-ride REDLINE CONQUEST for about $1100+ (a real bargain on a pretty nice bike), but apparently REDLINE is not allowing mail-order sales of their bikes for the time being (i.e., walk-in, only). BUT, there are certainly REDLINE dealers close to where you live or travel.

The Redline Conquest will be a better CX bike than either Specialized bike -- it is actually the choice of many who race competitively who aren't sponsored riders.

Currently, Colorado Cyclist is carrying this SALSA frame (below) for the cost of the Fuji and/or Jamis:

[size=-2]SALSA Las Cruces Cross Frame/Fork[/size]
[size=-2]Salsa Cycles is without question the "Top Dog" when it comes to Cyclo-Cross frames. The Las Cruces is one of the most sought after Cross framesets in ... More[/size] [size=-2]SALAAA1
$899.00[/size][size=-2]Reg. $1060.00[/size][size=-2]Save 15%[/size]

But, it would be a better bike than the Specialized Tricross Comp.

HABENERO makes/sells mighty-fine Titanium frames at a very reasonable cost ... and, you should investigate those BEFORE putting your money down on any Specilized frame.

BTW/FWIW. There is a recent thread regarding Specialized bikes, in general, that you may want to read:

http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=397899​

The reason for being a fan of Specialized by one poster is valid ... particularly, read her "last" post.

 

[archermd]

i have not put my money into anything
not yet
just got back from rounds at the hospital
may shop later
what was it you wanted from your posts alfeng?
were you looking to bait someone else into the discusion?
were you trying to get others to ofer advice for or against specialized?
i appreciate your time and efforts helping me, i really do
if you have a reason why i should avoid the specialized
i will listen
hey, once told something valid a rational guy listens

i would not hang out with that moron in the news with tb any more than i would buy a bike that someone more experienced has reasons for me to avoid

so, tell me what to do, or not do, and i will heed your advice
i may go to the raliegh guy later
but his cx bike is a double
i thought i wanted a triple
i may seek a surly after all
god this is taking so long!!!!

 

[Raleighroader]

My Raleigh is a 1998 aluminum model; not relevant to your current decision. My more recent bike is a 2006 Trek 5000 carbon. I do most of my commuting on the old Raleigh.

I have been a Clydesdale for most of the time I owned the Raleigh, about your weight. Don't worry that you are too heavy for any type of frame. As someone else said, though, you will want to have good wheels.

Currently I have my old Raleigh spec'd with 36 spoke rear wheel and 32 spoke front, running 25c tires for my commuting.

 

[archermd]

ok so now i realy need help
went to 3 local shops

1s was a raleigh place with few bikes to shoe, not much help at all, but they claim they can get a sury and build it for me, which the other 2 say they can't but also this is the smallest of the 3 shops and is run by one main guy and a few helpers here and there so i worry about reliability over time

2nd was the fuji/jamis place, not too many bikes in stock, mostly fuji roubaix (odd they use the same name as a specialized model) and a few newest models, overall underwhelmed with the help so i left for yet another visit to our local big shop, mostly a specialzied place, some trek too

3rd place, well they were going to sway me to order the tricross, eother sport or comp, but then one worker and my son sort of gsnged up on me and tried to get me to take a sequoia off the floor, not an elite so less carbon elements, pretty paint and all, but 23 tires and y;all have read my concerns and desires for a wider tire, so now i am make to contemplating the tricross, the sport has a higher spoke count wheels on the comp are said to be good for heavier riders per the specialzed website, so what do i do, and are cantilever brakes a bad thing, help me please

 

[anth]

this is the smallest of the 3 shops and is run by one main guy and a few helpers

fuji roubaix (odd they use the same name as a specialized model)

are cantilever brakes a bad thing

Going back to the aluminium vs steel issue, an old thread has popped up again recently with people raving about aluminum.
http://cyclingforums.com/t-375685-15-1.html

I've had both, and found aluminium better. All that proves is that you get what you pay for, and it wouldn't put me off getting steel in future. It may well be that some of the early Al bikes sufferred from designers who weren't used to the material, which could have put off a lot of people who tried them and went back to their steel bikes.

At the small shop the guy running it probably has a bigger stake in making sure the customers are happy. That doesn't help if he gets hit by a bus of course, but for me the size of the shop isn't that big a deal.

Paris-Roubaix is a race that is known for the bad roads it uses. The manufacturers are probably trying to say that those bikes sacrifice a bit of speed compared to other road racing bikes for better durability and comfort.

Cantilevers probably don't give quite as much control as calipers, but they provide much more tyre clearance.

The Tricross has had some great reviews, but this thread doesn't seem to have been noticed by anyone who rides one. Have you ridden one? The geometry on the two models you are considering is the same, so I might consider test riding one then ordering the other, but if you haven't ridden a Tricross at all then buying one is a bit of a leap into the unknown.

 

[archermd]

thanks
i have gone for a short ride on a tricross and it was fine

for me as a novice returning to a bike the ride was more focused on not falling, and every test ride so far has hurt my butt, so i need to learn how to sit properly and find a bike to buy, autumn and winter are fast approachning at the rate i am going!

i wonder if i would get more bike for the money if i skipped the cyclocroos thing and went for a road bike... the worry for me is if i ever hit a should, or a dirt road, or decide to ride on rails-to-trails (whatever that is, but i have heard it can be very nice and scenic) then a 23 or 25 tire won't do well and i could hurt the bike or myself

now if a 23 tire would be ok on such a ride then a sequoia elite or even aregular level sequoia or going up to a specialized roubaix with triple chainrings might be good options

see my dilema, i am not in shape and not an outside athelete by anyone's standards but the cx bike does sem to offer best of all options

i am excluding trek tx series and specialized sirrus due to the flat bars, since i think over time i will want drop bars for more options

i am worried about the posts of some specialized haters out there, but eveyone loves one brand and hates another i guess, just look are cars and motorcycles, and boy do i want a harley but the wife is gonna flip with this bike so forget that pipe dream for now i suppose

send more advice, i need to buy or order something this week