Frame material synopsis

[Unbelievably]

What is your preference?
What are the pros and cons of each material/manufacturer?

I've done alot of reading on this forum and understand
the best procedure of buying the "best" bike...
However...
...my problem lies here.
I live in Japan. Which does not afford me the chance to
take anything out for a ride that would be a fitting frame size.
Any bike that I would want would have to be ordered by my LBS,
Ordered from a manufacturer, myself... or made by a local artisan.

I'm looking at my dream road racer
and I hope not to have any buyers remorse.

Thanks

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I'll take a shot at this... I'll go by frame material:

Steel - is very dense (heavy), but also very stiff too and strong too. What this means is that you can build a frame that has thin, small diameter tubes but is still stiff and strong enough to ride. By strong, I mean it won't dent or break easily. It is also very easy to braze or weld a steel frame. On the negative side, it is difficult to make a very light frame from steel since the tubing is already so thin. Taking material away would make it easy to dent and crumple. Steel also rusts.

Aluminum - has a very low density, but is also very flexible. It is also not as strong as steel. Therefore, you have to use much more material to match the performance of a steel frame. Another trick is to make very big diameter tubes. The larger the diameter, the more stiff it is. And since you're using so much aluminum anyways, you can make the tubing walls a lot thinner without compromising the strength too much. It is possible to make very light aluminum frames this way. For the down side, aluminum is difficult to weld without making it brittle and prone to failure. Thin wall tubing is also more likely to dent, crumple, and crack. It also takes some effort to design it so that there is enough material in the right spots to prevent premature fatigue failures.

Titanium - is in between steel and aluminum for density and flexibility, but is also quite strong. It is difficult to process (because of its hardness) and weld (just like aluminum), but it is possible to build a light, stiff, strong frame using more "normal" tubing diameters and wall thicknesses. Ti also doesn't rust. It is, however, expensive because refining Ti, turning it into tubing, and welding it are expensive.

Carbon - is very strong for its weight, but it is a fiber. Think of a rope. You can pull on a rope and it is very strong. Push on a rope and it collapses. Like a rope, carbon fibers have strength in only one direction. Builders must figure out where the forces are on a bike and orient the fibers accordingly. Those fibers are then held in place using epoxy plastic. If designed properly a carbon frame will be light and very strong. If not, it might break. These days builders have enough experience to put fibers where they are needed and in the correct orientation. Carbon frames can be light, but they can also be very expensive. How strong and stiff it is depends on who designed it.

As you can see there is no perfect or even best material to build a bike out of. The weight, stiffness, strength and cost of a bike will depend more on who designed it than what material it is made out of. The cost will reflect this. I hope that helps.

John Swanson
www.bikephysics.com

 

[fauxpas]

As you can see there is no perfect or even best material to build a bike out of.

True... Someone here recently bought a steel bianchi, and as long as it didn't give too much up in the weight dept, I'd love one...

And I just checked that person's post and they reckon their's weighs just 17.5 pounds (7.95kg).

 

[Bigbananabike]

What is your preference?
What are the pros and cons of each material/manufacturer?

I've done alot of reading on this forum and understand
the best procedure of buying the "best" bike...
However...
...my problem lies here.
I live in Japan. Which does not afford me the chance to
take anything out for a ride that would be a fitting frame size.
Any bike that I would want would have to be ordered by my LBS,
Ordered from a manufacturer, myself... or made by a local artisan.

I'm looking at my dream road racer
and I hope not to have any buyers remorse.

Thanks

=========================================================
Steel rusting? Ask around - you will never find anyone with a steel frame that has rusted in anyway that would be detrimental to the frame. I have a steel framed bike that I've had for 11 years. There are small lines of rust under the paintwork from my sweat when I've used it on the trainer. When(or if) I repaint it the rust will be killed and painted over - end of 'problem'. Inside the frame there will be slight surface rust(I've ridden this bike countless times in the rain). It will never effect the strenght of the frame.

Aluminium fatiguing? Read up about it - for a aluminum bike frame to fatique(to the point of breaking or ?) it would need to be ridden hundreds of thousands of miles.

I'm very impressed with my 2 aluminum framed(carbon forks) bikes. Light(ish), stiff, handle well etc. Felt F80 frame(I built it up with mostly Ultegra bear) and Fausto Coppi Galaxy with Altec tubing.

 

[lks]

What is your preference?
What are the pros and cons of each material/manufacturer?

I've done alot of reading on this forum and understand
the best procedure of buying the "best" bike...
However...
...my problem lies here.
I live in Japan. Which does not afford me the chance to
take anything out for a ride that would be a fitting frame size.
Any bike that I would want would have to be ordered by my LBS,
Ordered from a manufacturer, myself... or made by a local artisan.

I'm looking at my dream road racer
and I hope not to have any buyers remorse.

Thanks

For a given strength, pre-impregnated carbon fiber is the lightest, that is suitable for frame and fork. It's used extensively where cost is no object, like the Aerospace Industry and race car & motorcycles. The material has to be kept in a humidity controlled refrigerator and has a very limited life after removel, then the part has to be built in a clean room and placed in a precision steel mold, under vacuum and placed in an oven. A bicycle frame, built this way, will probably be made up of at least 150 seperate pieces of precision cut material, and each frame size requires a different mold. Since the carbon fibers are pre-impregnated before the carbon cloth is woven, it can be woven tighter than if resin had to be applied after the material is woven, because you can't get good enough resin penetration then. The traditionl method results in what Trek callc OCLV, Optimum Compaction Low Void. Pre-preg gives you MCNV, Maximum Compaction No Void. A pre-preg frame and fork will cost about $5,000.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

=========================================================
Steel rusting? Ask around - you will never find anyone with a steel frame that has rusted in anyway that would be detrimental to the frame. I have a steel framed bike that I've had for 11 years. There are small lines of rust under the paintwork from my sweat when I've used it on the trainer. When(or if) I repaint it the rust will be killed and painted over - end of 'problem'. Inside the frame there will be slight surface rust(I've ridden this bike countless times in the rain). It will never effect the strenght of the frame.

Aluminium fatiguing? Read up about it - for a aluminum bike frame to fatique(to the point of breaking or ?) it would need to be ridden hundreds of thousands of miles.

I'm very impressed with my 2 aluminum framed(carbon forks) bikes. Light(ish), stiff, handle well etc. Felt F80 frame(I built it up with mostly Ultegra bear) and Fausto Coppi Galaxy with Altec tubing.

Yup. Steel rusts. I had a friend who had a rust inside and outside the frame that lead to a fatigue failure on the seat tube. I was on the ride with him and inspected it. It wasn't a case of fatigue crack followed by rust, either. And I know of someone who had a steel fork rust inside to the point that it gave way near the dropout. Ouch.

Yup, aluminum -can- have poor fatigue properties, which is why some thought needs to be given on where to put extra material and how to heat treat it.

All frames will eventually suffer from fatigue failure. Common areas are at the chainstays near the bottom bracket and any holes such as water bottle bosses.

John Swanson

 

[fauxpas]

Yup. Steel rusts. I had a friend who had a rust inside and outside the frame that lead to a fatigue failure on the seat tube. I was on the ride with him and inspected it. It wasn't a case of fatigue crack followed by rust, either. And I know of someone who had a steel fork rust inside to the point that it gave way near the dropout. Ouch.

Yup, aluminum -can- have poor fatigue properties, which is why some thought needs to be given on where to put extra material and how to heat treat it.

All frames will eventually suffer from fatigue failure. Common areas are at the chainstays near the bottom bracket and any holes such as water bottle bosses.

John Swanson

But how old were the bikes to rust so bad? I seen many bikes in light rust condition being ridden as daily commutes with the bikes being 20+ years old.

 

[backtobiking]

I like steel. I can thrash a bike around and have it feel very rigid. I'm very comfortable on a steel bike plowing into a sharp corner as heavy as I am. I don't have the same feeling from other frames like aluminum or carbon fiber. My bikes are older. One is a 92 and the other is a 93. One would be hard pressed to find rust on the frames. Take care of them and they will last..

 

[ScienceIsCool]

But how old were the bikes to rust so bad? I seen many bikes in light rust condition being ridden as daily commutes with the bikes being 20+ years old.

Not that old, actually. Maybe 5 years. The problem is that I'm in Vancouver and we ride all year round, but it's wet and miserable from November until March. If you put in 10-12 hours per week through the winter, it doesn't take long for a bit of rust to develop even if you're careful.

John Swanson

 

[DiabloScott]

What is your preference?
What are the pros and cons of each material/manufacturer? Thanks

See what you really have to decide is what material is right for you - what line of marketing BS you're most comfortable repeating back.

I've wanted to start one of those web quizzes like "what flower are you?" or "what kind of dog would you be?" except mine would be "what bike frame are you?". It would have questions like: (1=strongly agree, etc)

1. I want to be fast - comfort is for Nancys.
2. Dents add character
3. Battleship gray is a beautiful color
4. I love the smell of sew-up glue
5. Jimmy Neutron is my favorite cartoon
6. White zinfandel is under rated.
7. I am a lardass

etc... then I would have a program spit out a random selection and say "You are a random selection frame, you demand the best yadda yadda" and then people would be able to buy a new bike with confidence that they're getting the perfect material for them.

 

[hd reynolds]

I'm looking at my dream road racer
and I hope not to have any buyers remorse.

Thanks

I'll save the lecture and therefore recommend a Seven Elium. They custom build. Will take less than 3 weeks guaranteed.

 

[xxamr_corpxx]

Not that old, actually. Maybe 5 years. The problem is that I'm in Vancouver and we ride all year round, but it's wet and miserable from November until March. If you put in 10-12 hours per week through the winter, it doesn't take long for a bit of rust to develop even if you're careful.

John Swanson

Do they throw salt onto the roads there for the snow? That may be the root of the problem.

I ride my steel bike only in dry weather, and keep it in a warm climate indoors. Has not developed any rust yet.

 

[fauxpas]

If all bikes of all materials can be gotten down to 8kg, then its up to personal pref. then I imagine...

I aint ridden steel in a while (not bicycles anyway ) and actually, including the MTBs, I been riding alu solely. My first roadie had alu frame and chro-mo forks. The CF forks I now ride on are nice and smooth.

 

[Unbelievably]

See what you really have to decide is what material is right for you - what line of marketing BS you're most comfortable repeating back.

I've wanted to start one of those web quizzes like "what flower are you?" or "what kind of dog would you be?" except mine would be "what bike frame are you?". It would have questions like: (1=strongly agree, etc)

1. I want to be fast - comfort is for Nancys.
2. Dents add character
3. Battleship gray is a beautiful color
4. I love the smell of sew-up glue
5. Jimmy Neutron is my favorite cartoon
6. White zinfandel is under rated.
7. I am a lardass

etc... then I would have a program spit out a random selection and say "You are a random selection frame, you demand the best yadda yadda" and then people would be able to buy a new bike with confidence that they're getting the perfect material for them.

Fantastic rhetoric,
yet your opinion was only expressed for a distain of questions
that might come up more often than you would like to see.
Tough ****,eh?

Why don't you tell us some this marketing BS
that people are buying into? Please fill us in...
What do you see as trends or fads?

 

[Bro Deal]

I've wanted to start one of those web quizzes like "what flower are you?" or "what kind of dog would you be?" except mine would be "what bike frame are you?".

1) Do you care about what other people think of your bike?
YES - Go to 2.
NO - Go to 3.

2) Are you the gullible type that believes that frame material contributes
more than 1% of what the tires do to the comfort of a bike?
YES - Go to 4.
NO - Go to 8.

3) Are you low on funds?
YES - Buy a cheap no name aluminum frame made in Taiwan and sold
at Performance or Nashbar. STOP.
NO - Go to 5.

4) Are you the super gullible type that believes that chainstays and seatstays
made from different materials than the main triangle will make a bike even
more comfortable?
YES - Buy an aluminum frame with a carbon rear triangle. STOP.
NO - Go to 7

5) Do you mind riding an off brand from a smaller company that tries to
pretend it is a frame manufacturer?
YES - Go to 6.
No - Buy an aluminum Felt. STOP.

6) Are you someone with no sense of asthetics who will not vomit at the
thought of owning a compact frameset?
YES - Buy an aluminum Specialized. STOP.
NO - Buy an aluminum Trek. STOP.

7) Does the word "carbon" make you think a frame is worth a couple of thousand
dollars more than the non-carbon frames made by the same manufacturer even
though the carbon frame are made in China instead of in the U.S. like their other
frames?
YES - Buy a Cannondale carbon frame. STOP.
NO - Go to 9.

8) Do you have a jones for that old school, thin tube look?
YES - Go to 12.
NO - Go to 13.

9) Does owning a frame made in Taiwan bother you?
YES - Go to 10.
NO - Buy a carbon fiber Giant. STOP.

10) Do you want to own the same frame that everyone and their dog owns and
have people sneer at you for having no taste?
YES - Buy a carbon Trek. STOP.
NO - Go to 11.

11) Do you mind slightly odd gussets at the juncture of tubes?
YES - Buy a Parlee. STOP.
NO - Buy a Calfee. STOP.

12) Do you mind waiting four years for your frame to be made.
YES - Go to 14.
NO - Buy a Richard Sachs steel. STOP.

13) Are you the insecure type that wants a frame that lots of other people
in you area have?
YES - Buy a titanium Litespeed. STOP.
NO - Go to 15.

14) Will your wife/girlfriend kill you if you spend a couple Gs on a frame?
YES - Buy a cheap steel frame like a Gunnar. STOP.
NO - Buy an steel Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel. STOP.

15) Do you want the best titanium craftsmanship available?
YES - Buy a MOOTS. STOP.
NO - Buy a Seven. STOP.

 

[mikesbytes]

If we ignore cheap nasty stuff, there is less than 1kg difference between all of the frames out there. Should we simply ignore what material it is actually made from and see how good the bike is for you.

 

[Unbelievably]

If we ignore cheap nasty stuff, there is less than 1kg difference between all of the frames out there. Should we simply ignore what material it is actually made from and see how good the bike is for you.

I couldn't agree more...

I believe there is no definitive "best bike" and might add that
not looking for such but more looking to chat about modern materials being
used in the cycling world. Forum member's experience and antidotes that
may or may not influence my decision of which frame-set I will end up with.

As I said,
I'm in Japan. Although my language skills are not the best I get by.
However, if the only serious cyclist I know happens to be my LBS owner
that is all about top drawer stuff...yikes. He wants to sell me bling.

If there was some kind of protocal that is held by this forum...
I missed it

Perhaps if I was to start the thread "Which bike is best for me?"
I might have expected such a responses...

Anyways,
Thanks for you patience.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Okay, how about this? I believe that titanium holds a very slight edge in peformance and does not need to be brutally expensive. With small-ish diameter tubes you have improved aerodynamics. It doesn't rust ever. It has wall thicknesses that make it tough to the point of being bulletproof.

I bought a Habanero titanium for less than $1000 Cdn delivered. It has a well thought out design and is nicely fabricated. It weighs roughly 1500 grams which is light, but not the lightest you can get. It has a one inch headset, but so far that hasn't limited my choices. Easton makes their stupid light forks in one inch and Columbus makes some models too. I chose a Columbus Carve with Aluminum steerer for about $150. Awesome. I ride it. I race it. I crash it occassionally. On yesterday's hammerfest my teammate asked me if it was new. Enough said.

John Swanson
www.bikephysics.com

I couldn't agree more...

I believe there is no definitive "best bike" and might add that
not looking for such but more looking to chat about modern materials being
used in the cycling world. Forum member's experience and antidotes that
may or may not influence my decision of which frame-set I will end up with.

As I said,
I'm in Japan. Although my language skills are not the best I get by.
However, if the only serious cyclist I know happens to be my LBS owner
that is all about top drawer stuff...yikes. He wants to sell me bling.

If there was some kind of protocal that is held by this forum...
I missed it

Perhaps if I was to start the thread "Which bike is best for me?"
I might have expected such a responses...

Anyways,
Thanks for you patience.

 

[DiabloScott]

Why don't you tell us some this marketing BS
that people are buying into? Please fill us in...
What do you see as trends or fads?

Tell me what parts you think AREN'T BS, and then I'll tell you where you're wrong.

People buy the bike that they like, and then they adopt the respective spin about why they made a good decision. Sometimes they also change their mind with a subsequent purchase and then they'll adopt the spin on why their earlier frame material was inferior. My website quiz idea just helps them make up their minds before actually buying anything so they can jump right in here and start repeating the BS immediately.

Beyond marketing BS is forum BS. Especially egregious is the forum BS about fatigue - it's astounding the way clueless people present their BS about fatigue as fact.

 

[mikesbytes]

The most important thing for performance is the nut behind the handlebars, if you feel like ****, you are going to ride like ****.

Rather than asking what is the lightest frame, or the best material, I would ask, which frame will give "me" (as distinct from someone else) the best ride. For "me", I need a confortable ride for my shoulder, because if it hurts, I'm not going to ride as well. Then I would be thinking about transmission of the energy from the pedals to the ground, if the frame is flexing left and right while you pedal, you are going to get less performance out of your effort. Just look at how heavy some of the top track bike frames are.