Frame materials - Which is best?



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Ok, I have been riding all my life. I'll start with the BMX bikes we use to race. There was redline and mongoose which had steel chromoly frames, JMC which had the first ovalized down tube aluminum frame and Torquer which had dual top tube a-la evil imperial mtb. All these bikes felt different and acted different and raced them all. I was a large rider at the time so I tended to break frames and I did break a Laguna and mongoose. I never broke the JMC or Torquer. All these bikes had different handling and ride characteristics. I use to ride 30 miles in a day on a bmx bike on a daily basis during my summers. My redline was the bike of choice followed by my Torquer. For racing my JMC was my bike of choice. It never flexed (stiff) and was superlight. So for my long rides I prefered a little flex and for my racing I prefered stiffness. Funny thing is that the Torquer was aluminum and flexed more than the JMC and less than the redline. I liked it the best, if I had to pick one bike. THe design was the reason.

Moving into mountain bikes, I had both steel and aluminum here. I stayed away from Ti because most of the mfg's tend to make Ti to thin wall to be effective at preventing failures, so Alum or Steel was always the way to go. For heavy duty designs on MTB's, Aluminum is the way to go. I have had SC Bullits, Kona Stabs and Turner RFX's which were tough as hell as well as a ton of hardtails to include Treks, Specialized Schin Jamis and Bianchi. By far my Turner was always the best riding bike and that had to be due to design.

Move to road bikes. Again I have been on many steel bikes to include lemond, Peugot, Bianchi. I have been on many aluminum bikes to include Canondale, Specialized, Giant (TCR). I have been on one Ti bike, a litespeed and I have been on several carbon bikes, including Kestrel Talon, Look KG-361. I always hear people say that carbon flex, however, my kestrel was probably stiffer than most aluminum frames yet dampened vibration very well. The monocoque design worked well. I liked the bike. I like the KG361 better, since it is a little more forgiving. My steel frames were all good and forgiving, but give up weight. The aluminum frames are good as well and usually are stiffer. I have no complaints about the TCR. It was fast and light and fairly confortable.

So in the end, the materials, design, and type of use are all factors if you plan to do some really serious riding, but picking just one factor will get you nothing. I find that I really don't know how much I will like a bike until I have been riding it for a month or so and have put at least several 40 mile plus rides on it. Then I can make a decision. Unfortunately, you have to buy it. Otherwise you can go ff of recommendations or reviews. The old adage, you get what you pay for is usually true to a point, barring price increase due to brand status.
 
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:25:04 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> made this cogent remark :

>ajames54:
>
>> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:14:16 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:
>>
>> >Ed Chait:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> news:[email protected]...

(the reaponse evolved.. feel free to skip to the bottom)

>
>> There is a great deal of information on the vibration
>> dampening/transmission qualities of differing materials..
>
>Relate that to bicycle frames in quantitative terms and you'd start getting somewhere.

So while it is understood that gray cast iron dampens vibration far more effectively than steel, and
that Carbon fiber is far more effective than Aluminum. For you that is irrelevant because the tests
were not specifically done on bicycles? Seriously this may sound sarcastic but I really want to know
why a body of knowledge that is fully documented in engineering becomes a myth when it is applied to
cycling (though it is not the only one that's for sure)

>
>> There is no small amount of medical information regarding the effects of both high and low
>> frequency vibrations on health.
><- snip ->
>
>Irrelevant.

Why irrelevant? do you believe that there is no vibration when riding? or that the vibrations felt
when riding are some how different that any other vibration? Or that they have no impact on someones
subjective "comfort"

>
>Feeling the difference is one thing, attributing (and proving) that to a specific cause (frame
>material) is quite another.

the vibration is not caused by the frame (material)... the vibration is caused by riding the bike on
an uneven surface...(heck you even call that a brilliant observation bellow)... The vibration is
transmitted through the frame to the rider. Different materials transmit vibration differently. You
stipulate to all of these points in the bit I just snipped for brevity. but then you go on to say...

>
>Sure. Foam dampens vibrations quite effectively. Talk about materials in the form of bicycle frames
>though, because that's what the issue is.

Once again it looks like you are saying that a fact well documented scientifically does not apply to
bicyles simply because it has never been tested specifically on bicycles.

>
>> It is far more accurate to say that frame material CAN affect comfort than it is to say it
>> does not.
>
>How can you qualify that as "more accurate", when you have absolutely no scientific proof? Rephrase
>that to "It is fair to guess that frame material..."; now THAT is a more accurate statement.

More accurate than"there is no effect. Full stop."? Absolutely ... it is a property of the material,
the material does not care what use it is put to. I can say with 100% certanty that three bikes
which are absolutely identical in all respects except frame material will each transmit vibration
differently. I will happily grant the fact that different production methods/ material demensions
have in some cases a far greater effect on vibration transmission than material choice alone. But
the choices are teid together in many cases so..

>Lack of scientific proof makes that idea more accurately dismissed than accepted.
>
The only point in this whole discussion that lacks "scientific proof" is whether or not road
vibration transmitted through the frame of a bicycle affects comfort..(which is why I left the
little tags in there for arguements sake) and if so how much .. and that is really what it
comes down to.

And I really hope that is what the discussion is all about. HOW MUCH effect does it have.. and we're
back to "what is the best colour". I will not say "Carbon Fiber dampens vibration better than
Aluminum therfore it is more comfortable" but I will say with 100% assurance "Carbon Fiber dampens
vibration better than Aluminum"

How much is a measurable amount but it is highly dependant on the form of the construct ... But
material CHOICE does have an effect, it may very well be negligable but it IS there.
 
On 21 Nov 2003 18:21:01 -0800, [email protected] (David Mackintosh) made this cogent remark :

>ajames54 <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> There is a great deal of information on the vibration
>> dampening/transmission qualities of differing materials..
>
>Dampening is what a wet sponge does. Nice on a hot day, but otherwise not great for most structural
>applications (very low specific stiffness).
>
>-David

Damn spell checker.. (not the computer, the one that shorts out between fingers and brain)
 
Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On 21 Nov 2003 07:46:00 -0800, [email protected] (Stuart Black) wrote:
> >extremely hard to dispose of which drives the cost even higher. If Not-able could be further
> >reduced to Notable, that would be truly remarkable.
>
> I'm pretty sure that Notable is easily catalyzed into Really-greatium. The catalyst is
> Nonexistine, IIRC.
>
> >Stuart Black

I am a chemist so I know this stuff. "Really-greatium" is a fictious material that can't really
exist because the configuration of protons and neutrons in the nucleus can't possibly hold together
under any condition obtainable in the current universe. As for the catalyst - "Nonexistine" - you
might as well be using Unicorn blood. It's a myth! The only true wonder metal is Unobtainium as
everyone knows. ;)

Stuart Black
 
Rik O'Shea wrote
> A new bicycle tubing has just been developed that is made out of a material that was developed by
> NASA as part of the Space Shuttle program. This super alloy is called "Unobtainium".
>
> It has an anti-corrosive property and has a high fatigure life and is not subject to any sudden
> failure. It's lightweigth but strong and durable. It's stiff but provides a comfortable yet
> responsive ride.
>
> Remember the name "Unobtainium" - ask for it at your LBS today.

The diatomic molecule of Unobtanium is used in Oakley sunglasses to hold them on your face. It
feels like rubber. It has VERY good vibration damping qualities. The new unobtanium (not diatomic)
forks on the market dampen vibrations up to 5x10^3 times better than the wriggly carbon ones you
get now. Matt
 
ajames54 <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:25:51 -0500, "Belij3" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >But just wait till they use utopiam to make a frame. B
> utopiam and unobtanium are really the same material...chemically identical... just different
> manufactures names for the same alloy.

No no no! Utopiam is a different isotope of Nonexistium.. Unobtanium has similar properties, but is
a different material, made by a company from a different country. Matt
 
[email protected] (Rik O'Shea) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> jeff_ca <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > I have an old CroMo that has served me well but now it's time to upgrade. My pocketbook likes
> > the Aluminum bike but I've been told that since I'm a big guy, 6' 215 lbs, that aluminum may not
> > give me a good ride. I have been told to get carbon or titanium. What is you take on this?
> >
> > I'd like to hear from the experienced riders that put on lots of miles. Things to consider are.
> >
> > 1. Comfort
> > 2. Weight
> > 3. Flexibility
> > 4. Durability
> > 5. Cost 6Upgradability
> >
> > Thanks to all that respond.
> >
> > Jeff
>
>
Jeff - go to http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_framematerials.html

it may assist you whilst pondering your quandry.
 
> You are right that tires are the most important aspect of this. The bike
in
> question has 1.5 inch slicks on it with 60 lbs pressure. Far from a
700X19
> with a 140 lbs in it. But a switch from 700X23 to 700X28 is going to give
more
> "un-bang" for the buck than a switch to a more "compliant" frame.
>
> Tom Gibb <[email protected]>

Funny thing is I agree with y'all on this, but no one seems to hear what I'm saying.

Take the same parts and xfer them between two different bikes, say AL and 853 and there WILL be
differences. Change the tires to 28cs on the AL bike and leave the 23c tires on the 853 bike and
surprise! the AL bike will probably ride softer. Do it the other way and the 853 bike will probably
ride softer.

This DOES NOT change the fact that changing out the same parts between two bikes means that the
differences in ride are due to frame/fork differences. Whether it is slight geometry changes or
tubing diameters I don't know.

Mike
 
<snip>
> And I really hope that is what the discussion is all about. HOW MUCH effect does it have.. and
> we're back to "what is the best colour". I will not say "Carbon Fiber dampens vibration better
> than Aluminum therfore it is more comfortable" but I will say with 100% assurance "Carbon Fiber
> dampens vibration better than Aluminum"
>
> How much is a measurable amount but it is highly dependant on the form of the construct ... But
> material CHOICE does have an effect, it may very well be negligable but it IS there.

You're pissing up a rope here. The "experts" have already made up their minds and no one on usenet
is going to change their minds. Lord knows I've tried to get them to think about this with little
luck. Maybe you'll have a better chance...

Mike
 
On 22 Nov 2003 16:11:28 -0800, [email protected] (Matt J) made this cogent remark :

>ajames54 <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:25:51 -0500, "Belij3" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >But just wait till they use utopiam to make a frame. B
>> utopiam and unobtanium are really the same material...chemically identical... just different
>> manufactures names for the same alloy.
>
>No no no! Utopiam is a different isotope of Nonexistium.. Unobtanium has similar properties, but is
>a different material, made by a company from a different country. Matt

DAMN! Your right! (as close to exactly right as I can make it)

Thanks for the clarification.
 
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:00:42 -0800, "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> made this cogent remark :

>
>
><snip>
>> And I really hope that is what the discussion is all about. HOW MUCH effect does it have.. and
>> we're back to "what is the best colour". I will not say "Carbon Fiber dampens vibration better
>> than Aluminum therfore it is more comfortable" but I will say with 100% assurance "Carbon Fiber
>> dampens vibration better than Aluminum"
>>
>> How much is a measurable amount but it is highly dependant on the form of the construct ... But
>> material CHOICE does have an effect, it may very well be negligable but it IS there.
>
>You're pissing up a rope here. The "experts" have already made up their minds and no one on usenet
>is going to change their minds. Lord knows I've tried to get them to think about this with little
>luck. Maybe you'll have a better chance...
>
>Mike
>
To be perfectly honest I don't really expect to convince "the experts". There are still people out
there who will argue the earth is flat or that NASA was all faked, nothing I do will change their
minds. But not everyone has their mind made up.
 
"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:

>> How much is a measurable amount but it is highly dependant on the form of the construct ... But
>> material CHOICE does have an effect, it may very well be negligable but it IS there.
>
>You're pissing up a rope here. The "experts" have already made up their minds and no one on usenet
>is going to change their minds. Lord knows I've tried to get them to think about this with little
>luck. Maybe you'll have a better chance...

Mike, I think you're the one urinating up the hemp... He said the "effect may very well be
negligable", and that's precisely what us "experts" have been saying for years.

We're always open to anyone who can come up with a reason - any reason
- to think differently (one not entirely based on one's perceptions, but on some link - however
tenuous - to the physical realities involved). After all, they're called the laws of physics, not
the mostly true suggestions of physics.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Ed Chait:

>
> "David Reuteler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Ed Chait <[email protected]> wrote:
> > : I think having a healthy awareness of it does make a difference in my subjective observations.
> >
> > sure, in the complete opposite direction.
> > --
> > david reuteler [email protected]
>
>
> We are always going to approach things with some degree of bias, but all I can do is be as honest
> with myself as possible.
>
> The frames I rode transmitted different amounts of vibration, honestly.
>
> Now, whether you believe me or not is of no concern to me.
>

But of course it is of concern to you. Otherwise, why bother posting to this newsgroup? You're
hoping that if you convince someone else of your fantasy, it won't sound quite as much the ********
that it is now, even to yourself.

This is rec.bicycles.tech. Your posts are better suited to rec.bicycles.jokes.
 
ajames54:

> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:25:04 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> made this cogent remark :
>
> >ajames54:
> >
> >> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:14:16 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Ed Chait:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >> news:[email protected]...
>
> (the reaponse evolved.. feel free to skip to the bottom)
>
> >
> >> There is a great deal of information on the vibration
> >> dampening/transmission qualities of differing materials..
> >
> >Relate that to bicycle frames in quantitative terms and you'd start getting somewhere.
>
> So while it is understood that gray cast iron dampens vibration far more effectively than steel,
> and that Carbon fiber is far more effective than Aluminum. For you that is irrelevant because the
> tests were not specifically done on bicycles? Seriously this may sound sarcastic but I really want
> to know why a body of knowledge that is fully documented in engineering becomes a myth when it is
> applied to cycling (though it is not the only one that's for sure)

The issue that you skip to simplify the justification for your beliefs is that damping properties of
materials depend to a great extent on the geometry, dimensions, and configuration of the component.
For example, exciting a cantilever beam on its free end is going to elicit a much more significant
response than exciting it in the axial direction by applying an axial load on its free end, whatever
material you use. Vibration response of an ends-supported beam loaded in the middle is going to be
different than if it is loaded on the ends. The direction of the fibres in carbon composites
significantly affect the vibration transmission of carbon matrix components. So when you freely
dispense with terms like "dampens vibration more effectively", "far more effectively", without
considering the nature and conditions (or quantitative results) under which these "tests" have been
performed, you're just taking a leap of faith straight on to the manufacturers' cash registers that
the test results apply directly to the rigid geometry of bicycle frames.
>
> >
> >> There is no small amount of medical information regarding the effects of both high and low
> >> frequency vibrations on health.
> ><- snip ->
> >
> >Irrelevant.
>
> Why irrelevant?

Medical data on effects of vibration on the body is irrelevant to whether vibrations are
noticeably/significantly altered by bike frame material alone.

> do you believe that there is no vibration when riding? or that the vibrations felt when riding are
> some how different that any other vibration? Or that they have no impact on someones subjective
> "comfort"

I can't begin to understand how you are relating these things to the issue. Either you're trying
to introduce red herrings, or you're just completely on the wrong track. In any case, don't change
the subject.

> >Feeling the difference is one thing, attributing (and proving) that to a specific cause (frame
> >material) is quite another.
>
> the vibration is not caused by the frame (material)... the vibration is caused by riding the bike
> on an uneven surface...(heck you even call that a brilliant observation bellow)...

Yes, brilliant in the most opposite sense of the word. It would have taken a lot of courage to
pronounce something as obvious as you did, and make it out to be a new revelation. Courage, or just
lack of awareness.

> The vibration is transmitted through the frame to the rider. Different materials transmit
> vibration differently. You stipulate to all of these points in the bit I just snipped for brevity.
> but then you go on to say...

Er, this is where you get derailed. Your proclamation that "Different materials transmit vibration
differently", while true, does_not_imply nor does it follow that bicycle frames of different
materials will have a noticeable/significant effect on vibration transmission. Simply stating that
phrase does not make your beliefs true in whatsoever way, when it comes to bike frames.

> >Sure. Foam dampens vibrations quite effectively. Talk about materials in the form of bicycle
> >frames though, because that's what the issue is.
>
> Once again it looks like you are saying that a fact well documented scientifically does not apply
> to bicyles simply because it has never been tested specifically on bicycles.

And once again you fail to understand that since you have no idea what these tests are, nor of how
the results can be translated to different events with different components under different
conditions, you make an unproven generalisation when you apply it to bike frames with rigid
geometries.

Analogy: tyres with metal studs give excellent traction when used in Alaskan winters, much better
than conventional tyres. Therefore spiked tyres will also give excellent traction and be better than
conventional tyres everywhere else in the world.

> >> It is far more accurate to say that frame material CAN affect comfort than it is to say it
> >> does not.
> >
> >How can you qualify that as "more accurate", when you have absolutely no scientific proof?
> >Rephrase that to "It is fair to guess that frame material..."; now THAT is a more accurate
> >statement.
>
> More accurate than"there is no effect. Full stop."? Absolutely ... it is a property of the
> material, the material does not care what use it is put to. I can say with 100% certanty that
> three bikes which are absolutely identical in all respects except frame material will each
> transmit vibration differently.

This is quite different to what you term "comfort". You're twisting words around to suit your
argument. Your statement was about "comfort", ie _noticeable_ change in vibration transmission, and
_not_ whether there is an absolute change in vibration transmission.

> I will happily grant the fact that different production methods/ material demensions have in some
> cases a far greater effect on vibration transmission than material choice alone.

Add to that the geometry and nature of the loading, and you'll be on the right track.

> But the choices are teid together in many cases so..

This is irrelevant to examining the issue whether frame material alone is able to
significantly/noticeably affect vibration under load.

>
> >Lack of scientific proof makes that idea more accurately dismissed than accepted.
> >
> The only point in this whole discussion that lacks "scientific proof" is whether or not road
> vibration transmitted through the frame of a bicycle affects comfort..(which is why I left the
> little tags in there for arguements sake) and if so how much .. and that is really what it comes
> down to.

So stick to this point and avoid all the asides and red herrings, and you're left with absolutely no
proof that frame material affects "comfort".

> And I really hope that is what the discussion is all about. HOW MUCH effect does it have.. and
> we're back to "what is the best colour".

No, it's "what is noticeable and what is not". To examine this question, you need to show
quantitatively just how much damping differences there are between bike frames of different
materials. To examine _this_ , you need to test bike frames under typical loads, not coupons or
other dissimilar test components with no resemblance whatsoever to what's under discussion, and use
the quantitative results to prove or disprove whether the differences are noticeable or not.

> will not say "Carbon Fiber dampens vibration better than Aluminum therfore it is more comfortable"
> but I will say with 100% assurance "Carbon Fiber dampens vibration better than Aluminum"

But this has not been the thrust of your previous posts; instead you insist on assuming noticeable
differences without quantifying your assumption.

> How much is a measurable amount but it is highly dependant on the form of the construct ... But
> material CHOICE does have an effect, it may very well be negligable but it IS there.

And there we have it. You've so far argued that it's noticeable, but it's good that you have finally
admitted the likely possibility that it is _negligible_ . If you had stated this before, you would
have saved a lot of effort defending the indefensible.
 
"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Ed Chait:
>
> >
> > "David Reuteler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Ed Chait <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > : I think having a healthy awareness of it does make a difference in
my
> > > : subjective observations.
> > >
> > > sure, in the complete opposite direction.
> > > --
> > > david reuteler [email protected]
> >
> >
> > We are always going to approach things with some degree of bias, but all
I
> > can do is be as honest with myself as possible.
> >
> > The frames I rode transmitted different amounts of vibration, honestly.
> >
> > Now, whether you believe me or not is of no concern to me.
> >
>
> But of course it is of concern to you. Otherwise, why bother posting to this newsgroup? You're
> hoping that if you convince someone else of your fantasy, it won't sound quite as much the
> ******** that it is now, even to yourself.
>
> This is rec.bicycles.tech. Your posts are better suited to rec.bicycles.jokes.
>
>

I'm just expressing what I believe with no expectations attached. This shouldn't be too difficult a
concept to understand.

In addition, if you were secure in what you believe, my comments would not provoke you so much.

What's really wrong Jose?

Ed Chait
 
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 19:54:30 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> made this cogent remark :

>ajames54:
>
>> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:25:04 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> made this cogent remark :
>>
>> >ajames54:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:14:16 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Ed Chait:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:[email protected]...
>>
Look guy I don't know if I ****** on your religion or what but all I've said through out this whole
thread is that there is more reason to believe that there could very well be an effect due to frame
material rather than there is none....

I feel somehow like I've been living in the Monty Python arguement sketch. You're the one claiming
that there is no effect so where is YOUR proof? What scientific facts support the premise that frame
material has no effect on comfort?
 
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:23:43 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>ajames54 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>It's the classic "princess and the pea" scenario. We say you can't feel the pea, you claim that
>there are valid reasons why you can, but can't explain how.
>
>Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Not quite... your claim is that because you can't feel the pea it isn't there. (not you specifically
but you know what I mean)

I have no problem with someone saying "In my experience there is no significant difference." Or even
"yeah there is a pea but...nobody has been able to prove.."

But the pea is there ...

As an aside...

Two bikes identical in all respects including material, except one uses 1' tube and one uses 2"
tube... will they have identical ride qualities?
 
ajames54 <[email protected]> wrote:

>Look guy I don't know if I ****** on your religion or what but all I've said through out this whole
>thread is that there is more reason to believe that there could very well be an effect due to frame
>material rather than there is none....

... and those "reasons" would be what? That's the whole point... no one yet has listed any viable
scenario in which the characteristics of the frame material would SIGNIFICANTLY affect the ride
quality of the "bicycle system". No one claims that there aren't differences when doing
frame-to-frame comparisons on bare frames - but that those differences are of such a small magnitude
that they are swamped by much, much, much, much larger damping ability in the tires, saddle, fork,
stem, bars, bar tape, gloves, shorts etc.

It's the classic "princess and the pea" scenario. We say you can't feel the pea, you claim that
there are valid reasons why you can, but can't explain how.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Why, aluminum, of course.

(After all, I own three bikes made of it, so it MUST be best...right?!?)

Bill "glad I could clear up this convoluted thread" S.
 
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 02:56:48 GMT, "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Why, aluminum, of course. (After all, I own three bikes made of it, so it MUST be best...right?!?)
>Bill "glad I could clear up this convoluted thread" S.

Bill, I can't imagine where we'd be without you. Probably face down in a gutter somewhere, or
beating a dead horse.

Umm...right, that describes most of us anyway.
--
Rick Onanian
 
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