Freewheel and hub - bung?

[Westie]

Out hacking around on the bike today practicing my wheelie drops and fell a bit hard. Suddenly
realised that my freewheel wasn't, and there was a lump of grass sticking out of my rear derailleur.
Looks like I've taken a knock squarely on the bit of the derailleur that attaches to the hanger
bracket. I think that it's bent the bracket ever-so slightly and on brief inspection, the axle (or
hub) _seems_ to be bent and preventing the freewheel doing it's thing. ie. spin, spin, jam, crunch,
spin, spin, jam, crunch... The discs don't seemt o be able to be adjusted to stop friction either.
The free wheels crunches and seizes (it's locked solid right now) but shifting works more or less. I
got home OK but had to keep pedalling to ensure chain didn't jam and had mega slippage. Of course it
was because everything is out of alignment slightly.

So, not having had a close look at it myself (had to work within a 1/2hrs time of getting into
house). But I think that hub or derailleur is bung. This is new to me. Where to now? Am I looking at
something serious or have I overlooked the obvious?

Giant NRS2 w/ deore hubs, shimano cassette, LX derailleur mavic x223 disc rims and 190pounds(!) on
top of it.

Hope that this distracts you from world events for a few moments.... Cheers Westie

 

[Bomba]

Westie wrote:
> Out hacking around on the bike today practicing my wheelie drops and fell a bit hard. Suddenly
> realised that my freewheel wasn't, and there was a lump of grass sticking out of my rear
> derailleur. Looks like I've taken a knock squarely on the bit of the derailleur that attaches to
> the hanger bracket. I think that it's bent the bracket ever-so slightly and on brief inspection,
> the axle (or hub) _seems_ to be bent and preventing the freewheel doing it's thing. ie. spin,
> spin, jam, crunch, spin, spin, jam, crunch... The discs don't seemt o be able to be adjusted to
> stop friction either. The free wheels crunches and seizes (it's locked solid right now) but
> shifting works more or less. I got home OK but had to keep pedalling to ensure chain didn't jam
> and had mega slippage. Of course it was because everything is out of alignment slightly.
>
> So, not having had a close look at it myself (had to work within a 1/2hrs time of getting into
> house). But I think that hub or derailleur is bung. This is new to me. Where to now? Am I looking
> at something serious or have I overlooked the obvious?

You really need to have a proper look at the wheel - take it out of the frame first. Total seizing
is usually associated with your bearings being totally borked. Look carefully at the axle, the
freehub body and the hub, specifically the bearing cups.

My guess is that there's little / no damage to the mech or hanger, probably just the hub. I'd bet
that it's either a bent / snapped axle, or you've busted the bearing cups in the hub. All your other
symptoms are likely a result of the hub damage. Best case scenario you have to replace an axle.
Worst case scenario you need to replace the hub.

> Giant NRS2 w/ deore hubs, shimano cassette, LX derailleur mavic x223 disc rims and 190pounds(!) on
> top of it.
>
> Hope that this distracts you from world events for a few moments....

Why? Is something interesting happening?

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/ambfaq.htm

b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm

 

[Spademan O----L]

"Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Out hacking around on the bike today practicing my wheelie drops and fell
a
> bit hard. Suddenly realised that my freewheel wasn't, and there was a
lump
> of grass sticking out of my rear derailleur. Looks like I've taken a
knock
> squarely on the bit of the derailleur that attaches to the hanger bracket. I think that it's bent
> the bracket ever-so slightly and on brief inspection, the axle (or hub) _seems_ to be bent and
> preventing the freewheel doing it's thing. ie. spin, spin, jam, crunch, spin, spin,
jam,
> crunch... The discs don't seemt o be able to be adjusted to stop friction either. The free wheels
> crunches and seizes (it's locked solid right now) but shifting works more or less. I got home OK
> but had to keep pedalling
to
> ensure chain didn't jam and had mega slippage. Of course it was because everything is out of
> alignment slightly.
>
> So, not having had a close look at it myself (had to work within a 1/2hrs time of getting into
> house). But I think that hub or derailleur is bung. This is new to me. Where to now? Am I looking
> at something serious or
have
> I overlooked the obvious?
>
> Giant NRS2 w/ deore hubs, shimano cassette, LX derailleur mavic x223 disc rims and 190pounds(!) on
> top of it.
>
> Hope that this distracts you from world events for a few moments.... Cheers Westie
>
>

It sounds like you have indeed bent your rear mech hanger. If its replaceable then you should be
able to order a new one for a couple of quid, if not then we'll shortly be answering questions on
which new frames are best.....

 

[Spademan O----L]

> You really need to have a proper look at the wheel - take it out of the frame first. Total seizing
> is usually associated with your bearings being totally borked. Look carefully at the axle, the
> freehub body and the hub, specifically the bearing cups.
>
> My guess is that there's little / no damage to the mech or hanger, probably just the hub. I'd bet
> that it's either a bent / snapped axle, or you've busted the bearing cups in the hub. All your
> other symptoms are likely a result of the hub damage. Best case scenario you have to replace an
> axle. Worst case scenario you need to replace the hub.
>

Oh yeah! well we'll soon see about that, posting conflicting advice indeed! Care to make it
interesting? I bet 3 used inner tubes, a couple of rounded allen keys and a purple DCD that its the
mech hangar.

Steve E.

 

[Bomba]

spademan o---[) * wrote:
>>You really need to have a proper look at the wheel - take it out of the frame first. Total seizing
>>is usually associated with your bearings being totally borked. Look carefully at the axle, the
>>freehub body and the hub, specifically the bearing cups.
>>
>>My guess is that there's little / no damage to the mech or hanger, probably just the hub. I'd bet
>>that it's either a bent / snapped axle, or you've busted the bearing cups in the hub. All your
>>other symptoms are likely a result of the hub damage. Best case scenario you have to replace an
>>axle. Worst case scenario you need to replace the hub.
>>
>
>
> Oh yeah! well we'll soon see about that, posting conflicting advice indeed!

A bent mech hanger wouldn't cause all of the problems he's talking about. The discs rubbing on the
other side of the wheel, for instance.

> Care to make it interesting?

Go on then.

I bet 3 used inner tubes, a couple of rounded
> allen keys and a purple DCD that its the mech hangar.

A 20" presta-valved tube, loads of brand new 4mm allen keys (Ikea's great, in't it?), a pair of
commuter pedals and a couple of pints says it's primarily hub / axle related.

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/ambfaq.htm

b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm

 

[Michael Dart]

"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> spademan o---[) * wrote:
> >>You really need to have a proper look at the wheel - take it out of the frame first. Total
> >>seizing is usually associated with your bearings being totally borked. Look carefully at the
> >>axle, the freehub body and the hub, specifically the bearing cups.
> >>
> >>My guess is that there's little / no damage to the mech or hanger, probably just the hub. I'd
> >>bet that it's either a bent / snapped axle, or you've busted the bearing cups in the hub. All
> >>your other symptoms are likely a result of the hub damage. Best case scenario you have to
> >>replace an axle. Worst case scenario you need to replace the hub.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Oh yeah! well we'll soon see about that, posting conflicting advice
indeed!
>
> A bent mech hanger wouldn't cause all of the problems he's talking about. The discs rubbing on the
> other side of the wheel, for instance.
>
> > Care to make it interesting?
>
> Go on then.
>
> I bet 3 used inner tubes, a couple of rounded
> > allen keys and a purple DCD that its the mech hangar.
>
> A 20" presta-valved tube, loads of brand new 4mm allen keys (Ikea's great, in't it?), a pair of
> commuter pedals and a couple of pints says it's primarily hub / axle related.
>

My money...er...spare parts and tools...um..is on your assessment Jon. ;^)

Mike

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

bomba <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> spademan o---[) * wrote:
> >>You really need to have a proper look at the wheel - take it out of the frame first. Total
> >>seizing is usually associated with your bearings being totally borked. Look carefully at the
> >>axle, the freehub body and the hub, specifically the bearing cups.
> >>
> >>My guess is that there's little / no damage to the mech or hanger, probably just the hub. I'd
> >>bet that it's either a bent / snapped axle, or you've busted the bearing cups in the hub. All
> >>your other symptoms are likely a result of the hub damage. Best case scenario you have to
> >>replace an axle. Worst case scenario you need to replace the hub.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Oh yeah! well we'll soon see about that, posting conflicting advice
indeed!
>
> A bent mech hanger wouldn't cause all of the problems he's talking about. The discs rubbing on the
> other side of the wheel, for instance.
>
> > Care to make it interesting?
>
> Go on then.
>
> I bet 3 used inner tubes, a couple of rounded
> > allen keys and a purple DCD that its the mech hangar.
>
> A 20" presta-valved tube, loads of brand new 4mm allen keys (Ikea's great, in't it?), a pair of
> commuter pedals and a couple of pints says it's primarily hub / axle related.

I say it's both - busted/bent axle or shafted hub/bearings and a bent mech hanger.

Shaun aRe

 

[Spademan O----L]

"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> spademan o---[) * wrote:
> >>You really need to have a proper look at the wheel - take it out of the frame first. Total
> >>seizing is usually associated with your bearings being totally borked. Look carefully at the
> >>axle, the freehub body and the hub, specifically the bearing cups.
> >>
> >>My guess is that there's little / no damage to the mech or hanger, probably just the hub. I'd
> >>bet that it's either a bent / snapped axle, or you've busted the bearing cups in the hub. All
> >>your other symptoms are likely a result of the hub damage. Best case scenario you have to
> >>replace an axle. Worst case scenario you need to replace the hub.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Oh yeah! well we'll soon see about that, posting conflicting advice
indeed!
>
> A bent mech hanger wouldn't cause all of the problems he's talking about. The discs rubbing on the
> other side of the wheel, for instance.
>
> > Care to make it interesting?
>
> Go on then.
>
> I bet 3 used inner tubes, a couple of rounded
> > allen keys and a purple DCD that its the mech hangar.
>
> A 20" presta-valved tube loads of brand new 4mm allen keys (Ikea's great, in't it?), a pair of
> commuter pedals and a couple of pints says it's primarily hub / axle related.
>

Well I ain't gonna reveal my cards too soon, but I reckon the wheel could just have moved in the
drop-out a bit. I just can't see a bent axle coming from a knock like that. Unless it was already
cracked and the knock has shifted it?

I'll up the ante with a maching pair of fluorescent yellow bottle holders, complete with a mouldy
looking syncros waterbottle.

Steve E.

 

[Bomba]

spademan o---[) * wrote:

> Well I ain't gonna reveal my cards too soon, but I reckon the wheel could just have moved in the
> drop-out a bit. I just can't see a bent axle coming from a knock like that. Unless it was already
> cracked and the knock has shifted it?

I agree, damaging an axle is difficult without a peg attached. I'd actually tend more towards the
failure of the hub, but I'm just covering my bases

> I'll up the ante with a maching pair of fluorescent yellow bottle holders, complete with a mouldy
> looking syncros waterbottle.

Hmm, most of my old bike stuff's still in my folks' garage. Are blank CD-R's an acceptable
bargaining chip?

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/ambfaq.htm

b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm

 

[Spademan O----L]

"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> spademan o---[) * wrote:
>
> > Well I ain't gonna reveal my cards too soon, but I reckon the wheel
could
> > just have moved in the drop-out a bit. I just can't see a bent axle
coming
> > from a knock like that. Unless it was already cracked and the knock has shifted it?
>
> I agree, damaging an axle is difficult without a peg attached. I'd actually tend more towards the
> failure of the hub, but I'm just covering my bases
>
> > I'll up the ante with a maching pair of fluorescent yellow bottle
holders,
> > complete with a mouldy looking syncros waterbottle.
>
> Hmm, most of my old bike stuff's still in my folks' garage. Are blank CD-R's an acceptable
> bargaining chip?
>
Only if you drill 5 holes in them and market them as shiny lightweight ALLOY bashrings.

 

[Westie]

"Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Out hacking around on the bike today practicing my wheelie drops and fell
a
> bit hard. Suddenly realised that my freewheel wasn't, and there was a
lump
> of grass sticking out of my rear derailleur. Looks like I've taken a
knock
> squarely on the bit of the derailleur that attaches to the hanger bracket. I think that it's bent
> the bracket ever-so slightly and on brief inspection, the axle (or hub) _seems_ to be bent and
> preventing the freewheel doing it's thing. ie. spin, spin, jam, crunch, spin, spin,
jam,
> crunch... The discs don't seemt o be able to be adjusted to stop friction either. The free wheels
> crunches and seizes (it's locked solid right now) but shifting works more or less. I got home OK
> but had to keep pedalling
to
> ensure chain didn't jam and had mega slippage. Of course it was because everything is out of
> alignment slightly.
>
> So, not having had a close look at it myself (had to work within a 1/2hrs time of getting into
> house). But I think that hub or derailleur is bung. This is new to me. Where to now? Am I looking
> at something serious or
have
> I overlooked the obvious?
>
> Giant NRS2 w/ deore hubs, shimano cassette, LX derailleur mavic x223 disc rims and 190pounds(!) on
> top of it.
>
> Hope that this distracts you from world events for a few moments.... Cheers Westie
>

Have removed wheel from frame and removed quick release spindle. Hanger has a small but definite
twist to it. Hard to tell - all this suspension linkage makes it hard to get a good ol' eyesighted
alignment on anything. I'll get a new hanger anyway. It won't hurt too much. And it'll be handy if I
decide to take bench vice and mallet to existing one.

Freewheel still doesn't like to move much. The ratchet mechanism is working
(ie. hubs spins only one way) but it _feels_ like something to do with some bearings in there.
Instead of a nice smooth free movement it is patchy and sticks and jams. All accompanied with
that bobbley-rough-busted-bearing feel.

Checked out sheldon and a few sites. I'd try it meself but unfortunately I don't have the spanners,
spare parts or much of the time just at the moment (working lotsa double shifts) so it's off on the
courier to the nearest LBS today.

I'll report when I get it the verdict from them. And them there's quite possibly the issue of the
hanger. Hold off on the spare tubes and CDR swapping until then. And anyway, looks like Shaun might
be in the running!

Thanks for the advice

Westie

 

[Bomba]

Westie wrote:

> Have removed wheel from frame and removed quick release spindle. Hanger has a small but definite
> twist to it. Hard to tell - all this suspension linkage makes it hard to get a good ol' eyesighted
> alignment on anything.

The hanger's not bent - your eyesight's out of alignment!

> I'll get a new hanger anyway. It won't hurt too much. And it'll be handy if I decide to take bench
> vice and mallet to existing one.
>
> Freewheel still doesn't like to move much. The ratchet mechanism is working
> (ie. hubs spins only one way) but it _feels_ like something to do with some bearings in there.
> Instead of a nice smooth free movement it is patchy and sticks and jams. All accompanied with
> that bobbley-rough-busted-bearing feel.

Ha ha, I'm right. I can feel it in me bones.

> Checked out sheldon and a few sites. I'd try it meself but unfortunately I don't have the
> spanners, spare parts or much of the time just at the moment (working lotsa double shifts) so it's
> off on the courier to the nearest LBS today.
>
> I'll report when I get it the verdict from them. And them there's quite possibly the issue of
> the hanger.

No, a bent hanger may have caused some chain problems, but a borked hub is your primary
problem. For sure.

> Hold off on the spare tubes and CDR swapping until then. And anyway, looks like Shaun might be in
> the running!

Shaun's not even in the hunt, he was just jumping on the bandwagon.

 

[Spademan O----L]

> Have removed wheel from frame and removed quick release spindle. Hanger
has
> a small but definite twist to it.

Hurray, um I mean bummer for you obviously....

> Hard to tell - all this suspension linkage makes it hard to get a good ol' eyesighted alignment on
> anything. I'll get a new hanger anyway. It won't hurt too much. And it'll be handy if I decide to
> take bench vice and mallet to existing one.

Heat treated aluminium doesn't take too well to the 'ol bench vice treatment, best to just make it
into a key-chain or something. Then you could wager it in some crazy attempt to diagnose a
mechanical problem from 5000 miles away...

> Freewheel still doesn't like to move much. The ratchet mechanism is
working
> (ie. hubs spins only one way) but it _feels_ like something to do with
some
> bearings in there. Instead of a nice smooth free movement it is patchy
and
> sticks and jams. All accompanied with that bobbley-rough-busted-bearing feel.

Its at this point that if I were an honest and scrupulous man I should probably give some sensible
advice. So - ignore it, its probably just a bit 'o dirt or something, if you keep riding it it will
go away ;-). Definitely not a busted bearing or ratchet, that would give a rough-bobbley-busted feel
not a boobley-rough-busted one.

>
> Checked out sheldon and a few sites. I'd try it meself but unfortunately I don't have the
> spanners, spare parts or much of the time just at the
moment
> (working lotsa double shifts) so it's off on the courier to the nearest
LBS
> today.

I think freewheels generally aren't user repairable, and are reasonably cheap to replace. Sucks that
you have to courier to the LBS though.

> I'll report when I get it the verdict from them.

Okay, just remember they might tell you its a busted bearing but hey, thats how they make there
money right?

> And them there's quite possibly the issue of the hanger. Hold off on the spare tubes and CDR
> swapping until then. And anyway,
looks
> like Shaun might be in the running!

Trust Shaun, always sitting on the fence. That lad never voices an opinion of his own..

> Thanks for the advice
>

Thanks for a bit of fun, and let us know the final verdict!

Steve E.

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

bomba <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Westie wrote:

> > Hold off on the spare tubes and CDR swapping until then. And anyway,
looks
> > like Shaun might be in the running!
>
> Shaun's not even in the hunt, he was just jumping on the bandwagon.

Not true, you're just ****** because you and Steve were having an 'either-or' battle over it,
and didn't see how obviously likely it was that this sort of accident caused hub/axle _and_
hanger problems.

Shaun aRe

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

spademan o---[) * <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> > And them there's quite possibly the issue of the hanger. Hold off on the spare tubes and CDR
> > swapping until then. And anyway,
> looks
> > like Shaun might be in the running!
>
> Trust Shaun, always sitting on the fence. That lad never voices an opinion of his own..

This is like, 'English Sarcasm' for 'Shaun can't ever keep his opinions to himself' ',;~}

You know me - never scared of having an opinion, in fact so much so, that if I don't have one, I'll
make one up.

> > Thanks for the advice
> >
>
> Thanks for a bit of fun, and let us know the final verdict!

Aye - enquiring minds want to know! (As well as Steve and Bomba).

Shaun aRe

 

[Westie]

"Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Out hacking around on the bike today practicing my wheelie drops and fell
a
> bit hard. Suddenly realised that my freewheel wasn't, and there was a
lump
> of grass sticking out of my rear derailleur. Looks like I've taken a
knock
> squarely on the bit of the derailleur that attaches to the hanger bracket. I think that it's bent
> the bracket ever-so slightly and on brief inspection, the axle (or hub) _seems_ to be bent and
> preventing the freewheel doing it's thing. ie. spin, spin, jam, crunch, spin, spin,
jam,
> crunch... The discs don't seemt o be able to be adjusted to stop friction either. The free wheels
> crunches and seizes (it's locked solid right now) but shifting works more or less. I got home OK
> but had to keep pedalling
to
> ensure chain didn't jam and had mega slippage. Of course it was because everything is out of
> alignment slightly.
>
> So, not having had a close look at it myself (had to work within a 1/2hrs time of getting into
> house). But I think that hub or derailleur is bung. This is new to me. Where to now? Am I looking
> at something serious or
have
> I overlooked the obvious?
>
> Giant NRS2 w/ deore hubs, shimano cassette, LX derailleur mavic x223 disc rims and 190pounds(!) on
> top of it.
>
> Hope that this distracts you from world events for a few moments.... Cheers Westie
>
I've fixed this one myself: The hanger AND derailleur were bent - both a little. The derailler was
causing shifting problems because of a small bend between jockey wheels and the body and a twist
where derailleur bolts to hanger. That meant that the jockey wheels were basically aligned with
different sprockets. Bend the derailleur back into place and a new hanger. That was fixed. Tricky at
first because I had been looking for an obvious bend whereas it was a bend and a twist, neither
obviosuly on the hanger.

Ok the LBS has fixed the wheel: The one of the cones had come loose and worked itself inwards
compressing bearings with obvious consequences. Sometimes it's the simplest things. I was told that
it was good thing that I had picked it up when I did. All fixed apparently. I hope that bearings and
races haven't been damaged...

--
Westie

 

[Michael Dart]

"Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> I've fixed this one myself: The hanger AND derailleur were bent - both a little. The derailler was
> causing shifting problems because of a small bend between jockey wheels
and
> the body and a twist where derailleur bolts to hanger. That meant that
the
> jockey wheels were basically aligned with different sprockets. Bend the derailleur back into place
> and a new hanger. That was fixed. Tricky at first because I had been looking for an obvious bend
> whereas it was a bend and a twist, neither obviosuly on the hanger.
>
> Ok the LBS has fixed the wheel: The one of the cones had come loose and worked itself inwards
> compressing bearings with obvious consequences. Sometimes it's the simplest things.
I
> was told that it was good thing that I had picked it up when I did. All fixed apparently. I hope
> that bearings and races haven't been damaged...
>

Yes you are lucky you picked up on it when you did. A buddy gave me a XT hubbed rear wheel to work
on. The cones became loose, (possibly from a bent axle) the axle partially unscrewed the freehub
retaining bolt and the whole mess seized up on a downhill and popped the skewer. (Ping! WTF?) The
wheel actually tried to turn using the dropouts for bearing surfaces. I had to beat the axle out of
the hub with a hammer and the freehub bolt had munged the threads in the hub shell. Totally fooked.

Mike

 

[Spademan O----L]

> I've fixed this one myself: The hanger AND derailleur were bent - both a little. The derailler was
> causing shifting problems because of a small bend between jockey wheels
and
> the body and a twist where derailleur bolts to hanger. That meant that
the
> jockey wheels were basically aligned with different sprockets. Bend the derailleur back into place
> and a new hanger. That was fixed. Tricky at first because I had been looking for an obvious bend
> whereas it was a bend and a twist, neither obviosuly on the hanger.
>
> Ok the LBS has fixed the wheel: The one of the cones had come loose and worked itself inwards
> compressing bearings with obvious consequences. Sometimes it's the simplest things.
I
> was told that it was good thing that I had picked it up when I did. All fixed apparently. I hope
> that bearings and races haven't been damaged...
>
> --
> Westie
>

So the hangar and derailleur were bent in the crash, whereas the hub problems were pre-existing
conditions which cannot be directly related to the crash or any crash related event.

Bomba, I want my 20" presta tube!

Steve E.