Assuming that I have a finite number of hours to base train per week, is better to have lots of short rides or fewer long rides? ie. say 12hrs per week, is 3x4hr better or 6x2hrs better?
Frequency vs duration question
- Thread starter Old n' Lazy
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Do you do any races at or over 4hrs?
If not I'd nail the 2 hours rides in a gear not too far off best 50mile TT pace. Ride them hard but not so so hard that you come back a looking like a drooling idiot...
This season I've been going with something between your options. My weekday rides are typically an hour to an hour and a half ridden at Threshold or Tempo pacing. On Saturdays I typically go pretty long as in four to five hours on the bike. I've been starting those days with a couple of hours on our team ride and then taking a longer way home to add solo distance so it often has some spirited sections in the first couple of hours and then finishes with more Tempo pacing. On Sundays I finish out the week with a couple hours with the intensity dictated by how hard and long I went on Saturday and how well I've recovered but it's usually a Threshold day unless I'm really tired.
Throw in a complete rest day on Monday and a shorter and not too difficult ride on Friday and it typically works out to 10-12 hours per week, includes some 'overdistance' work and plenty of training frequency. So in terms of hours it looks something like:
Mo: 0
Tu: 1 - 1.5
W: 1 - 1.5
Th: 1.5
Fr: .5
Sa: 4 - 5
Su: 1.5 - 3
This plan came about as a reaction to last season when I took on a coach who pushed a lot of short hard efforts and fewer overall hours during the winter build. I had a pretty tough season last year and never really felt my fitness kick in though I was killing it on one to five minute efforts in January and February I was really flat during race season. This season I feel much better, haven't done a single structured short interval though I've gone with attacks and contested sprints or made hard bridging efforts on team rides. I've done plenty of structured long intervals including a steady diet of 1x60 Threshold efforts on Tuesdays. My CTL is already approaching my 2010 high point though it's still below what I reached in 2007-2009 when my results were better and much more consistent. My best 20 minute power is up nearly 15 watts from the peak of last summer and at an all time high.
I've been on this plan steadily since early December after taking a short regrouping break post cyclocross season. It's been a very sustainable build pattern with a steady CTL ramp rate in the 3.5 - 4 points per week range. I've never felt stronger at this time of year and I'm hoping that the lack of short hard intervals will pay off in terms of more base fitness and better psyche as racing gets underway.
Like everything it's part of the ongoing experiment so YMMV but it feels pretty good to me so far. Here's a screenshot of my PMC since I got on this plan in early December.
-Dave
Throw in a complete rest day on Monday and a shorter and not too difficult ride on Friday and it typically works out to 10-12 hours per week, includes some 'overdistance' work and plenty of training frequency. So in terms of hours it looks something like:
Mo: 0
Tu: 1 - 1.5
W: 1 - 1.5
Th: 1.5
Fr: .5
Sa: 4 - 5
Su: 1.5 - 3
This plan came about as a reaction to last season when I took on a coach who pushed a lot of short hard efforts and fewer overall hours during the winter build. I had a pretty tough season last year and never really felt my fitness kick in though I was killing it on one to five minute efforts in January and February I was really flat during race season. This season I feel much better, haven't done a single structured short interval though I've gone with attacks and contested sprints or made hard bridging efforts on team rides. I've done plenty of structured long intervals including a steady diet of 1x60 Threshold efforts on Tuesdays. My CTL is already approaching my 2010 high point though it's still below what I reached in 2007-2009 when my results were better and much more consistent. My best 20 minute power is up nearly 15 watts from the peak of last summer and at an all time high.
I've been on this plan steadily since early December after taking a short regrouping break post cyclocross season. It's been a very sustainable build pattern with a steady CTL ramp rate in the 3.5 - 4 points per week range. I've never felt stronger at this time of year and I'm hoping that the lack of short hard intervals will pay off in terms of more base fitness and better psyche as racing gets underway.
Like everything it's part of the ongoing experiment so YMMV but it feels pretty good to me so far. Here's a screenshot of my PMC since I got on this plan in early December.
-Dave
Thanks for this post Dave. Very helpful. A couple of follow up questions if you don't mind.
1. Are you doing the longer weekend rides as a means of testing Hunter's Breakthrough Ride theory? Or are you doing these for a specific event?
2. I noticed you've got a fairly steady CTL ramp rate. Is that something you feel is important? The reason I ask is that life often "gets in the way" and I end up with lots more ups and downs in my CTL ramp rate. You've also mentioned in the past that you like sharp builds & quick tapers for target events. Have you changed your philosophy?
3. How/when do you fit the TT bike into your weekly training?
4. Does your intensity drop from Tue-Thu? I find I can do 2x20@FTP on Tue & Wed but on Thu I need something less intense like 1x40 TE. Is this your experience as well?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.
Best,
gene r
1. Are you doing the longer weekend rides as a means of testing Hunter's Breakthrough Ride theory? Or are you doing these for a specific event?
2. I noticed you've got a fairly steady CTL ramp rate. Is that something you feel is important? The reason I ask is that life often "gets in the way" and I end up with lots more ups and downs in my CTL ramp rate. You've also mentioned in the past that you like sharp builds & quick tapers for target events. Have you changed your philosophy?
3. How/when do you fit the TT bike into your weekly training?
4. Does your intensity drop from Tue-Thu? I find I can do 2x20@FTP on Tue & Wed but on Thu I need something less intense like 1x40 TE. Is this your experience as well?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.
Best,
gene r
Gene,
It's been a while, good to hear you're still at it.
I haven't changed my philosophy in terms of tapers or short hard builds and CTL peaks but racing hasn't started here yet and I won't be peaking for the early season training races and time trials so the quick dig followed by taper strategy is still a couple of months off.
The really weird thing that keeps me on this pattern is that I've hit my best 20 minute power numbers not once or twice but many times by doing them the day after my 1x60 Threshold workout. I don't claim to understand it but somehow it's like the 1x60 pre fatigues my legs and even though they feel a bit heavy on Wednesday I consistently hammer out big numbers and the RPE is way down. I first noticed this by accident last fall but after seeing the pattern a few times I've gravitated towards this seemingly backwards schedule of 1x60 on Tuesday and 2x20 at higher AP on Wednesday before filling out the midweek block with Tempo on Thursday.
My best 20 minute power on a day not following one of these 1x60 efforts was in the 312 to 315 range for most of 2010, but on days following a full hour at Threshold I've hit 320-330 a handful of times and it almost feels like cheating since my legs don't hurt as much and the twenty minutes goes by really quickly after the full hour day. Weird but that's what I've been playing with and it's still working. I've tried a couple of more conventional 2x20 days after a rest day or after a moderate Tempo day and haven't passed 317 on one of those days yet.
Anyway, I still basically believe that it's easier to do intensity before duration but for some reason the two day block leading with the 1x60 day seems to be working nicely and on the couple of times I've tried to swap that order it hasn't worked as well. Maybe that's just coincidence but even if it's placebo I like seeing the bigger Wednesday numbers and the 1x60 gives me a serious dose of weekly Threshold time that gets my week off to a nice start. Not sure what I'll do when racing starts but for now it's pretty interesting.
Later,
-Dave
It's been a while, good to hear you're still at it.
I'm not targeting a specific event and I have read Hunter's Next Level thoughts and Sam Krieg's ongoing experiment but I decided to try this plan during cross season last year so it sort of predates that input. But sure as I was trying to figure out how to do something different than last season and then read about folks pushing some bigger rides in their schedules it did give me confidence to stick with this approach.
The ramp rate is steady because it's winter and I don't have any races, target or otherwise this time of year. I've also been fortunate that life has cooperated nicely this winter. But that ended last week when I had some big work pressures and then spent a couple of days down with the flu. The unbroken ramp may have contributed to my illness, but it's hard to say as half my coworkers and my wife got sick first so perhaps my number just came up. Either way my TSB has been positive for the past few days for the first time since early December. Cest la vie...
I haven't changed my philosophy in terms of tapers or short hard builds and CTL peaks but racing hasn't started here yet and I won't be peaking for the early season training races and time trials so the quick dig followed by taper strategy is still a couple of months off.
I ride the TT bike two to three days per week, usually on Tempo or Threshold days. I've only had the TT bike outside a few times this season as I really don't like riding it in the rain but I've been riding it on the rollers a lot this winter.
Funny you should ask. I've used that approach for several years and in general think it's a good way to go. Do the intensity and then stretch distance at lower intensities during a multi-day training block. But I've been playing with something a bit different for several months now. Basically I do a full 1x60 Threshold effort on Tuesdays to start my midweek training block. I go over to the track and ride the flat asphalt warmup lane if it's raining or ride the track if it's dry. I go round and round for an hour and usually end up with an IF of .95 or so for an unbroken 60 minutes. On Wednesdays I do a conventional 2x20 L4 session, Thursdays are an hour to an hour and a half of Tempo.
The really weird thing that keeps me on this pattern is that I've hit my best 20 minute power numbers not once or twice but many times by doing them the day after my 1x60 Threshold workout. I don't claim to understand it but somehow it's like the 1x60 pre fatigues my legs and even though they feel a bit heavy on Wednesday I consistently hammer out big numbers and the RPE is way down. I first noticed this by accident last fall but after seeing the pattern a few times I've gravitated towards this seemingly backwards schedule of 1x60 on Tuesday and 2x20 at higher AP on Wednesday before filling out the midweek block with Tempo on Thursday.
My best 20 minute power on a day not following one of these 1x60 efforts was in the 312 to 315 range for most of 2010, but on days following a full hour at Threshold I've hit 320-330 a handful of times and it almost feels like cheating since my legs don't hurt as much and the twenty minutes goes by really quickly after the full hour day. Weird but that's what I've been playing with and it's still working. I've tried a couple of more conventional 2x20 days after a rest day or after a moderate Tempo day and haven't passed 317 on one of those days yet.
Anyway, I still basically believe that it's easier to do intensity before duration but for some reason the two day block leading with the 1x60 day seems to be working nicely and on the couple of times I've tried to swap that order it hasn't worked as well. Maybe that's just coincidence but even if it's placebo I like seeing the bigger Wednesday numbers and the 1x60 gives me a serious dose of weekly Threshold time that gets my week off to a nice start. Not sure what I'll do when racing starts but for now it's pretty interesting.
Later,
-Dave
Great stuff Dave. Thanks for the prompt, thoughtful, and always insightful reply.
Best of luck in 2011!
gene
Best of luck in 2011!
gene
hmmm, I end up doing my 1x60 towards the end of the week. I have been a bit concerned with this since once race season is here it will fall right before race day. I ride with my race group on Saturday mornings when it is nice, maybe I will try the 1x60 on a couple of Fridays before, then switch it to the begining of the week with my shorter intervals towards the end and see if I notice any difference.
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