Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mike Vandeman, Mar 5, 2004.

  1. Have I forgotten anything?

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They are too lazy to walk. Many of them say that using a bike allows them
    to get much farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
    walking. They also maintain constant pressure on land managers, to open
    more and more trails to bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already
    open to them, if they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
    closing trails to bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could only
    be true if they refused to walk. (There's nothing inherently wrong with
    laziness; we all like to save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a
    bicycle to replace automobile use is obviously beneficial. However, by
    the same token, replacing hiking with mountain biking is obviously not
    beneficial.)
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see, rather than
    the quality of their experience. While riding a bike, especially over
    terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be constantly paying attention to
    not crashing. That make it almost impossible to notice much else. By
    contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the sounds and smells all
    the odors of nature and can stop instantly, if he/she finds something
    interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation. A biker has to travel
    several times as far as a hiker, to get the same stimulation as a hiker.
    (And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to travel several times as
    far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several times as far as a
    motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail, especially a
    trail containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not familiar with, is
    very challenging. (But if mountain biking is the high point of your week,
    as it seems to be for many mountain bikers, you must be leading a pretty
    dull life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and competing with
    other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives people to spend more
    money on their bike, and ride it harder and more often. Racing, up to and
    including the Olympics, drives a lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is
    also extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas that are used for
    practice! It is hard to think of any other (legal) use of public lands,
    other than hunting, that is as harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the attraction for
    participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain bikes and mountain
    biking accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make a lot of money
    from promoting mountain biking. Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru)
    promote and sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to sell
    more cars.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip into the
    soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They also create
    V-shaped grooves that make walking difficult or even dangerous. The
    mechanical advantage given by the gears and ball bearings allow a
    mountain biker to travel several times as fast as a hiker. Given their
    increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in vastly increased
    momentum, and hence much greater horizontal (shearing) forces on the
    soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops, starts, and turns.) According
    to Newton, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Mountain
    bikes were built much stronger than other bikes, so that they could
    withstand the greater forces they were subject to on rough trails. These
    same forces, therefore, are being applied to the trails!
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small animals
    and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to
    avoid killing countless animals and plants on and under the trail. They
    have to pay attention to controlling the bike, and can't afford to look
    carefully at what is on the trail, especially when travelling fast. And
    even if they happen to see, for example, a snake, it is hard for them to
    stop in time to avoid killing it.
    c. A hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
    crossing on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other hand,
    simply ride right through the creek bed, crushing any animals or plants
    that happen to be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of photos of
    mountain bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through creeks.
    d. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a hiker. This
    translates into several times the impacts, both on the trail and on the
    wildlife (to say nothing of the other trail users). Existing parklands
    are already inadequate to protect the wildlife that live there. When they
    are crisscrossed by mountain bikers and legal or illegal trails, their
    habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain bikers frequently
    advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more. Have you ever tried to walk that
    far in a day?
    e. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each other on
    narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain biking also
    result in more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by bikers (or
    by hikers and equestrians jumping out of their way).
    f. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and consequently
    exotic plants and fungi, from place to place, resulting in the spread of
    exotic invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    g. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the trails and
    hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for
    their safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails with bikes. (The
    mountain bikers claim that they are simply being selfish and "unwilling
    to share", but actually they have no problem sharing trails with mountain
    bikers; it is only their bikes that are a problem!)
    h. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere, teach children
    and anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment of nature is
    acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect on people's treatment
    of nature.
    i. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have been
    resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a plastic
    matrix or other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton Ridge
    Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)! It's hard to imagine
    that this will have a beneficial effect on the park and its wildlife….

    3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental impact
    than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that make that claim,
    you find that they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain
    biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
    studies are correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would
    still follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
    mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than hikers. Besides
    overlooking distances travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
    wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under normal conditions --
    only at a very slow speed.

    4. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for wildlife
    protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal Utility
    District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California). They both
    restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't do much harm. Somehow
    bicyclists have managed to enjoy their sport for over a hundred years,
    without riding off-road.

    5. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked open.
    Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground
    by mountain bikers.

    6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails, but not
    mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to tell this lie, apparently because
    they think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain bikers
    have exactly the same access to trails that everyone else has! It is only
    their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers were really being
    discriminated against, they could easily go to court to gain access. However …
    they already have access to every trail in the world!

    7. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a taxpayer!
    The public has the right, through its elected representatives, to restrict how
    land is used. A federal court has already ruled that there is no right to
    mountain bike. It is a privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason
    (such as safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails
    (see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

    8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction and trail
    maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by
    killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size of the
    intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover, mountain bikers favor trails that
    are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that provide thrills for
    mountain bikers. Such designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the
    trail) and make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be necessary,
    if bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the main reason why
    trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by hikers require hardly any
    maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park greatly increases its
    cost of maintenance. Nothing is really "free", including trail construction
    and maintenance. (How does the saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to quickly
    summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust in a cell
    phone, than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are already one
    of the safest places you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I
    have never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to
    natural areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-
    moving pieces of machinery, we would stay in the city!

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure
    habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence
    and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
    Tags:


  2. Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped
    for brevity.

    On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Have I forgotten anything?
    >
    >Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    >Vandeman, Ph.D.
    Liar.
    >March 5, 2004
    >
    >1. Why do people mountain bike?
    >a. They are too lazy to walk.
    Liar.
    > Many of them say that using a bike allows them to get much
    > farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
    > walking. They also maintain constant pressure on land
    > managers, to open more and more trails to bikes. Of
    > course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    > they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
    > closing trails to bikes "excludes" them from the parks.
    Liar.

    >b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they
    > can see, rather than the quality of their
    > experience. While riding a bike, especially over
    > terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be
    > constantly paying attention to not crashing. That
    > make it almost impossible to notice much else.
    Liar.
    > By contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    > sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop
    > instantly, if he/she finds something interesting.
    Liar.

    >d. They are interested in building mountain biking
    > skills and competing with other mountain bikers. The
    > thrill of racing drives people to spend more money
    > on their bike, and ride it harder and more often.
    > Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a
    > lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is also
    > extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas
    > that are used for practice!
    Liar.
    >It is hard to think of any other (legal) use of public
    >lands, other than hunting, that is as harmful as
    >mountain biking.
    >
    >2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides
    > the attraction for participants, manufacturers and
    > retailers of mountain bikes and mountain biking
    > accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make
    > a lot of money from promoting mountain biking.
    Liar.
    >Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and
    >sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to
    >sell more cars.
    >
    >3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    >a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion.
    Liar.
    >Knobby tires rip into the soil, loosening it and allowing
    >rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped grooves
    >that make walking difficult or even dangerous.
    Liar.
    >b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
    > step on small animals and plants on the trail. For a
    > mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid
    > killing countless animals and plants on and under
    > the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling
    > the bike, and can't afford to look carefully at what
    > is on the trail, especially when travelling fast.
    Liar.
    > And even if they happen to see, for example, a snake, it
    > is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it.
    Liar.
    >c. A hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid
    > getting wet, by crossing on stepping stones or logs.
    Liar.
    >d. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as
    > far as a hiker. This translates into several times
    > the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife
    > (to say nothing of the other trail users).
    Liar.
    >e. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely
    > pass each other on narrow trails. Therefore,
    > policies that permit mountain biking also result in
    > more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
    > bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of
    > their way).
    Liar.
    >f. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying
    > mud, and consequently exotic plants and fungi, from
    > place to place, resulting in the spread of exotic
    > invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak
    > Death.
    Liar.
    >g. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old
    > off of the trails and hence out of the parks.
    Liar.
    >Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their
    >safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails with bikes.
    Liar.
    >
    >3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    > environmental impact than hiking. Is that true? If you
    > read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that
    > they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and
    > mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for
    > a moment, we assume that the studies are correct in
    > their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would still
    > follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
    > person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much
    > farther than hikers. Besides overlooking distances
    > travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
    > wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under
    > normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed.
    Liar.
    >
    >5. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes,
    > unless marked open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are
    > quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground by
    > mountain bikers.
    Liar.
    >
    >6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
    > on trails, but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love
    > to tell this lie, apparently because they think it will
    > gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain
    > bikers have exactly the same access to trails that
    > everyone else has!
    Liar.
    >It is only their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers
    >were really being discriminated against, they could easily
    >go to court to gain access. However … they already have
    >access to every trail in the world!
    >
    > (see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).
    Liar.
    >
    >8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    > construction and trail maintenance? Trail construction
    > destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by killing
    > plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size
    > of the intervening "islands" of habitat).
    Liar.
    >Trails used only by hikers require hardly any maintenance.
    Liar.
    >Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park greatly increases
    >its cost of maintenance.
    Liar.

    >9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being
    > able to quickly summon help in the event of an
    > emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, than a
    > speeding mountain biker.
    Liar.
    >Besides, natural areas are already one of the safest places
    >you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I
    >have never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid.
    >Most people go to natural areas partly for solitude. If we
    >wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces of machinery,
    >we would stay in the city!
    >
    >===
    >I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    >limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
    >the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    >construction.)
    Liar.
    >
    >http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
    Liar.

    Patzerseescheck

    "What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
    entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
    Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.
     
  3. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote:

    .Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped
    for brevity. . . .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
    Vandeman <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>Have I forgotten
    anything? .> .>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain
    Biking .>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .Liar.

    Liar.

    .>March 5, 2004 .> .>1. Why do people mountain bike? .>a.
    They are too lazy to walk. .Liar. .> Many of them say that
    using a bike allows .>them to get much farther, in the same
    amount of time, than they can by walking. .>They also
    maintain constant pressure on land managers, to open more
    and more .>trails to bikes. Of course, all of these trails
    are already open to them, if .>they choose to walk. They
    also frequently claim that closing trails to bikes
    .>"excludes" them from the parks. .Liar.

    BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.

    .>b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can
    see, rather than .>the quality of their experience. While
    riding a bike, especially over terrain as .>rough as a
    trail, one has to be constantly paying attention to not
    crashing. .>That make it almost impossible to notice much
    else. .Liar. .> By contrast, a hiker feels .>the ground,
    hears all the sounds and smells all the odors of nature and
    can stop .>instantly, if he/she finds something interesting.
    .Liar. . .>d. They are interested in building mountain
    biking skills and competing .>with other mountain bikers.
    The thrill of racing drives people to spend more .>money on
    their bike, and ride it harder and more often. Racing, up to
    and .>including the Olympics, drives a lot of mountain
    biking. Of course, it is also .>extremely harmful to the
    parks and natural areas that are used for practice! .Liar.
    .>It .>is hard to think of any other (legal) use of public
    lands, other than hunting, .>that is as harmful as mountain
    biking. .> .>2. What is driving the sport of mountain
    biking? Besides the attraction for .>participants,
    manufacturers and retailers of mountain bikes and mountain
    biking .>accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides,
    make a lot of money from .>promoting mountain biking. .Liar.
    .>Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote .>and
    sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to
    sell more cars. .> .>3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    .>a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. .Liar.
    .>Knobby tires rip into the .>soil, loosening it and
    allowing rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped
    .>grooves that make walking difficult or even dangerous.
    .Liar. .>b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
    step on small animals .>and plants on the trail. For a
    mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid .>killing
    countless animals and plants on and under the trail. They
    have to pay .>attention to controlling the bike, and can't
    afford to look carefully at what is .>on the trail,
    especially when travelling fast. .Liar. .> And even if they
    happen to see, .>for example, a snake, it is hard for them
    to stop in time to avoid killing it. .Liar. .>c. A hiker,
    when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
    .>crossing on stepping stones or logs. .Liar. .>d. Bikes
    also allow people to travel several times as far as a hiker.
    This .>translates into several times the impacts, both on
    the trail and on the wildlife .>(to say nothing of the other
    trail users). .Liar. .>e. Due to their width and speed,
    bikes can't safely pass each other on .>narrow trails.
    Therefore, policies that permit mountain biking also result
    in .>more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
    bikers (or by hikers and .>equestrians jumping out of their
    way). .Liar. .>f. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for
    carrying mud, and consequently .>exotic plants and fungi,
    from place to place, resulting in the spread of exotic
    .>invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    .Liar. .>g. Mountain biking is driving the very young and
    old off of the trails and .>hence out of the parks. .Liar.
    .>Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their
    .>safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails with bikes.
    .Liar. .> .>3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no
    greater environmental impact .>than hiking. Is that true? If
    you read the "studies" that make that claim, you .>find that
    they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain
    biking, .>but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment,
    we assume that the studies are .>correct in their having
    equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow that
    .>mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
    mountain bikers .>typically travel so much farther than
    hikers. Besides overlooking distances .>travelled, those
    "studies" almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they
    don't .>study mountain biking under normal conditions --
    only at a very slow speed. .Liar. .> .>5. What should the
    policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked open.
    .>Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly
    ripped out of the ground by .>mountain bikers. .Liar. .>
    .>6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
    on trails, but not .>mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love
    to tell this lie, apparently because they .>think it will
    gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain bikers
    have .>exactly the same access to trails that everyone else
    has! .Liar. .>It is only their bikes .>that are banned. If
    mountain bikers were really being discriminated against,
    .>they could easily go to court to gain access. However …
    they already have access .>to every trail in the world! .>
    .> (see .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm). .Liar.
    .> .>8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like
    trail construction and trail .>maintenance? Trail
    construction destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by
    .>killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing
    the size of the .>intervening "islands" of habitat). .Liar.
    .>Trails used only by hikers require hardly any
    .>maintenance. .Liar. .>Therefore, admitting bicycles to a
    park greatly increases its cost .>of maintenance. .Liar. .
    .>9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to quickly .>summon help in the event of an
    emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, .>than a
    speeding mountain biker. .Liar. .>Besides, natural areas are
    already one of the .>safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have .>never witnessed
    any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to
    natural .>areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be
    around large, fast-moving pieces .>of machinery, we would
    stay in the city! .> .>=== .>I am working on creating
    wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .>humans ("pure
    habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>years
    fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .Liar. .>
    .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .Liar. . .
    .Patzerseescheck . ."What is hateful to you, do not to your
    freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go
    forth and learn." .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

    Your point? Practic ewhat you preach.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  4. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Have I forgotten anything?

    Yes, you forgot to use your brain.

    >
    > Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
    > Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004
    >
    > 1. Why do people mountain bike?
    > a. They are too lazy to walk.

    Hikers are too lazy to ride.

    >
    > 3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
    > environmental
    impact
    > than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that
    > make that claim,
    you
    > find that they don't really compare the impacts of hiking
    > and mountain
    biking,
    > but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume
    > that the
    studies are
    > correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it
    > would still follow
    that
    > mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
    > mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than
    > hikers. Besides overlooking
    distances
    > travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
    > wildlife. And they
    don't
    > study mountain biking under normal conditions -- only at a
    > very slow
    speed.
    >

    If you really want to ban something that ruins the
    environment and causes great danger to other trail users,
    ban horses.

    >
    > 8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    > construction and
    trail
    > maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat
    > both directly
    (by
    > killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing
    > the size of the intervening "islands" of habitat).

    The number of trails created by hikers, legally and
    illegally, still far out numbers those created by mtn
    bikers.

    >
    > 9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    > being able to
    quickly
    > summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather
    > trust in a cell
    phone,
    > than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are
    > already one of
    the
    > safest places you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and
    > backpacking, I
    have
    > never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid.

    If so, then why did 8 hikers die in the San Gabriel and San
    Bernardino mountains this winter?

    http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:moKNt_xCB0QJ:members.b-
    oardhost.com/sgva96.html+hikers+die+in+san+bernardino+mountains&hl=en&ie=UTF-
    8

    It sounds like you don't venture farther than your
    neighborhood park.

    Greg
     
  5. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
    crawled out from under his rock in his "pure habitat" and to spew out:

    >On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >.Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped
    >for brevity. . . .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
    >Vandeman <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>Have I forgotten
    >anything? .> .>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain
    >Biking .>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .Liar.
    >
    >Liar.
    >
    BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
    >.> Many of them say that using a bike allows .>them to
    >get much farther, in the same amount of time, than they
    >can by walking. .>They also maintain constant pressure
    >on land managers, to open more and more .>trails to
    >bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already open
    >to them, if .>they choose to walk. They also frequently
    >claim that closing trails to bikes .>"excludes" them
    >from the parks. .Liar.
    >
    >BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.
    WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed Mike, you
    are expanding your horizons. Of course with those darn
    filthy humans still running around the horizon's getting
    harder to see, AIN'T IT!!

    >. .Patzerseescheck . ."What is hateful to you, do not to
    >your freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is
    >commentary. Go forth and learn." .Hillel the Elder, First
    >Cent. B.C.E.
    >
    >Your point? Practic ewhat you preach.

    I do practice what I preach, Mike. I laugh with people all
    the time when they poke fun at me. I have big ears, a really
    big head, a huge belly, etc. I can laugh at me with the best
    of them. It usually ticks them off because I don't get
    angry. I don't find that hateful, I find it funny.

    >===
    >I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    >limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
    >the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    >construction.)
    >
    >http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    Patzerseescheck

    "What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
    entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
    Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.
     
  6. Michael Paul

    Michael Paul Guest

    Oh oh.

    the I know you are but what am I defense! very nice

    Michael

    <snip> useless drivel
     
  7. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:10:31 GMT, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

    . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    .news:[email protected]... .> Have
    I forgotten anything? . .Yes, you forgot to use your brain.
    . .> .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking .>
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .> March 5, 2004 .> .> 1. Why do
    people mountain bike? .> a. They are too lazy to walk. .
    .Hikers are too lazy to ride. . .> .> 3. Mountain bikers
    claim that their sport has no greater environmental .impact
    .> than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that
    make that claim, .you .> find that they don't really compare
    the impacts of hiking and mountain .biking, .> but only the
    impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
    .studies are .> correct in their having equivalent impacts
    per foot, it would still follow .that .> mountain biking has
    far greater impact per person, since mountain bikers .>
    typically travel so much farther than hikers. Besides
    overlooking .distances .> travelled, those "studies" almost
    all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they .don't .> study
    mountain biking under normal conditions -- only at a very
    slow .speed. .> . .If you really want to ban something that
    ruins the environment and causes .great danger to other
    trail users, ban horses.

    They have more right to be there than machines do. DUH!

    .> 8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
    construction and .trail .> maintenance? Trail construction
    destroys wildlife habitat both directly .(by .> killing
    plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size of
    the .> intervening "islands" of habitat). . .The number of
    trails created by hikers, legally and illegally, still far
    out .numbers those created by mtn bikers.

    So you shouldn't create any new ones.

    .> 9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
    being able to .quickly .> summon help in the event of an
    emergency? I would rather trust in a cell .phone, .> than a
    speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are already
    one of .the .> safest places you can be. In over 50 years of
    hiking and backpacking, I .have .> never witnessed any
    situation requiring emergency aid. . .If so, then why did 8
    hikers die in the San Gabriel and San Bernardino .mountains
    this winter?

    Hit by mountain bikers? That is the first time I have heard
    of that. Mountain bikers die all the time, and they have
    only been in business a couple of decades.

    .http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:moKNt_xCB0QJ:members.-
    boardhost.com/sgva96.html+hikers+die+in+san+bernardino+mountains&hl=en&ie=UTF-
    8 . .It sounds like you don't venture farther than your
    neighborhood park.

    No, I usually don't. And I'm proud of it.

    .Greg .

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  8. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:38:38 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    <[email protected]> .crawled out from under his rock in
    his "pure habitat" and to spew out: . .>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
    14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>.Only
    becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped for
    brevity. .>. .>. .>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
    Vandeman <[email protected]> .>.wrote: .>. .>.>Have I
    forgotten anything? .>.> .>.>Frequently Asked Questions
    about Mountain Biking .>.>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>.Liar.
    .> .>Liar. .> .BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! .>.> Many of
    them say that using a bike allows .>.>them to get much
    farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
    walking. .>.>They also maintain constant pressure on land
    managers, to open more and more .>.>trails to bikes. Of
    course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    .>.>they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
    closing trails to bikes .>.>"excludes" them from the parks.
    .>.Liar. .> .>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.
    .WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed Mike, you
    are .expanding your horizons. Of course with those darn
    filthy humans still .running around the horizon's getting
    harder to see, AIN'T IT!! . . .>. .>.Patzerseescheck .>.
    .>."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is
    the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and
    learn." .>.Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E. .> .>Your
    point? Practic ewhat you preach. . .I do practice what I
    preach, Mike. I laugh with people all the time .when they
    poke fun at me. I have big ears, a really big head, a huge
    .belly, etc. I can laugh at me with the best of them. It
    usually ticks .them off because I don't get angry. I don't
    find that hateful, I find .it funny.

    Sure. "filthy humans" is an expression of love. Right.

    .>=== .>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
    off-limits to .>humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I
    spent the previous 8 .>years fighting auto dependence and
    road construction.) .> .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . .
    .Patzerseescheck . ."What is hateful to you, do not to your
    freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go
    forth and learn." .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  9. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:40:06 +0100, Titan Point <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote: .
    .> Have I forgotten anything? .> .> Frequently Asked
    Questions about Mountain Biking .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .
    ...they have a PhD in stupidity? Crappock should enrol
    immediately. . .> March 5, 2004 .> .[Gratuitous snip] . .>
    3. What harm does mountain biking do? .> a. Most obvious is
    the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip into the .>
    soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. .
    ...and walking boots don't? Of course walking boots are made
    with cotton .wool soles.

    Different subject, and irrelevant.

    .> They also create V-shaped .> grooves that make walking
    difficult or even dangerous. . .Personally I think that
    walkers should be made to look where they're .going. They
    could stub a toe or anything. . .> The mechanical advantage
    .> given by the gears and ball bearings allow a mountain
    biker to travel several .> times as fast as a hiker. Given
    their increased weight (rider plus bike), this .> results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
    .> (shearing) forces on the soil. . ....its not a PhD in
    science then. Ever thought that hikers usually have
    .rucksacks which are at least as heavy as bikes? Naah!

    Not where bikes are allowed. Day packs at the most, MUCH
    lighter than a bike. Who'd want to hike with a bike on their
    back? Come on!

    .> (Witness the skid marks from stops, starts, and .>
    turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. .> Mountain bikes were built much
    stronger than other bikes, so that they could .> withstand
    the greater forces they were subject to on rough trails.
    These same .> forces, therefore, are being applied to the
    trails! . .I blame Newton. He never saw a woman naked, and
    you can see why. . .> b. A hiker must be very careful not to
    accidentally step on small animals .> and plants on the
    trail. . .I often see hikers do this. They tiptoe along the
    footpaths, delicately .avoiding stepping on anything that
    might break.

    Right.

    .> For a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid .>
    killing countless animals and plants on and under the trail.
    They have .> to pay attention to controlling the bike, and
    can't afford to look .> carefully at what is on the trail,
    especially when travelling fast. And .> even if they happen
    to see, for example, a snake, it is hard for them to .> stop
    in time to avoid killing it. c. A hiker, when crossing a
    creek, .> will try to avoid getting wet, by crossing on
    stepping stones or logs. .> Mountain bikers, on the other
    hand, simply ride right through the creek .> bed, crushing
    any animals or plants that happen to be there. . .Those
    creeks are well known to have lots of animals and plants
    that can .survive being stood on, but not ridden over.
    Biology was never my strong .subject.

    There are few animals or plants on top of bare rocks.

    .> Mountain .> biking magazines are full of photos of
    mountain bikers throwing up .> spray, as they barrel through
    creeks. . .This is simply shocking. Did they get wet as
    well? . .> d. Bikes also allow people to .> travel several
    times as far as a hiker. This translates into several .>
    times the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife (to
    say nothing .> of the other trail users). . .Nope.
    Definitely not any PhD involving logic. . .> Existing
    parklands are already inadequate to .> protect the wildlife
    that live there. When they are crisscrossed by .> mountain
    bikers and legal or illegal trails, their habitat becomes
    even .> more inadequate. . .This must be worse than global
    warming. I can see the headlines now: . ."Computer model
    shows 1 million species to become extinct because of
    .mountain biking. President to act" . .> Mountain bikers
    frequently advertise rides of 20-50 .> miles or more. Have
    you ever tried to walk that far in a day? e. Due to .> their
    width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each other on
    narrow .> trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain
    biking also result in .> more habitat destruction, as trails
    are widened by bikers (or by hikers .> and equestrians
    jumping out of their way). . .Shocking, although I will say
    that all the hikers I know barge each other .out of the way
    out of respect for the environment. . .> f. Knobby mountain
    bike tires .> are ideal for carrying mud, and consequently
    exotic plants and fungi, .> from place to place, resulting
    in the spread of exotic invasive species, .> such as weeds
    and Sudden Oak Death. . .Imagine! Stop the Press! Sudden Oak
    Death Spread by Mountain Bike tires! . .Shall we tell the
    President? Mountain bikes are clearly a WMD. Did Saddam
    .have a secret stockpile? . .> g. Mountain biking is driving
    the .> very young and old off of the trails and hence out of
    the parks. Even .> able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear
    for their safety, and don’t .> enjoy sharing the trails with
    bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that .> they are simply
    being selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually .> they
    have no problem sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is
    only .> their bikes that are a problem!) . .Remember those
    equestrians also have horses that tiptoe through the
    .environment. Can you remember ever seeing a horse's hoof on
    a trail? I .can't. The horses also don't weigh anything at
    all. Its a miracle of .evolution, the horse.

    Different subject, and irrelevant.

    .> h. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go
    anywhere, teach .> children and anyone else who sees them
    that the rough treatment of .> nature is acceptable. This
    undoubtedly has a negative effect on people's .> treatment
    of nature. . .Undoubtedly. People who take to mountain bikes
    frequently vote Republican .afterwards. Its a nasty
    consequence, caused by adrenaline. . .> i. In order to
    mitigate bike-caused erosion, park .> managers have been
    resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases .>
    putting a plastic matrix or other exotic material under the
    trail (e.g. .> in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve, near
    Pleasanton, California)! .> It's hard to imagine that this
    will have a beneficial effect on the park .> and its
    wildlife…. .> .Talk about extreme measures! Wow! What about
    a box of tacks? That'll slow .the bastards down. Certainly
    no thought went into just banning the bikes. .Why? Because
    they're not a problem that requires such drastic action.

    Many people think that they ARE.

    .> 3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no .>
    greater environmental .> impact than hiking. Is that true?
    If you read the "studies" that make .> that claim, you find
    that they don't really compare the impacts of .> hiking and
    mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for a .>
    moment, we assume that the studies are correct in their
    having .> equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow
    that mountain biking .> has far greater impact per person,
    since mountain bikers typically .> travel so much farther
    than hikers. Besides overlooking distances .> travelled,
    those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And
    .> they don't study mountain biking under normal conditions
    -- only at a .> very slow speed. . .I've seen mountain
    bikers damn near break the sound barrier on mountains.
    .Especially uphill. .> .> 4. Where should mountain biking
    allowed? A couple of role models for .> wildlife protection
    are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal .> Utility
    District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California).
    .> They both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they
    can't do much .> harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to
    enjoy their sport for over a .> hundred years, without
    riding off-road. . .Then came Kevlar. You know Kevlar is one
    of those inventions created by a .woman? True. .> .> 5. What
    should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless
    marked .> open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and
    repeatedly ripped out of .> the ground by mountain bikers.
    .> .> 6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
    equestrians on trails, .> but not mountain bikers? Mountain
    bikers love to tell this lie, .> apparently because they
    think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth .> is that
    mountain bikers have exactly the same access to trails that
    .> everyone else has! It is only their bikes that are
    banned. If mountain .> bikers were really being
    discriminated against, they could easily go to .> court to
    gain access. However … they already have access to every
    trail .> in the world! . .If Mountain bikers made their
    bikes as heavy as ridden horses, complete .with horse shoe
    shaped tire tracks, and then shit every few yards, would
    .this be acceptable?

    Horses are at least alive. Bikes aren't.

    .> 7. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
    lands? I am a .> taxpayer! The public has the right,
    through its elected representatives, .> to restrict how
    land is used. A federal court has already ruled that .>
    there is no right to mountain bike. It is a privilege, and
    any land .> manager who gives a good reason (such as safety
    or protecting the .> environment) can keep bikes off of
    trails (see .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).
    . .There is no federal right to sing the blues, yet people
    still persist.

    And you are a good example of that.

    .[another snip] . .I'm bored. Somebody else waste some
    electrons on this.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  10. Bb

    Bb Guest

    On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > Have I forgotten anything?

    Apparently you've forgotten what a FAQ is.

    --
    -BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail
    address, at least)
     
  11. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:40:43 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:38:38 GMT, Patzerseescheck
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    ><[email protected]> .crawled out from under his rock in
    >his "pure habitat" and to spew out: . .>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
    >14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>.Only
    >becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped for
    >brevity. .>. .>. .>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
    >Vandeman <[email protected]> .>.wrote: .>. .>.>Have I
    >forgotten anything? .>.> .>.>Frequently Asked Questions
    >about Mountain Biking .>.>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>.Liar.
    >.> .>Liar. .> .BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! .>.> Many of
    >them say that using a bike allows .>.>them to get much
    >farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
    >walking. .>.>They also maintain constant pressure on land
    >managers, to open more and more .>.>trails to bikes. Of
    >course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    >.>.>they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
    >closing trails to bikes .>.>"excludes" them from the parks.
    >.>.Liar. .> .>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.
    >.WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed Mike, you
    >are .expanding your horizons. Of course with those darn
    >filthy humans still .running around the horizon's getting
    >harder to see, AIN'T IT!! . . .>. .>.Patzerseescheck .>.
    >.>."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is
    >the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and
    >learn." .>.Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E. .> .>Your
    >point? Practic ewhat you preach. . .I do practice what I
    >preach, Mike. I laugh with people all the time .when they
    >poke fun at me. I have big ears, a really big head, a huge
    >.belly, etc. I can laugh at me with the best of them. It
    >usually ticks .them off because I don't get angry. I don't
    >find that hateful, I find .it funny.
    >
    >Sure. "filthy humans" is an expression of love. Right.
    It was a joke Mike. Like you. In case you missed the movie
    Planet of the Apes (2001) it was a play on this quote:

    "Attar: Take your stinking hands off me, you damn
    dirty human!"

    I figured you would have gotten that since I bet it's one of
    your favorite movies. You know, the type of movie where
    humans are the bad guys and animals rule the world. Thats
    how it is in your utopian world, right Mike? Do you have
    dreams at night of being an honarary VIP in your "pure
    habitat" world, voted that honor by the animals you have be-
    friended. You walk down the aisles during official
    ceremonies shaking their furry little paws. You stand up and
    give rousing speeches about how bad humans, especially ones
    on mountain bikes, are. All the little furry creatures howl
    and clap and make grunting noises. Is that what it's like in
    your world Mikey.........

    >
    >.>=== .>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
    >off-limits to .>humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help?
    If I help will you GO AWAY??!!??!!

    >(I spent the previous 8 .>years fighting auto dependence
    >and road construction.) .>
    >.>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . . .Patzerseescheck .
    >."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is
    >the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and
    >learn." .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.
    >
    >===
    >I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    >limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
    >the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    >construction.)
    >
    >http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    Patzerseescheck

    "What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
    entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
    Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.
     
  12. On 7 Mar 2004 02:46:32 GMT, BB <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman wrote: .>
    Have I forgotten anything? . .Apparently you've forgotten
    what a FAQ is.

    So you are of course going to enlighten us? This should
    be good....
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  13. On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 02:38:37 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote:

    .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:40:43 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
    18:38:38 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>.On
    Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman
    <[email protected]> .>.crawled out from under his rock in
    his "pure habitat" and to spew out: .>. .>.>On Sat, 06 Mar
    2004 14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .>.>
    .>.>.Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel
    snipped for brevity. .>.>. .>.>. .>.>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
    06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
    .>.>.wrote: .>.>. .>.>.>Have I forgotten anything? .>.>.>
    .>.>.>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    .>.>.>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>.>.Liar. .>.> .>.>Liar. .>.>
    .>.BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! .>.>.> Many of them say
    that using a bike allows .>.>.>them to get much farther, in
    the same amount of time, than they can by walking.
    .>.>.>They also maintain constant pressure on land managers,
    to open more and more .>.>.>trails to bikes. Of course, all
    of these trails are already open to them, if .>.>.>they
    choose to walk. They also frequently claim that closing
    trails to bikes .>.>.>"excludes" them from the parks.
    .>.>.Liar. .>.> .>.>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA
    say. .>.WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed
    Mike, you are .>.expanding your horizons. Of course with
    those darn filthy humans still .>.running around the
    horizon's getting harder to see, AIN'T IT!! .>. .>. .>.>.
    .>.>.Patzerseescheck .>.>. .>.>."What is hateful to you, do
    not to your freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is
    commentary. Go forth and learn." .>.>.Hillel the Elder,
    First Cent. B.C.E. .>.> .>.>Your point? Practic ewhat you
    preach. .>. .>.I do practice what I preach, Mike. I laugh
    with people all the time .>.when they poke fun at me. I have
    big ears, a really big head, a huge .>.belly, etc. I can
    laugh at me with the best of them. It usually ticks .>.them
    off because I don't get angry. I don't find that hateful, I
    find .>.it funny. .> .>Sure. "filthy humans" is an
    expression of love. Right. .It was a joke Mike. Like you.
    .In case you missed the movie Planet of the Apes (2001) it
    was a play .on this quote: . ."Attar: Take your stinking
    hands off me, you damn dirty human!" . .I figured you would
    have gotten that since I bet it's one of your .favorite
    movies. You know, the type of movie where humans are the bad
    .guys and animals rule the world. Thats how it is in your
    utopian .world, right Mike? Do you have dreams at night of
    being an honarary .VIP in your "pure habitat" world, voted
    that honor by the animals you .have be-friended. You walk
    down the aisles during official ceremonies .shaking their
    furry little paws. You stand up and give rousing .speeches
    about how bad humans, especially ones on mountain bikes,
    are. .All the little furry creatures howl and clap and make
    grunting noises. .Is that what it's like in your world
    Mikey......... . .> .>.>=== .>.>I am working on creating
    wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .>.>humans ("pure
    habitat"). Want to help? .If I help will you GO AWAY??!!??!!
    . .>(I spent the previous 8 .>.>years fighting auto
    dependence and road construction.) .>.>
    .>.>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .>. .>.
    .>.Patzerseescheck .>. .>."What is hateful to you, do not to
    your freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is
    commentary. Go forth and learn." .>.Hillel the Elder, First
    Cent. B.C.E. .> .>=== .>I am working on creating wildlife
    habitat that is off-limits to .>humans ("pure habitat").
    Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>years fighting auto
    dependence and road construction.) .>
    .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . . .Patzerseescheck .
    ."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
    entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
    .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

    Did you say something? I thought not.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
  14. Andy Chequer

    Andy Chequer Guest

    "BB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman wrote:
    > > Have I forgotten anything?
    >
    > Apparently you've forgotten what a FAQ is.

    My MV MTB FAQ FAQ goes something like this (I've multiple
    choiced it to make it more interesting)

    1) Who is asking these questions?

    A: Those who want to know the TRUTH about mountain biking.
    B: Nobody. It's just a different way of structuring the
    same old shit.
    C: People who immediately wished they'd talked to that cute
    blonde on the tofu stand instead.

    2) Why are they asking Mike?

    A: Because only I tell the TRUTH about mountain biking.
    B: They aren't because they don't exist
    C: Because there was a queue for the tofu stand and it
    seemed like a good idea at the time..

    3) What do they make of the answers?

    A: They see the TRUTH and go and fight MTBing
    B: Non existent people cannot use usenet to register
    their support
    C: They conclude that all land access advocates are insane,
    get in their SUVs and go home.

    If you answered

    Mostly A's: Stop talking to yourself, you buffoon. Mostly
    B's: You believe that Mike has no support. Shame on you!
    Mostly C's: You're not going back to those beardie weirdie
    meetings again, they're all mad. But you say bikers can go
    several times as far as hikers? Interesting........

    Andy Chequer, and ya can't refute it
     
  15. On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:39:04 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote:

    > .It sounds like you don't venture farther than your
    > neighborhood park.
    >
    > No, I usually don't. And I'm proud of it.

    And you set yourself up as an expert? Good grief! proud of
    never actually going out into the wilderness you so admire,
    and speak of as an expert? How the bloody hell do you know
    all those things you spout are true? (let me guess, "it's
    OBVIOUS".)

    I've been in places that were heavily used for centuries,
    where the trails are worn so deep by human feet that the
    forest is overhead.... And places where you have to work
    very hard to find some traces of at all.... And places where
    you can still see the ruts worn in stone from Roman
    chariots...

    There is a time and place for everything, and your onomaniac
    stance towards mountain biking is ridiculous.

    --Kamus

    --
    o__ | If you're old, eat right and ride a decent bike.
    ,>/'_ | Q. (_)\(_) | Usenet posting`
     
  16. On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:56:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Did you say something? I thought not.
    >===
    >I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
    >limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
    >the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    >construction.)
    >
    >http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    Awwwww, Mikey, an attempt at witty banter. I'm so proud of
    you. Careful with those thoughts though. They might open
    your mind. And if your mind opened just a little, you'd stop
    posting your inane drivel on Usenet. A sad day for us all.

    ***********************************************************-
    **************
    I am working on creating human habitat that is off-limits to
    animals ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 50 years encouraging auto dependence and raising
    money for more road construction.) My dream is that one day
    the entire planet will be nothing but concrete, asphalt, and
    mountain bike trails. Come join me.

    Patzerseescheck

    "What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
    entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
    Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.
     
  17. Gary S .

    Gary S . Guest

    On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:56:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Did you say something? I thought not.
    >===

    "I thought not."

    So you admit that you do not think. And you admit that
    you do not comprehend the postings of those who
    disagree with you.

    This would explain a lot.

    (I am using your methodology of taking random comments out
    of context to prove my point. Since I am using your
    method, it must be the TRUTH. Either that, or your
    methodology is flawed.)

    Please be creative when calling me names this time.

    Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to:
    garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
     
  18. R.White

    R.White Guest

    Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Have I forgotten anything?

    Yeah, you forgot about the hikers who defecate trailside.
    The hikers who pack in food and leave their garbage. The
    hikers who hack away at trees in an attempt to obtain
    firewood. The hikers who walk off trail.
     
  19. Jim Roberts

    Jim Roberts Guest

    R.White wrote:

    > Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>Have I forgotten anything?
    >
    >
    > Yeah, you forgot about the hikers who defecate trailside.
    > The hikers who pack in food and leave their garbage. The
    > hikers who hack away at trees in an attempt to obtain
    > firewood. The hikers who walk off trail.

    Well, I have IBS, and sometimes just have to go. But I
    carry a substantial blue trowel and go well off the road
    and burn my TP under very controlled circumstances. If you
    want, you can help.

    jimbat
     
  20. On 7 Mar 2004 14:45:33 -0800, [email protected] (R.White) wrote:

    .Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>... .>
    Have I forgotten anything? . .Yeah, you forgot about the
    hikers who defecate trailside. .The hikers who pack in
    food and leave their garbage. .The hikers who hack away at
    trees in an attempt to obtain firewood. .The hikers who
    walk off trail.

    All of which is IRRELEVANT to the damage that mountain
    biking does. DUH! I swear you mountain bikers are getting
    stupider by the day.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
    to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
    previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
    construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
     
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