Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking

Have I forgotten anything?

Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
March 5, 2004

1. Why do people mountain bike?
a. They are too lazy to walk. Many of them say that using a bike allows them
to get much farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
walking. They also maintain constant pressure on land managers, to open
more and more trails to bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already
open to them, if they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
closing trails to bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could only
be true if they refused to walk. (There's nothing inherently wrong with
laziness; we all like to save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a
bicycle to replace automobile use is obviously beneficial. However, by
the same token, replacing hiking with mountain biking is obviously not
beneficial.)
b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see, rather than
the quality of their experience. While riding a bike, especially over
terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be constantly paying attention to
not crashing. That make it almost impossible to notice much else. By
contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the sounds and smells all
the odors of nature and can stop instantly, if he/she finds something
interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation. A biker has to travel
several times as far as a hiker, to get the same stimulation as a hiker.
(And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to travel several times as
far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several times as far as a
motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal box.)
c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail, especially a
trail containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not familiar with, is
very challenging. (But if mountain biking is the high point of your week,
as it seems to be for many mountain bikers, you must be leading a pretty
dull life, off of the bike!)
d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and competing with
other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives people to spend more
money on their bike, and ride it harder and more often. Racing, up to and
including the Olympics, drives a lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is
also extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas that are used for
practice! It is hard to think of any other (legal) use of public lands,
other than hunting, that is as harmful as mountain biking.

2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the attraction for
participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain bikes and mountain
biking accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make a lot of money
from promoting mountain biking. Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru)
promote and sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to sell
more cars.

3. What harm does mountain biking do?
a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip into the
soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They also create
V-shaped grooves that make walking difficult or even dangerous. The
mechanical advantage given by the gears and ball bearings allow a
mountain biker to travel several times as fast as a hiker. Given their
increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in vastly increased
momentum, and hence much greater horizontal (shearing) forces on the
soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops, starts, and turns.) According
to Newton, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Mountain
bikes were built much stronger than other bikes, so that they could
withstand the greater forces they were subject to on rough trails. These
same forces, therefore, are being applied to the trails!
b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small animals
and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to
avoid killing countless animals and plants on and under the trail. They
have to pay attention to controlling the bike, and can't afford to look
carefully at what is on the trail, especially when travelling fast. And
even if they happen to see, for example, a snake, it is hard for them to
stop in time to avoid killing it.
c. A hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
crossing on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other hand,
simply ride right through the creek bed, crushing any animals or plants
that happen to be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of photos of
mountain bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through creeks.
d. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a hiker. This
translates into several times the impacts, both on the trail and on the
wildlife (to say nothing of the other trail users). Existing parklands
are already inadequate to protect the wildlife that live there. When they
are crisscrossed by mountain bikers and legal or illegal trails, their
habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain bikers frequently
advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more. Have you ever tried to walk that
far in a day?
e. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each other on
narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain biking also
result in more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by bikers (or
by hikers and equestrians jumping out of their way).
f. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and consequently
exotic plants and fungi, from place to place, resulting in the spread of
exotic invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
g. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the trails and
hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for
their safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails with bikes. (The
mountain bikers claim that they are simply being selfish and "unwilling
to share", but actually they have no problem sharing trails with mountain
bikers; it is only their bikes that are a problem!)
h. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere, teach children
and anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment of nature is
acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect on people's treatment
of nature.
i. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have been
resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a plastic
matrix or other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton Ridge
Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)! It's hard to imagine
that this will have a beneficial effect on the park and its wildlife….

3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental impact
than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that make that claim,
you find that they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain
biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
studies are correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would
still follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than hikers. Besides
overlooking distances travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under normal conditions --
only at a very slow speed.

4. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for wildlife
protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal Utility
District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California). They both
restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't do much harm. Somehow
bicyclists have managed to enjoy their sport for over a hundred years,
without riding off-road.

5. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked open.
Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground
by mountain bikers.

6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails, but not
mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to tell this lie, apparently because
they think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain bikers
have exactly the same access to trails that everyone else has! It is only
their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers were really being
discriminated against, they could easily go to court to gain access. However …
they already have access to every trail in the world!

7. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a taxpayer!
The public has the right, through its elected representatives, to restrict how
land is used. A federal court has already ruled that there is no right to
mountain bike. It is a privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason
(such as safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails
(see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction and trail
maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by
killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size of the
intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover, mountain bikers favor trails that
are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that provide thrills for
mountain bikers. Such designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the
trail) and make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be necessary,
if bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the main reason why
trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by hikers require hardly any
maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park greatly increases its
cost of maintenance. Nothing is really "free", including trail construction
and maintenance. (How does the saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to quickly
summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust in a cell
phone, than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are already one
of the safest places you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I
have never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to
natural areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-
moving pieces of machinery, we would stay in the city!

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure
habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence
and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped
for brevity.

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Have I forgotten anything?
>
>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
>Vandeman, Ph.D.
Liar.
>March 5, 2004
>
>1. Why do people mountain bike?
>a. They are too lazy to walk.
Liar.
> Many of them say that using a bike allows them to get much
> farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
> walking. They also maintain constant pressure on land
> managers, to open more and more trails to bikes. Of
> course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
> they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
> closing trails to bikes "excludes" them from the parks.
Liar.

>b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they
> can see, rather than the quality of their
> experience. While riding a bike, especially over
> terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be
> constantly paying attention to not crashing. That
> make it almost impossible to notice much else.
Liar.
> By contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
> sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop
> instantly, if he/she finds something interesting.
Liar.

>d. They are interested in building mountain biking
> skills and competing with other mountain bikers. The
> thrill of racing drives people to spend more money
> on their bike, and ride it harder and more often.
> Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a
> lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is also
> extremely harmful to the parks and natural areas
> that are used for practice!
Liar.
>It is hard to think of any other (legal) use of public
>lands, other than hunting, that is as harmful as
>mountain biking.
>
>2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides
> the attraction for participants, manufacturers and
> retailers of mountain bikes and mountain biking
> accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make
> a lot of money from promoting mountain biking.
Liar.
>Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and
>sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to
>sell more cars.
>
>3. What harm does mountain biking do?
>a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion.
Liar.
>Knobby tires rip into the soil, loosening it and allowing
>rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped grooves
>that make walking difficult or even dangerous.
Liar.
>b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
> step on small animals and plants on the trail. For a
> mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid
> killing countless animals and plants on and under
> the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling
> the bike, and can't afford to look carefully at what
> is on the trail, especially when travelling fast.
Liar.
> And even if they happen to see, for example, a snake, it
> is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it.
Liar.
>c. A hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid
> getting wet, by crossing on stepping stones or logs.
Liar.
>d. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as
> far as a hiker. This translates into several times
> the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife
> (to say nothing of the other trail users).
Liar.
>e. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely
> pass each other on narrow trails. Therefore,
> policies that permit mountain biking also result in
> more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
> bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of
> their way).
Liar.
>f. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying
> mud, and consequently exotic plants and fungi, from
> place to place, resulting in the spread of exotic
> invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak
> Death.
Liar.
>g. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old
> off of the trails and hence out of the parks.
Liar.
>Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their
>safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails with bikes.
Liar.
>
>3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
> environmental impact than hiking. Is that true? If you
> read the "studies" that make that claim, you find that
> they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and
> mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for
> a moment, we assume that the studies are correct in
> their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would still
> follow that mountain biking has far greater impact per
> person, since mountain bikers typically travel so much
> farther than hikers. Besides overlooking distances
> travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
> wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under
> normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed.
Liar.
>
>5. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes,
> unless marked open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are
> quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground by
> mountain bikers.
Liar.
>
>6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
> on trails, but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love
> to tell this lie, apparently because they think it will
> gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain
> bikers have exactly the same access to trails that
> everyone else has!
Liar.
>It is only their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers
>were really being discriminated against, they could easily
>go to court to gain access. However … they already have
>access to every trail in the world!
>
> (see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).
Liar.
>
>8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
> construction and trail maintenance? Trail construction
> destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by killing
> plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size
> of the intervening "islands" of habitat).
Liar.
>Trails used only by hikers require hardly any maintenance.
Liar.
>Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park greatly increases
>its cost of maintenance.
Liar.

>9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being
> able to quickly summon help in the event of an
> emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, than a
> speeding mountain biker.
Liar.
>Besides, natural areas are already one of the safest places
>you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I
>have never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid.
>Most people go to natural areas partly for solitude. If we
>wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces of machinery,
>we would stay in the city!
>
>===
>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
>limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
>the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
>construction.)
Liar.
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
Liar.

Patzerseescheck

"What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote:

.Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped
for brevity. . . .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
Vandeman <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>Have I forgotten
anything? .> .>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain
Biking .>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .Liar.

Liar.

.>March 5, 2004 .> .>1. Why do people mountain bike? .>a.
They are too lazy to walk. .Liar. .> Many of them say that
using a bike allows .>them to get much farther, in the same
amount of time, than they can by walking. .>They also
maintain constant pressure on land managers, to open more
and more .>trails to bikes. Of course, all of these trails
are already open to them, if .>they choose to walk. They
also frequently claim that closing trails to bikes
.>"excludes" them from the parks. .Liar.

BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.

.>b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can
see, rather than .>the quality of their experience. While
riding a bike, especially over terrain as .>rough as a
trail, one has to be constantly paying attention to not
crashing. .>That make it almost impossible to notice much
else. .Liar. .> By contrast, a hiker feels .>the ground,
hears all the sounds and smells all the odors of nature and
can stop .>instantly, if he/she finds something interesting.
.Liar. . .>d. They are interested in building mountain
biking skills and competing .>with other mountain bikers.
The thrill of racing drives people to spend more .>money on
their bike, and ride it harder and more often. Racing, up to
and .>including the Olympics, drives a lot of mountain
biking. Of course, it is also .>extremely harmful to the
parks and natural areas that are used for practice! .Liar.
.>It .>is hard to think of any other (legal) use of public
lands, other than hunting, .>that is as harmful as mountain
biking. .> .>2. What is driving the sport of mountain
biking? Besides the attraction for .>participants,
manufacturers and retailers of mountain bikes and mountain
biking .>accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides,
make a lot of money from .>promoting mountain biking. .Liar.
.>Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote .>and
sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to
sell more cars. .> .>3. What harm does mountain biking do?
.>a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. .Liar.
.>Knobby tires rip into the .>soil, loosening it and
allowing rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped
.>grooves that make walking difficult or even dangerous.
.Liar. .>b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally
step on small animals .>and plants on the trail. For a
mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid .>killing
countless animals and plants on and under the trail. They
have to pay .>attention to controlling the bike, and can't
afford to look carefully at what is .>on the trail,
especially when travelling fast. .Liar. .> And even if they
happen to see, .>for example, a snake, it is hard for them
to stop in time to avoid killing it. .Liar. .>c. A hiker,
when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
.>crossing on stepping stones or logs. .Liar. .>d. Bikes
also allow people to travel several times as far as a hiker.
This .>translates into several times the impacts, both on
the trail and on the wildlife .>(to say nothing of the other
trail users). .Liar. .>e. Due to their width and speed,
bikes can't safely pass each other on .>narrow trails.
Therefore, policies that permit mountain biking also result
in .>more habitat destruction, as trails are widened by
bikers (or by hikers and .>equestrians jumping out of their
way). .Liar. .>f. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for
carrying mud, and consequently .>exotic plants and fungi,
from place to place, resulting in the spread of exotic
.>invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
.Liar. .>g. Mountain biking is driving the very young and
old off of the trails and .>hence out of the parks. .Liar.
.>Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their
.>safety, and don’t enjoy sharing the trails with bikes.
.Liar. .> .>3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no
greater environmental impact .>than hiking. Is that true? If
you read the "studies" that make that claim, you .>find that
they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain
biking, .>but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment,
we assume that the studies are .>correct in their having
equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow that
.>mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
mountain bikers .>typically travel so much farther than
hikers. Besides overlooking distances .>travelled, those
"studies" almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they
don't .>study mountain biking under normal conditions --
only at a very slow speed. .Liar. .> .>5. What should the
policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked open.
.>Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly
ripped out of the ground by .>mountain bikers. .Liar. .>
.>6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians
on trails, but not .>mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love
to tell this lie, apparently because they .>think it will
gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain bikers
have .>exactly the same access to trails that everyone else
has! .Liar. .>It is only their bikes .>that are banned. If
mountain bikers were really being discriminated against,
.>they could easily go to court to gain access. However …
they already have access .>to every trail in the world! .>
.> (see .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm). .Liar.
.> .>8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like
trail construction and trail .>maintenance? Trail
construction destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by
.>killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing
the size of the .>intervening "islands" of habitat). .Liar.
.>Trails used only by hikers require hardly any
.>maintenance. .Liar. .>Therefore, admitting bicycles to a
park greatly increases its cost .>of maintenance. .Liar. .
.>9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
being able to quickly .>summon help in the event of an
emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone, .>than a
speeding mountain biker. .Liar. .>Besides, natural areas are
already one of the .>safest places you can be. In over 50
years of hiking and backpacking, I have .>never witnessed
any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to
natural .>areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be
around large, fast-moving pieces .>of machinery, we would
stay in the city! .> .>=== .>I am working on creating
wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .>humans ("pure
habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.) .Liar. .>
.>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .Liar. . .
.Patzerseescheck . ."What is hateful to you, do not to your
freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go
forth and learn." .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

Your point? Practic ewhat you preach.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Have I forgotten anything?

Yes, you forgot to use your brain.

>
> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking Michael
> Vandeman, Ph.D. March 5, 2004
>
> 1. Why do people mountain bike?
> a. They are too lazy to walk.

Hikers are too lazy to ride.

>
> 3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater
> environmental
impact
> than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that
> make that claim,
you
> find that they don't really compare the impacts of hiking
> and mountain
biking,
> but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume
> that the
studies are
> correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it
> would still follow
that
> mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since
> mountain bikers typically travel so much farther than
> hikers. Besides overlooking
distances
> travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
> wildlife. And they
don't
> study mountain biking under normal conditions -- only at a
> very slow
speed.
>

If you really want to ban something that ruins the
environment and causes great danger to other trail users,
ban horses.

>
> 8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
> construction and
trail
> maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat
> both directly
(by
> killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing
> the size of the intervening "islands" of habitat).

The number of trails created by hikers, legally and
illegally, still far out numbers those created by mtn
bikers.

>
> 9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
> being able to
quickly
> summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather
> trust in a cell
phone,
> than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are
> already one of
the
> safest places you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and
> backpacking, I
have
> never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid.

If so, then why did 8 hikers die in the San Gabriel and San
Bernardino mountains this winter?

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:moKNt_xCB0QJ:members.b-
oardhost.com/sgva96.html+hikers+die+in+san+bernardino+mountains&hl=en&ie=UTF-
8

It sounds like you don't venture farther than your
neighborhood park.

Greg

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
crawled out from under his rock in his "pure habitat" and to spew out:

>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>.Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped
>for brevity. . . .On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
>Vandeman <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>Have I forgotten
>anything? .> .>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain
>Biking .>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .Liar.
>
>Liar.
>
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
>.> Many of them say that using a bike allows .>them to
>get much farther, in the same amount of time, than they
>can by walking. .>They also maintain constant pressure
>on land managers, to open more and more .>trails to
>bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already open
>to them, if .>they choose to walk. They also frequently
>claim that closing trails to bikes .>"excludes" them
>from the parks. .Liar.
>
>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.
WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed Mike, you
are expanding your horizons. Of course with those darn
filthy humans still running around the horizon's getting
harder to see, AIN'T IT!!

>. .Patzerseescheck . ."What is hateful to you, do not to
>your freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is
>commentary. Go forth and learn." .Hillel the Elder, First
>Cent. B.C.E.
>
>Your point? Practic ewhat you preach.

I do practice what I preach, Mike. I laugh with people all
the time when they poke fun at me. I have big ears, a really
big head, a huge belly, etc. I can laugh at me with the best
of them. It usually ticks them off because I don't get
angry. I don't find that hateful, I find it funny.

>===
>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
>limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
>the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
>construction.)
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Patzerseescheck

"What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

 

Oh oh.

the I know you are but what am I defense! very nice

Michael

<snip> useless drivel

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:10:31 GMT, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

. ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
.news:[email protected]... .> Have
I forgotten anything? . .Yes, you forgot to use your brain.
. .> .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking .>
Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .> March 5, 2004 .> .> 1. Why do
people mountain bike? .> a. They are too lazy to walk. .
.Hikers are too lazy to ride. . .> .> 3. Mountain bikers
claim that their sport has no greater environmental .impact
.> than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that
make that claim, .you .> find that they don't really compare
the impacts of hiking and mountain .biking, .> but only the
impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the
.studies are .> correct in their having equivalent impacts
per foot, it would still follow .that .> mountain biking has
far greater impact per person, since mountain bikers .>
typically travel so much farther than hikers. Besides
overlooking .distances .> travelled, those "studies" almost
all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they .don't .> study
mountain biking under normal conditions -- only at a very
slow .speed. .> . .If you really want to ban something that
ruins the environment and causes .great danger to other
trail users, ban horses.

They have more right to be there than machines do. DUH!

.> 8. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail
construction and .trail .> maintenance? Trail construction
destroys wildlife habitat both directly .(by .> killing
plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size of
the .> intervening "islands" of habitat). . .The number of
trails created by hikers, legally and illegally, still far
out .numbers those created by mtn bikers.

So you shouldn't create any new ones.

.> 9. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by
being able to .quickly .> summon help in the event of an
emergency? I would rather trust in a cell .phone, .> than a
speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are already
one of .the .> safest places you can be. In over 50 years of
hiking and backpacking, I .have .> never witnessed any
situation requiring emergency aid. . .If so, then why did 8
hikers die in the San Gabriel and San Bernardino .mountains
this winter?

Hit by mountain bikers? That is the first time I have heard
of that. Mountain bikers die all the time, and they have
only been in business a couple of decades.

.http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:moKNt_xCB0QJ:members.-
boardhost.com/sgva96.html+hikers+die+in+san+bernardino+mountains&hl=en&ie=UTF-
8 . .It sounds like you don't venture farther than your
neighborhood park.

No, I usually don't. And I'm proud of it.

.Greg .

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:38:38 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote:

.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman
<[email protected]> .crawled out from under his rock in
his "pure habitat" and to spew out: . .>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>.Only
becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped for
brevity. .>. .>. .>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
Vandeman <[email protected]> .>.wrote: .>. .>.>Have I
forgotten anything? .>.> .>.>Frequently Asked Questions
about Mountain Biking .>.>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>.Liar.
.> .>Liar. .> .BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! .>.> Many of
them say that using a bike allows .>.>them to get much
farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
walking. .>.>They also maintain constant pressure on land
managers, to open more and more .>.>trails to bikes. Of
course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
.>.>they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
closing trails to bikes .>.>"excludes" them from the parks.
.>.Liar. .> .>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.
.WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed Mike, you
are .expanding your horizons. Of course with those darn
filthy humans still .running around the horizon's getting
harder to see, AIN'T IT!! . . .>. .>.Patzerseescheck .>.
.>."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is
the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and
learn." .>.Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E. .> .>Your
point? Practic ewhat you preach. . .I do practice what I
preach, Mike. I laugh with people all the time .when they
poke fun at me. I have big ears, a really big head, a huge
.belly, etc. I can laugh at me with the best of them. It
usually ticks .them off because I don't get angry. I don't
find that hateful, I find .it funny.

Sure. "filthy humans" is an expression of love. Right.

.>=== .>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
off-limits to .>humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I
spent the previous 8 .>years fighting auto dependence and
road construction.) .> .>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . .
.Patzerseescheck . ."What is hateful to you, do not to your
freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go
forth and learn." .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 19:40:06 +0100, Titan Point <[email protected]>
wrote:

.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote: .
.> Have I forgotten anything? .> .> Frequently Asked
Questions about Mountain Biking .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .
...they have a PhD in stupidity? Crappock should enrol
immediately. . .> March 5, 2004 .> .[Gratuitous snip] . .>
3. What harm does mountain biking do? .> a. Most obvious is
the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip into the .>
soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. .
...and walking boots don't? Of course walking boots are made
with cotton .wool soles.

Different subject, and irrelevant.

.> They also create V-shaped .> grooves that make walking
difficult or even dangerous. . .Personally I think that
walkers should be made to look where they're .going. They
could stub a toe or anything. . .> The mechanical advantage
.> given by the gears and ball bearings allow a mountain
biker to travel several .> times as fast as a hiker. Given
their increased weight (rider plus bike), this .> results in
vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
.> (shearing) forces on the soil. . ....its not a PhD in
science then. Ever thought that hikers usually have
.rucksacks which are at least as heavy as bikes? Naah!

Not where bikes are allowed. Day packs at the most, MUCH
lighter than a bike. Who'd want to hike with a bike on their
back? Come on!

.> (Witness the skid marks from stops, starts, and .>
turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and
opposite reaction. .> Mountain bikes were built much
stronger than other bikes, so that they could .> withstand
the greater forces they were subject to on rough trails.
These same .> forces, therefore, are being applied to the
trails! . .I blame Newton. He never saw a woman naked, and
you can see why. . .> b. A hiker must be very careful not to
accidentally step on small animals .> and plants on the
trail. . .I often see hikers do this. They tiptoe along the
footpaths, delicately .avoiding stepping on anything that
might break.

Right.

.> For a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid .>
killing countless animals and plants on and under the trail.
They have .> to pay attention to controlling the bike, and
can't afford to look .> carefully at what is on the trail,
especially when travelling fast. And .> even if they happen
to see, for example, a snake, it is hard for them to .> stop
in time to avoid killing it. c. A hiker, when crossing a
creek, .> will try to avoid getting wet, by crossing on
stepping stones or logs. .> Mountain bikers, on the other
hand, simply ride right through the creek .> bed, crushing
any animals or plants that happen to be there. . .Those
creeks are well known to have lots of animals and plants
that can .survive being stood on, but not ridden over.
Biology was never my strong .subject.

There are few animals or plants on top of bare rocks.

.> Mountain .> biking magazines are full of photos of
mountain bikers throwing up .> spray, as they barrel through
creeks. . .This is simply shocking. Did they get wet as
well? . .> d. Bikes also allow people to .> travel several
times as far as a hiker. This translates into several .>
times the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife (to
say nothing .> of the other trail users). . .Nope.
Definitely not any PhD involving logic. . .> Existing
parklands are already inadequate to .> protect the wildlife
that live there. When they are crisscrossed by .> mountain
bikers and legal or illegal trails, their habitat becomes
even .> more inadequate. . .This must be worse than global
warming. I can see the headlines now: . ."Computer model
shows 1 million species to become extinct because of
.mountain biking. President to act" . .> Mountain bikers
frequently advertise rides of 20-50 .> miles or more. Have
you ever tried to walk that far in a day? e. Due to .> their
width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each other on
narrow .> trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain
biking also result in .> more habitat destruction, as trails
are widened by bikers (or by hikers .> and equestrians
jumping out of their way). . .Shocking, although I will say
that all the hikers I know barge each other .out of the way
out of respect for the environment. . .> f. Knobby mountain
bike tires .> are ideal for carrying mud, and consequently
exotic plants and fungi, .> from place to place, resulting
in the spread of exotic invasive species, .> such as weeds
and Sudden Oak Death. . .Imagine! Stop the Press! Sudden Oak
Death Spread by Mountain Bike tires! . .Shall we tell the
President? Mountain bikes are clearly a WMD. Did Saddam
.have a secret stockpile? . .> g. Mountain biking is driving
the .> very young and old off of the trails and hence out of
the parks. Even .> able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear
for their safety, and don’t .> enjoy sharing the trails with
bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that .> they are simply
being selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually .> they
have no problem sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is
only .> their bikes that are a problem!) . .Remember those
equestrians also have horses that tiptoe through the
.environment. Can you remember ever seeing a horse's hoof on
a trail? I .can't. The horses also don't weigh anything at
all. Its a miracle of .evolution, the horse.

Different subject, and irrelevant.

.> h. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go
anywhere, teach .> children and anyone else who sees them
that the rough treatment of .> nature is acceptable. This
undoubtedly has a negative effect on people's .> treatment
of nature. . .Undoubtedly. People who take to mountain bikes
frequently vote Republican .afterwards. Its a nasty
consequence, caused by adrenaline. . .> i. In order to
mitigate bike-caused erosion, park .> managers have been
resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases .>
putting a plastic matrix or other exotic material under the
trail (e.g. .> in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve, near
Pleasanton, California)! .> It's hard to imagine that this
will have a beneficial effect on the park .> and its
wildlife…. .> .Talk about extreme measures! Wow! What about
a box of tacks? That'll slow .the bastards down. Certainly
no thought went into just banning the bikes. .Why? Because
they're not a problem that requires such drastic action.

Many people think that they ARE.

.> 3. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no .>
greater environmental .> impact than hiking. Is that true?
If you read the "studies" that make .> that claim, you find
that they don't really compare the impacts of .> hiking and
mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for a .>
moment, we assume that the studies are correct in their
having .> equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow
that mountain biking .> has far greater impact per person,
since mountain bikers typically .> travel so much farther
than hikers. Besides overlooking distances .> travelled,
those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And
.> they don't study mountain biking under normal conditions
-- only at a .> very slow speed. . .I've seen mountain
bikers damn near break the sound barrier on mountains.
.Especially uphill. .> .> 4. Where should mountain biking
allowed? A couple of role models for .> wildlife protection
are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal .> Utility
District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California).
.> They both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they
can't do much .> harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to
enjoy their sport for over a .> hundred years, without
riding off-road. . .Then came Kevlar. You know Kevlar is one
of those inventions created by a .woman? True. .> .> 5. What
should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless
marked .> open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and
repeatedly ripped out of .> the ground by mountain bikers.
.> .> 6. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and
equestrians on trails, .> but not mountain bikers? Mountain
bikers love to tell this lie, .> apparently because they
think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth .> is that
mountain bikers have exactly the same access to trails that
.> everyone else has! It is only their bikes that are
banned. If mountain .> bikers were really being
discriminated against, they could easily go to .> court to
gain access. However … they already have access to every
trail .> in the world! . .If Mountain bikers made their
bikes as heavy as ridden horses, complete .with horse shoe
shaped tire tracks, and then shit every few yards, would
.this be acceptable?

Horses are at least alive. Bikes aren't.

.> 7. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public
lands? I am a .> taxpayer! The public has the right,
through its elected representatives, .> to restrict how
land is used. A federal court has already ruled that .>
there is no right to mountain bike. It is a privilege, and
any land .> manager who gives a good reason (such as safety
or protecting the .> environment) can keep bikes off of
trails (see .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).
. .There is no federal right to sing the blues, yet people
still persist.

And you are a good example of that.

.[another snip] . .I'm bored. Somebody else waste some
electrons on this.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman wrote:
> Have I forgotten anything?

Apparently you've forgotten what a FAQ is.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail
address, at least)

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:40:43 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:38:38 GMT, Patzerseescheck
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman
><[email protected]> .crawled out from under his rock in
>his "pure habitat" and to spew out: . .>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
>14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>.Only
>becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel snipped for
>brevity. .>. .>. .>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike
>Vandeman <[email protected]> .>.wrote: .>. .>.>Have I
>forgotten anything? .>.> .>.>Frequently Asked Questions
>about Mountain Biking .>.>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>.Liar.
>.> .>Liar. .> .BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! .>.> Many of
>them say that using a bike allows .>.>them to get much
>farther, in the same amount of time, than they can by
>walking. .>.>They also maintain constant pressure on land
>managers, to open more and more .>.>trails to bikes. Of
>course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
>.>.>they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that
>closing trails to bikes .>.>"excludes" them from the parks.
>.>.Liar. .> .>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA say.
>.WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed Mike, you
>are .expanding your horizons. Of course with those darn
>filthy humans still .running around the horizon's getting
>harder to see, AIN'T IT!! . . .>. .>.Patzerseescheck .>.
>.>."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is
>the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and
>learn." .>.Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E. .> .>Your
>point? Practic ewhat you preach. . .I do practice what I
>preach, Mike. I laugh with people all the time .when they
>poke fun at me. I have big ears, a really big head, a huge
>.belly, etc. I can laugh at me with the best of them. It
>usually ticks .them off because I don't get angry. I don't
>find that hateful, I find .it funny.
>
>Sure. "filthy humans" is an expression of love. Right.
It was a joke Mike. Like you. In case you missed the movie
Planet of the Apes (2001) it was a play on this quote:

"Attar: Take your stinking hands off me, you damn
dirty human!"

I figured you would have gotten that since I bet it's one of
your favorite movies. You know, the type of movie where
humans are the bad guys and animals rule the world. Thats
how it is in your utopian world, right Mike? Do you have
dreams at night of being an honarary VIP in your "pure
habitat" world, voted that honor by the animals you have be-
friended. You walk down the aisles during official
ceremonies shaking their furry little paws. You stand up and
give rousing speeches about how bad humans, especially ones
on mountain bikes, are. All the little furry creatures howl
and clap and make grunting noises. Is that what it's like in
your world Mikey.........

>
>.>=== .>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
>off-limits to .>humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help?
If I help will you GO AWAY??!!??!!

>(I spent the previous 8 .>years fighting auto dependence
>and road construction.) .>
>.>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . . .Patzerseescheck .
>."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is
>the entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and
>learn." .Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.
>
>===
>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
>limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
>the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
>construction.)
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Patzerseescheck

"What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

 

On 7 Mar 2004 02:46:32 GMT, BB <[email protected]> wrote:

.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman wrote: .>
Have I forgotten anything? . .Apparently you've forgotten
what a FAQ is.

So you are of course going to enlighten us? This should
be good....
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 02:38:37 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote:

.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:40:43 GMT, Mike Vandeman
<[email protected]> .wrote: . .>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
18:38:38 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>.On
Sat, 06 Mar 2004 17:54:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman
<[email protected]> .>.crawled out from under his rock in
his "pure habitat" and to spew out: .>. .>.>On Sat, 06 Mar
2004 14:05:24 GMT, Patzerseescheck <[email protected]> wrote: .>.>
.>.>.Only becasue this is so easy. Some of the drivel
snipped for brevity. .>.>. .>.>. .>.>.On Sat, 06 Mar 2004
06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
.>.>.wrote: .>.>. .>.>.>Have I forgotten anything? .>.>.>
.>.>.>Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
.>.>.>Michael Vandeman, Ph.D. .>.>.Liar. .>.> .>.>Liar. .>.>
.>.BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! .>.>.> Many of them say
that using a bike allows .>.>.>them to get much farther, in
the same amount of time, than they can by walking.
.>.>.>They also maintain constant pressure on land managers,
to open more and more .>.>.>trails to bikes. Of course, all
of these trails are already open to them, if .>.>.>they
choose to walk. They also frequently claim that closing
trails to bikes .>.>.>"excludes" them from the parks.
.>.>.Liar. .>.> .>.>BS. That's EXACTLY what they and IMBA
say. .>.WOW, something other than "Liar". I'm impressed
Mike, you are .>.expanding your horizons. Of course with
those darn filthy humans still .>.running around the
horizon's getting harder to see, AIN'T IT!! .>. .>. .>.>.
.>.>.Patzerseescheck .>.>. .>.>."What is hateful to you, do
not to your freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is
commentary. Go forth and learn." .>.>.Hillel the Elder,
First Cent. B.C.E. .>.> .>.>Your point? Practic ewhat you
preach. .>. .>.I do practice what I preach, Mike. I laugh
with people all the time .>.when they poke fun at me. I have
big ears, a really big head, a huge .>.belly, etc. I can
laugh at me with the best of them. It usually ticks .>.them
off because I don't get angry. I don't find that hateful, I
find .>.it funny. .> .>Sure. "filthy humans" is an
expression of love. Right. .It was a joke Mike. Like you.
.In case you missed the movie Planet of the Apes (2001) it
was a play .on this quote: . ."Attar: Take your stinking
hands off me, you damn dirty human!" . .I figured you would
have gotten that since I bet it's one of your .favorite
movies. You know, the type of movie where humans are the bad
.guys and animals rule the world. Thats how it is in your
utopian .world, right Mike? Do you have dreams at night of
being an honarary .VIP in your "pure habitat" world, voted
that honor by the animals you .have be-friended. You walk
down the aisles during official ceremonies .shaking their
furry little paws. You stand up and give rousing .speeches
about how bad humans, especially ones on mountain bikes,
are. .All the little furry creatures howl and clap and make
grunting noises. .Is that what it's like in your world
Mikey......... . .> .>.>=== .>.>I am working on creating
wildlife habitat that is off-limits to .>.>humans ("pure
habitat"). Want to help? .If I help will you GO AWAY??!!??!!
. .>(I spent the previous 8 .>.>years fighting auto
dependence and road construction.) .>.>
.>.>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande .>. .>.
.>.Patzerseescheck .>. .>."What is hateful to you, do not to
your freind. This is the entire Torah. The rest is
commentary. Go forth and learn." .>.Hillel the Elder, First
Cent. B.C.E. .> .>=== .>I am working on creating wildlife
habitat that is off-limits to .>humans ("pure habitat").
Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .>years fighting auto
dependence and road construction.) .>
.>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande . . .Patzerseescheck .
."What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
.Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

Did you say something? I thought not.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

"BB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:58:24 GMT, Mike Vandeman wrote:
> > Have I forgotten anything?
>
> Apparently you've forgotten what a FAQ is.

My MV MTB FAQ FAQ goes something like this (I've multiple
choiced it to make it more interesting)

1) Who is asking these questions?

A: Those who want to know the TRUTH about mountain biking.
B: Nobody. It's just a different way of structuring the
same old shit.
C: People who immediately wished they'd talked to that cute
blonde on the tofu stand instead.

2) Why are they asking Mike?

A: Because only I tell the TRUTH about mountain biking.
B: They aren't because they don't exist
C: Because there was a queue for the tofu stand and it
seemed like a good idea at the time..

3) What do they make of the answers?

A: They see the TRUTH and go and fight MTBing
B: Non existent people cannot use usenet to register
their support
C: They conclude that all land access advocates are insane,
get in their SUVs and go home.

If you answered

Mostly A's: Stop talking to yourself, you buffoon. Mostly
B's: You believe that Mike has no support. Shame on you!
Mostly C's: You're not going back to those beardie weirdie
meetings again, they're all mad. But you say bikers can go
several times as far as hikers? Interesting........

Andy Chequer, and ya can't refute it

 

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:39:04 +0000, Mike Vandeman wrote:

> .It sounds like you don't venture farther than your
> neighborhood park.
>
> No, I usually don't. And I'm proud of it.

And you set yourself up as an expert? Good grief! proud of
never actually going out into the wilderness you so admire,
and speak of as an expert? How the bloody hell do you know
all those things you spout are true? (let me guess, "it's
OBVIOUS".)

I've been in places that were heavily used for centuries,
where the trails are worn so deep by human feet that the
forest is overhead.... And places where you have to work
very hard to find some traces of at all.... And places where
you can still see the ruts worn in stone from Roman
chariots...

There is a time and place for everything, and your onomaniac
stance towards mountain biking is ridiculous.

--Kamus

--
o__ | If you're old, eat right and ride a decent bike.
,>/'_ | Q. (_)\(_) | Usenet posting`

 

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:56:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Did you say something? I thought not.
>===
>I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-
>limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent
>the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
>construction.)
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Awwwww, Mikey, an attempt at witty banter. I'm so proud of
you. Careful with those thoughts though. They might open
your mind. And if your mind opened just a little, you'd stop
posting your inane drivel on Usenet. A sad day for us all.

***********************************************************-
**************
I am working on creating human habitat that is off-limits to
animals ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 50 years encouraging auto dependence and raising
money for more road construction.) My dream is that one day
the entire planet will be nothing but concrete, asphalt, and
mountain bike trails. Come join me.

Patzerseescheck

"What is hateful to you, do not to your freind. This is the
entire Torah. The rest is commentary. Go forth and learn."
Hillel the Elder, First Cent. B.C.E.

 

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 05:56:17 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Did you say something? I thought not.
>===

"I thought not."

So you admit that you do not think. And you admit that
you do not comprehend the postings of those who
disagree with you.

This would explain a lot.

(I am using your methodology of taking random comments out
of context to prove my point. Since I am using your
method, it must be the TRUTH. Either that, or your
methodology is flawed.)

Please be creative when calling me names this time.

Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to:
garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

 

Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Have I forgotten anything?

Yeah, you forgot about the hikers who defecate trailside.
The hikers who pack in food and leave their garbage. The
hikers who hack away at trees in an attempt to obtain
firewood. The hikers who walk off trail.

 

R.White wrote:

> Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Have I forgotten anything?
>
>
> Yeah, you forgot about the hikers who defecate trailside.
> The hikers who pack in food and leave their garbage. The
> hikers who hack away at trees in an attempt to obtain
> firewood. The hikers who walk off trail.

Well, I have IBS, and sometimes just have to go. But I
carry a substantial blue trowel and go well off the road
and burn my TP under very controlled circumstances. If you
want, you can help.

jimbat

 

On 7 Mar 2004 14:45:33 -0800, [email protected] (R.White) wrote:

.Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... .>
Have I forgotten anything? . .Yeah, you forgot about the
hikers who defecate trailside. .The hikers who pack in
food and leave their garbage. .The hikers who hack away at
trees in an attempt to obtain firewood. .The hikers who
walk off trail.

All of which is IRRELEVANT to the damage that mountain
biking does. DUH! I swear you mountain bikers are getting
stupider by the day.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the
previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road
construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande