Fresh Iraq POW Abuse Allegations

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by Carrera, Sep 30, 2005.

  1. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Seems like Bush's failure to enforce Geneva convention rules on his armed forces has gotten the U.S. into even more trouble. Now there are fresh photos of POW abuses in Iraq, being published on the internet.
    I don't think Bush condones POW abuses personally (some would disagree) but clearly he is at fault for allowing Rumsfeld to bypass Geneva Convention norms of conduct.
    Had concrete norms been laid down in the first place, not so bright sparks such as Lyndie England wouldn't have winded up in court.
    It is reported that.....:

    "The report quotes three US soldiers who described routine, severe beatings of prisoners, including a detainee's leg being broken with a baseball bat. They said abuse, at a military base called Mercury near Falluja, was not only overlooked, but was sometimes ordered.
    The punishments handed out included sleep deprivation, withholding food and water, "human pyramids" like those seen in photos from Abu Ghraib prison, and blows to the face, the report claimed.
    'Agenda'
    One of the soldiers told HRW the abuse was ordered by intelligence officers in an attempt to gain information.
    Another said it was seen as "sport".
    "Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the [interrogation] tent," he reportedly said.
    "As long as no PUCs [prisoners under control] came up dead, it happened," he said.
    "We kept it to broken arms and legs."
    HRW said the reports "suggest that the mistreatment of prisoners by the US military is even more widespread than has been acknowledged to date".
    Lt Col Skinner of the US Department of Defense said the dossier was trying to "advance an agenda through the use of distortions and errors in fact".
    He said 400 investigations had been launched into prisoner abuse allegations and "looked at all aspects of detention operations under a microscope".
     
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  2. Hypnospin

    Hypnospin New Member

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    another lack of accountability by the one to whom the buck should stop at.
    regardless of what anyone thinks, after all the nuisance of embarrasingly bad public relations these events caused
    (such is how this must be looked upon by the bush syndicate), you would think heads would roll, but no, just one typical rank and file soldier takes the fall. this is scapegoating at it's worst and coverup (always much worse than the original act) at it's most feeble.

    funny thing is, many in the us think this is excusable given their
    "holy war is hell" twisted outlook. yes, i believe there is a church-state connection when otherwise good people can condone crimes against humanity being perpetrated in the name of the us...and the criminal bush syndicate wraps itself up in the flag and prayer at the same time to further it's agenda.

    or they will divert blame and rationalize along the lines of "there are some really bad guys there", thus somehow approving inhumane treatment.

    and all the while this fuels the fire and puts the us and it's citizens in greater danger, and creates a condition of tolerance if not approval of anti us sentiment globaly.

    as for my view on this derogatory comment quoted here re a us soldier, there are many much worse acts being undertaken everyday with the full approval of the us chain of command. to single out and demean a soldier only serves as a way to send up a smokescreen to cloud the greater reality of the criminal nature of bush and his wars.

    i mention this not to condone, but to offer a perspective. after all, think of the folks at home watching these pics on their pcs and thinking,
    "this is objectionable",
    if they put the military actions and their consquences in terms of human cost at in the name of the us in context, they would realize to a greater extent the human revulsion to war, and respond with "this is intolerable".

    it is my hope this is indeed happening, and the approval and opinion polls do in fact reflect this result, even with weak reporting of the the state censored commercially approved us media.

    "wake up" - large banner on a major overpass

    "a measure of a society is in how it treats it's prisoners"

    +
     
  3. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Here is what Bush stated:

    "The U.S. is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the U.S. and the community of law abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating and prosecuting all acts of torture."
    George W. Bush, U.N. Torture Victims Recognition Day, June 26, 2003

    Here is what Bush has actually presided over and the record is a worrying one. He has also been backed by Blair to the hilt as many are aware:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    "In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses."

    "Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

    Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

    Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

    Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

    Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

    Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

    Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

    Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

    Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

    A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

    Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

    Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

    These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements."
     
  4. Hypnospin

    Hypnospin New Member

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    it is my hope there will be mental health evaluations and help available for the soldiers involved in these acts, as they are victims of abuse by this situation as surely as the "detainees" they abused. i do have concern for their mental health and the consequences of releasing them upon society as they return from this war of bush.

    it is too bad i fear this will not be the case, and they will join the other returning soldiers and contribute to violence, drug and alcohol abuse, jails, and suicide, as the high rates of these symptoms increase.

    this is truly something that bush must be held accountable for, and also something those who would still find a way to support these criminal wars must indeed honestly search their souls over...

     
  5. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    The now notorious Lynndie England is suggesting that the extent of torture in Abu Guraib prison has not been revealed.
    In a piece in the Sunday Times (part of International News Corp - owners of ST and Fox News, Rupert Murdoch), England states that the systematic torture of prisoners at Abu Guraib was implemented to "quantanemo-ise" the so-called war on terror in Iraq.

    England starts a three year jail sentance for her role but she appears to be pointing the finger at the command structure too.
    Maybe England is trying to portray herself as a reluctant participant in what went there.

    Added to the fact that human rights groups have won an injunction lifting the ban on publication of more photos of torture at Abu Guraib, the military in the USA are being portrayed as people with something to hide.
     
  6. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    It seems to me that the real buck stops with the military chain of command above Lyndie England. From what I gather, what actually happened was England was urged to pose for those photos and it was suggested she'd be helping her country if she did this. The idea was it was all supposed to help loosen up the POW's so they would hand over information related to terrorism e.t.c.
    Now Lyndie England isn't exactly the kind of girl you'd normally engage in a conversation related to neuro-cerebral impulses. Apparently she thought it was all very weird but went along with it all. A lot of it may have boiled down to peer pressure as well.
    Certainly she should be ashamed of what she did but I don't really know how far events went. Did Miss England participate in violence and abuse of the POWs or did she simply pose for the photos?
    At any rate, her superior officers bear far more responsibility. Abuse of POWs cannot be tolerated or condoned in any way. It shows weakness of discipline in the military, gives a bad example to the outside world, brings shame on the country represented (by those armed forces) and encourages further terrorism and violence.
    Of course, the abuses aren't only limited to American soldiers. U.K. soldiers have also carried out abuses.
    I think the whole thing blackens the image of Americans and Britons worldwide and the politicians are chiefly to blame.


     
  7. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Bush's mistake has been to try and use war as a politcal tool for furthering an agenda. Bush ignored the fact that war always destroys lives and ought to be resorted to as a means of defence on all occasions. No good ever comes from war. Invasions of sovereign countries always bring disaster on those who invade.
    His second mistake was also fundamentally flawed. Not securing POWs with human rights while captured in combat was an invitation to open abuse.
    Basically it's nauseating to see Bob Gelfof sucking up to Blair and Bush in light of what has taken place. He might as well sit down to tea with Slobodan Miloshevich or shake hands with General Pinochet.

     
  8. roadhog

    roadhog New Member

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    Very sound analysis I believe Carrera. The lack of discipline exhibited in all these cases is absolutely astounding and completely embarrassing. We should be ashamed of ourselves. As a member of the officer corps in the US Regular Army (and having spent my share of time in Iraq), it outrages me beyond explanation to see the breakdown that occurred in all aspects of these situations. In all cases, the chain of command at all levels MUST be guilty of extreme neglect, laziness, disrespect, failure to fulfill their duties morally and responsibly, or a combination of all - or else the incidents would not have happened. Period. There is no excuse. Heads should be rolling (long ago) - and I'm not talking about England's. This issue is THAT important. We are losing any credibility we have left internationally, and much of it over this issue. Thoughts of this topic while on my bike easily raise my average speed for a given ride.

     
  9. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I want to commend you for this post - it's obvious that what some of your fellow soldiers are up to, appalls you.
     
  10. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    The way I see it, Bush and Blair are in trouble - big trouble.
    If we suppose the American electorate is divided into three groups, we have:
    (1) Those who opposed the war in Iraq, period.
    (2) Those who supported the war in Iraq so long as it was conducted according to norms of international law with a sincere belief in the need to rid the country of human rights abuses.
    (3) Those who supported the war no matter how it was conducted.
    I suppose there are many Americans who fit into the second group but no longer support Bush as he has made such a hash of the whole situation.
    But in my view, armed forces are meant to conduct themselves in such a way as the native population feels secure by their presence. POW's should really be treated as humanely as possible.
    What happened in Iraq is the recruits simply lack the experience and discipline to know what they're supposed to be doing. These are rookies who have been pushed into a difficult situation and don't know how the ground lies. I guess they are themselves victims. Some of course should never have been recruited as they endangered the lives of the more professional recruits who have tried to stick to higher standards.



     
  11. Mister Nick

    Mister Nick New Member

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    I'm not saying I condone the prisoner abuse, but it could be worse.

    We could be cutting the heads off of these guys and video-taping it for the entire world to see.

    Comparatively, we're doing pretty damned well.
     
  12. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Unfortunately it doesn't get any worse than it is now. The thing is, to moslems, the idea of women even giving orders to moslem men is horrific and repulsive. But the sight of moslem males attached to Lyndie England's leash has immense cultural implications. I mean it is absolutely shocking to the Arab mentality.
    The British have also been stupid enough to abuse POW's contrary to international law but even they weren't reckless enough to take snap shots of female rookies acting out scenarios with Iraqi men for the portfolio.
    To be honest, as a western liberal guy I'd likewise be mortified to find myself under the jurisdiction of Lyndie England. I mean, she isn't exactly Miss World category is she?

     
  13. Don Shipp

    Don Shipp New Member

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    Go To Bed.
     
  14. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    I've earned a night of unwinding I think. Just got back from a 4 hour ride in which I climbed and climbed and climbed. It was an absolutely horrendous session with my pulse way up high. An hour later taking tea at my aunt's it was still in the mid eighties.
    How I'll sleep I don't know. Looks like I'll be up watching TV but can have a lie-in tomorrow. Plus an easy ride.

     
  15. Carrera

    Carrera New Member

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    Linda Burnham writes:

    "While the purported "goal" of the sexual humiliation of Abu Ghraib prisoners was to extract vital information, the photos tell a more twisted story. The cheery faces tell us that dramatizing the metaphoric rape of the Iraqi nation by acting out the sexual domination of Iraqi men was big fun.

    Casting themselves as directors and actors in the drama of sexual humiliation, the prison guards clearly believed that they could do whatever they wished, and thoroughly enjoy themselves in the process. Was it un-American for them to think so? Not when the core message of their commander-in-chief to the Iraqi people has been, "You will bow down to our capacity to dominate, and we will exercise that capacity despite global opposition."

    The struggle over assigning culpability has taken on the character of a high-stakes political tango. That struggle will intensify. Although there's no question but that everyone responsible, from the immediate perpetrators on up, must be held to account, culpability runs far deeper.

    It may be hard to get up in the morning and face this fact, but we are, collectively, guilty as hell. We elect representatives who feed the military monster. We honor sadistic hyper-masculinity, awarding those who portray it best with governorships (e.g. Arnold Schwarzenneger). We devote vast resources to bondage and discipline in our criminal justice system. And we lie to ourselves unceasingly.

    The world is weary of, and profoundly angered by, America's tattered claim of innocence. The soldiers at Abu Ghraib pulled back the curtain on their perverse enactments so that we may see who we are. Do we have the courage to look? Do we have the will to change?

    Much has been made of the role of Private Lynndie England, the thumbs-up woman of prisoner abuse. Her culpability seems manifest and, back on home turf, England will have to fight for her soul the best way she knows how.

    But England is the second cover girl for the Iraq installment of the US military's sexual integration story. Jessica Lynch was the first. Two fresh-faced, working-class, small-town young women eager to escape the limitations of location and station. Escape they did, into the welcoming arms of an institution that used one to rally the nation, spinning a narrative of the endangered but plucky female, rescued from the dark barbarian hordes. It will use the other as sacrifice to assuage the anxieties of a troubled nation.

    In her role as dominatrix over Iraqi men England exposed the sexualization of national conquest. As a participant in the militarized construction of the masculine she inaugurated a brand new, frightening archetype: dominant-nation female as joyful agent of sexual, national, racial and religious humiliation.

    How's that for liberation?"
     
  16. darkboong

    darkboong New Member

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    "We" just shoot them in cold blood in front of a news crew, or
    beat them to death over 24-48 hours, taking pictures and videos
    all the way.

    The biggest difference is that the media makes more of a fuss
    about the beheadings. There are substantially fewer repeorted
    incidences of beheadings than prisoner deaths in Coalition
    custody. Pro-death people make more fuss about the beheadings
    because they are desperate to draw attention away from the
    terminal cruelty and violence routinely inflicted on prisoners held
    by the Coalition.

    Oh, and before you say "We" only lock up the guilty, "we" don't.
    "We" pick up people off the street at random and incarcerate
    them for a few weeks-months without any access to lawyers
    or trial. ie: "We" kidnap people and "we" torture a large number
    of them to death.

    Unacceptable behaviour, whoever does it.
     
  17. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I don't think that proximity to victims of murder, mitigates the culpability of those doing the murdering.

    While the beheading of people is despicable, the launching of rockets or the firing of bullets some distance away from the victim, is equally despicable.

    I am not attempting to justify either party - murder is wrong.
    be that murder executed by knife/sword or be that murder by more advanced
    technology.
     
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