From Lance to Landis: Inside the American Doping Controversy at the Tour de France (H



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adamastor

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Wow,

this thread really went off topic since last time I read it. Going back to the book, those looking for evidence (and it's researched evidence, otherwise wouldn't be published !), read it, trust me.

I admit there are a lot of Armstrong haters around, but ONLY in a small number. The majority of the public don't give a ****.

But those only seeing the "white"side of LA, will have seen dozens of books in the U.S. showing the "clean" Armstrong. So this time, please allow someone to show the "dark" sides, and the evidences that make of him such a "hated" (not my case) person by some PRO cycling fans.
 

jhuskey

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adamastor said:
Wow,

this thread really went off topic since last time I read it. Going back to the book, those looking for evidence (and it's researched evidence, otherwise wouldn't be published !), read it, trust me.

I admit there are a lot of Armstrong haters around, but ONLY in a small number. The majority of the public don't give a ****.

But those only seeing the "white"side of LA, will have seen dozens of books in the U.S. showing the "clean" Armstrong. So this time, please allow someone to show the "dark" sides, and the evidences that make of him such a "hated" (not my case) person by some PRO cycling fans.


But I was enjoying "The days of our cycling lives" the drama and romance.
Seriously I cringe everytime I see another spike driven into the heart of cycling whether it be Jan,Tyler etc.
Lance will never be considered a mild mannered type that rescues cats out of trees or escorts old ladies across the street, however he has been an inspiration to many and Mr. Rogers never won the tour.
Not everyone examines the fine points of athletic achievement but most take pleasure from the victories of iconic heros.
It is always a tragedy to see an athlete dragged down for whatever reason because it cheapens the achievements that probably brought some degree of pleasure and hope into an otherwise boring existence of the everyday "regular average guy".
I don't know Lance but I would hate to see what he has reflected in his "triumph over tragedy" story destroyed.
Most people in the US could not accurately tell you what he accomplished but they know that he did remarkable things after having cancer and that projects hope and people need hope more than ever.
That being said I am going back to sarcastic mode.
 

Wayne666

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jhuskey said:
I don't know Lance but I would hate to see what he has reflected in his "triumph over tragedy" story destroyed.
I find it dissappointing that people think that finding out he doped (which I think is about 99% likely) would change how they feel about the triumph over tragedy story.

It's akin to thinking Clinton was a bad president b/c he lied about the BJ.
 

whiteboytrash

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wolfix said:
Wrong .....She was there at the end of his chemo, right when he was finished. She jumped his bones when the woman who was with him during chemo was still with him. She got what she deserved with LA. They were married within 5 months after meeting.
And now she writing books airing her laundry in front of Oprah, Diane Sawyer, and others. A religious book ......
She admitted what she saw in the relationship that led to marriage was the ring, not the relationship.
...and his sperm frozen in a fridge.
 

jhuskey

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Wayne666 said:
I find it dissappointing that people think that finding out he doped (which I think is about 99% likely) would change how they feel about the triumph over tragedy story.

It's akin to thinking Clinton was a bad president b/c he lied about the BJ.


It all depends on how the media would portray the event and how pesistent they would be about it. It would almost certainly kill any future movie possibilities.

BTW: Is 666 your BD or are you trying to tell us something.
 

helmutRoole2

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wolfix said:
Wrong .....She was there at the end of his chemo, right when he was finished. She jumped his bones when the woman who was with him during chemo was still with him. She got what she deserved with LA. They were married within 5 months after meeting.
And now she writing books airing her laundry in front of Oprah, Diane Sawyer, and others. A religious book ......
She admitted what she saw in the relationship that led to marriage was the ring, not the relationship.
I thought Lance had played some role in all this, but I guess not.

So this Kristin woman, did she beat Lance down? Was she physically abusive or did she just play psychological games with him?

Ah, I've had a revelation. Tell me if I'm wrong, but did she used to dress up like House and force him to get an erection? Was she all, "You will get a hardon, Lance. Do you understand?" And Lance was all, "I'm trying but I just can't. I can only perform for the real House."

It's amazing they were able to have kids. Was it House who ultimately drove a wedge between the two?

What a psychological blow, getting dump for House. You really can't blame her then for trying to cash-in. I mean, she deserves something, don't you think?
 

whiteboytrash

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You're so right HR2; Armstrong the master tactician who could beat any rider with his mind was overcome by a simple girl from middle America... Big Tex thought he knew what he was getting into but good ole Kik played a mean hand of poker and tricked Lancey into marriage.... she even gave him the look before she went down on him in the hospital bed... stories filtered around of her reconning the course by looking at the ultra-sound and x-ray shots of Lance's **** in the hospital so she could give him maximum pleasure when going down on him..... sure he couldn’t have children, had no career and only one ball but Lance was every girls wet dream...... yeah right Wolf I know a lot of women who scour the cancer wards of America looking for husbands !


helmutRoole2 said:
I thought Lance had played some role in all this, but I guess not.

So this Kristin woman, did she beat Lance down? Was she physically abusive or did she just play psychological games with him?

Ah, I've had a revelation. Tell me if I'm wrong, but did she used to dress up like House and force him to get an erection? Was she all, "You will get a hardon, Lance. Do you understand?" And Lance was all, "I'm trying but I just can't. I can only perform for the real House."

It's amazing they were able to have kids. Was it House who ultimately drove a wedge between the two?

What a psychological blow, getting dump for House. You really can't blame her then for trying to cash-in. I mean, she deserves something, don't you think?
 

Rolfrae

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whiteboytrash said:
You're so right HR2; Armstrong the master tactician who could beat any rider with his mind was overcome by a simple girl from middle America... Big Tex thought he knew what he was getting into but good ole Kik played a mean hand of poker and tricked Lancey into marriage.... she even gave him the look before she went down on him in the hospital bed... stories filtered around of her reconning the course by looking at the ultra-sound and x-ray shots of Lance's **** in the hospital so she could give him maximum pleasure when going down on him..... sure he couldn’t have children, had no career and only one ball but Lance was every girls wet dream...... yeah right Wolf I know a lot of women who scour the cancer wards of America looking for husbands !
What in the name of **** is this thread about?
 

jhuskey

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Rolfrae said:
What in the name of **** is this thread about?


Same as the rest,unsolicited,biased random opinions and thoughts. Ideas are forbidden.
 

fbircher

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Rolfrae said:
What in the name of **** is this thread about?
It's supposed to be about American doping at the TdF - that race where only a tiny handful of Americans have ever competed, and where 99% of the hundreds of mostly European cyclists who have competed over the last 15 years were doped to the gills.
 

fbircher

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Rolfrae said:
What in the name of **** is this thread about?
It's supposed to be about American doping at the TdF - that race where only a tiny handful of Americans have ever competed, and where 99% of the hundreds of (mostly European) cyclists who have competed over the last 15 years were doped to the gills.
 

Rolfrae

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fbircher said:
It's supposed to be about American doping at the TdF - that race where only a tiny handful of Americans have ever competed, and where 99% of the hundreds of (mostly European) cyclists who have competed over the last 15 years were doped to the gills.
Is that a coded reply? Who's side are you on? :D
 

whiteboytrash

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Rolfrae said:
Is that a coded reply? Who's side are you on? :D
white man 27, infertile, one ball, no career, shaved legs, no money, lives with mother, speaks pigeon French seeks beautiful, attractive, thoughtful home wrecker for fun times, walks, bikes rides, tex mex and the opportunity to turn me into a 7-time Tour Champion so I can then dump for a rockstar...


it was a match made in heaven....
 

Rolfrae

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whiteboytrash said:
white man 27, infertile, one ball, no career, shaved legs, no money, lives with mother, speaks pigeon French seeks beautiful, attractive, thoughtful home wrecker for fun times, walks, bikes rides, tex mex and the opportunity to turn me into a 7-time Tour Champion so I can then dump for a rockstar...


it was a match made in heaven....
I bet she loved every minute of the excruciating pain she endured whilst popping out the three kids as well. She just used him for his last three surviving sperm. :rolleyes:
 

jhuskey

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whiteboytrash said:
white man 27, infertile, one ball, no career, shaved legs, no money, lives with mother, speaks pigeon French seeks beautiful, attractive, thoughtful home wrecker for fun times, walks, bikes rides, tex mex and the opportunity to turn me into a 7-time Tour Champion so I can then dump for a rockstar...


it was a match made in heaven....


You left out,likes making and wearing plastic jewelery. :D
 

obxbes

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Mar 9, 2005
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And now it's another European team Quickstep. Wich of the 2 eligible french riders do you think will win the tour.


fbircher said:
It's supposed to be about American doping at the TdF - that race where only a tiny handful of Americans have ever competed, and where 99% of the hundreds of (mostly European) cyclists who have competed over the last 15 years were doped to the gills.
 

jhuskey

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obxbes said:
And now it's another European team Quickstep. Wich of the 2 eligible french riders do you think will win the tour.


The one that doesn't fall off his bike. Anyone want to venture a guess that Astana will draw some attention within the next month?
 

Eilert Pilarm

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on the Landis front, and so as not to open a new thread on it, here's another take on the case by the Outdoors columnist for the Anchorage Daily News.
http://www.adn.com/play/recreation/columns/medred/story/8924183p-8824270c.html

the USADA comes in for some major whuppass courtesy of Craig--


Anti-doping show trial is bicyclists' circus



CRAIG MEDRED
OUTDOORS

Published: May 27, 2007
Last Modified: May 27, 2007 at 04:32 AM

Never in decades of interviewing Alaska Olympic athletes have I heard a good word about the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, and after a week of following the saga of Floyd Landis versus the USADA, it's easy to see why.

The USADA went into the Landis affair -- its first-ever public airing of a drug case -- talking about the cold, hard scientific data it would use to show Landis doped in order to win the Tour de France last year.

Then, just to show what kind of scientific data it had, the USADA put three-time tour champ Greg Lemond and professional cyclist Joe Papp on the stand. Lemond claims to nothing about drugs except that every tour winner since him must have used them. Papp is a confessed drug user.

Neither knew much about the science of performance-enhancing drugs. But the USADA didn't call them to testify about science. It called them to the campus of Pepperdine University to smear Landis.

Unfortunately, smearing Landis isn't just about him.

It's about sending a message to every other Olympic-caliber athlete in America:

Don't dare challenge the competence or validity of our drug-testing protocols in public. If you do, watch out.

At least it was nice to see the true nature of the USADA -- the U.S. arm of the World Anti-Doping Association -- exposed. The problem with zealots is, well, they're zealots. Take WADA chief **** Pound, who has proclaimed:

• The only way Landis is innocent is if he was "ambushed by a roving squad of Nazi frogmen and injected against (his) will with the prohibited substances.''

• And my favorite, that Landis' testosterone to epitestosterone (T/E) ratio was so skewed -- this comment to the New York Times mind you -- that "you'd think he'd be violating every virgin within 100 miles. How does he even get on his bicycle?''

Of course, as everyone now knows, Landis' T/E ratio wasn't skewed by megadoses of testosterone pumping through his veins; it was skewed because his epitestosterone level was inexplicably low.

Landis' scientific experts pretty well shot up the work of the French lab that found him positive for testosterone use last year, but the USADA is sticking to its belief in the infallibility of that institution because, well, it's an institution.

The fallibility of science-driven institutions was smeared across the skies of America for all to see when the space shuttle Challenger exploded over Florida. Science is fallible because it is a product of people. People make mistakes.

Sometimes people die because of these mistakes. Sometimes careers are simply ruined. Win or lose at the hearings, Landis will have a black mark next to his name forever.

Papp is a guy for whom you just have to feel sorry. Caught sideways between Landis, the USADA and a U.S. criminal drug investigation, Papp appeared before the Landis hearing to testify he used testosterone patches to speed his recovery after races. Testosterone patches are one of the suspects in the effort to link drugs to Landis' strange urine chemistry during the tour.

No one, mind you, has reported seeing Landis with a patch or any other testosterone product. Nor has anyone connected to a patch or a testosterone dealer, for that matter, been linked to Landis or his team.

So the USADA just put Papp on the stand. He didn't come armed with double-blind studies showing the usefulness of the testosterone patch as a recovery aid for endurance athletes. In fact, one of the world's top authorities on testosterone later seemed to say there are no indications it helps recovery.

No doubt Papp thinks the patch helped. For him, that might even be true. There is a phenomenon called the "placebo affect.''

If you believe it will work; it will work. Papp says it worked for him. OK, great.

But wasn't this whole arbitration hearing supposed to be about science -- not wild, unfounded USADA speculation about how Landis might have doped?

Boys and girls, if you ever decide to cheat, at least be a smarter cheat than this poor sucker. If you're going to cheat by putting chemicals in your body, at least do a little research to find out whether there is any evidence those chemicals will actually help.

Do not listen to that man who tells you that if you grind up Alaska moose nuggets, blend them into a smoothie and drink the mixture you will run faster, jump higher or shoot straighter.

Kasilof biathlete Jay Hakkinen -- the best American athlete no one has ever heard of -- could have used the latter drug. It might have brought him an Olympic medal in Turin; he was that close. But Hakkinen doesn't drug. I don't think any of the Alaska Olympians do, but there's no way to know for certain.

So, I'm just happy none of them has ever been accused of using drugs, because if you are accused of using performance-enhancing drugs these days, there's not much you can do to save yourself -- even if you are innocent.

Should Landis manage to hang onto his tour victory, what will be the enduring memory?

Perhaps the testimony of Lemond, who took the stand to testify not about science but about a blackmail attempt by a supporter of the former Mennonite Landis. An old Landis mountain-biking buddy and sometimes business manager called Lemond to make disgusting statements about how, if Lemond testified, it would be revealed he had been molested as a child.

Lemond saw Landis behind this. He's convinced Landis must have doped to win the tour because Landis is former teammate of Lance Armstrong, and Armstrong's surpassing Lemond's three tour victories must have required drugs.

Lemond is a man with issues.

Landis calls Lemond to ask why the former tour champ keeps making public statements about how he thinks Landis is a drug cheat. Lemond responds by telling Landis to "come clean,'' and then offers up the secret of his molestation as a child.

Over the years, I have been criticized by countless people unhappy with something I've written. Not once have I responded by offering them my deepest, darkest secrets -- as if somehow, in a few short minutes on the telephone, that would form some sort of intimate bond between us.

Landis, of course, told others about this conversation with Lemond. How could you not?

"Geez, you know, I called up Greg Lemond to ask him why he keeps saying bad things about me in the press, and he starts telling me about how he was molested as a child. It was just sort of creepy. I've never had such a strange conversation in my life.''

Landis, however, never made the information public, though many seem to have somehow overlooked that. Columnist Philip Hersch used a statement Landis made about Lemond online -- "If he ever opens his mouth again and the word Floyd comes out, I will tell you all some things you wish you didn't know and unfortunately I will have entered the race to the bottom which is now in progress." -- to argue the shoddy blackmail attempt proves Landis is a drug cheat.

"Now the secret is out about Floyd Landis' principles,'' he wrote in the Chicago Tribune. "We know who he is now. Barry Bonds on a bicycle."

And we can tell how? By the size of Landis' steroid-inflated head?

Just think, if USADA had stuck to science -- as it said it would when the case began -- Lemond wouldn't have been asked to appear in the first place. Nor would Joe Papp.

But let's be real for a moment. This really isn't about science.

This is about a bunch of chemists convinced they've caught a bad guy and, by God, they're going to hang him one way or another.

I don't know whether Floyd Landis is guilty or innocent, but I'm starting to like him.

Anyone willing to subject himself to this public debacle is either innocent or the brashest cheat since Skagway's Soapy Smith, and what Alaskan doesn't love Soapy.
 

wolfix

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I didn't really like Landis or dislike him until the case was put on trial. Now I like him.
And yes, I too believe Lemond has issues. But I thought that before he won the TDF. It's good to see that I'm not the only one to think that.

And can any of the Lemond fans explain as to why Lemond is involved in either the LA insurance case or the Landis case?

Isn't he suppose to go away after a few years of winning the TDF?

Oh yeah....... No matter what the outcome of the Landis trial is, I will trade a World's jersey [not actual race worn] that Lemond had signed for me for a Landis jersey of any kind......
Mennonite madness!!!!!!!!
 
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