From Lance to Landis: Inside the American Doping Controversy at the Tour de France (H



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Wayne666

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helmutRoole2 said:
The problem is, the tests are designed to identify existing drugs, and right now there are designer peds in the peloton that we've never heard of.
Or they're hormones which are inherently hard to detect because they occur naturally in the body as well (e.g. HgH, EPO, testosterone, etc.). The two popular western EPOs (Aranesp and Epogen, I believe are the names) have different effects on the EPO isoforms that are used to detect doping. Who knows what Chinese EPO (if looking on the web you can easily find this source) does? Manzano has talked about Kelme using Russian EPO and blaims it for a Kelme EPO positive at the Tour (Llorente would probably be the rider he's talking about).

I don't think I've heard anything mentioned in terms of testing about the new artificial hemoglobins designed for trauma patients that Manzano says riders are using.
 

whiteboytrash

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Wayne666 said:
Or they're hormones which are inherently hard to detect because they occur naturally in the body as well (e.g. HgH, EPO, testosterone, etc.). The two popular western EPOs (Aranesp and Epogen, I believe are the names) have different effects on the EPO isoforms that are used to detect doping. Who knows what Chinese EPO (if looking on the web you can easily find this source) does? Manzano has talked about Kelme using Russian EPO and blaims it for a Kelme EPO positive at the Tour (Llorente would probably be the rider he's talking about).

I don't think I've heard anything mentioned in terms of testing about the new artificial hemoglobins designed for trauma patients that Manzano says riders are using.
....and who is this hot nurse they used known as the "carrier pigeon" ? bringing the drugs in a thermos to all the riders ? I want to meet her... I want to marry her... I want to father her children…. She’s dangerous….
 

wicklow200

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whiteboytrash said:
Dwain Chambers.... the needle was sent in by an opposing coach who was upset that his athletes had left him to a new coach and with a stockpile of "the clear".
I read somewhere (might have been here?) that Chambers has gone to the bottom....he's with some Dutch American football gridiron outfit and doesn't get to get off the bench most games.

It would be like Barry Bonds joining a village cricket club.
 

whiteboytrash

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wicklow200 said:
I read somewhere (might have been here?) that Chambers has gone to the bottom....he's with some Dutch American football gridiron outfit and doesn't get to get off the bench most games.

It would be like Barry Bonds joining a village cricket club.
This is true but you can hit the big time from this league and you make a lot more from being a waterboy in pro football than you do coming 3rd in sprinting.....
 

wicklow200

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whiteboytrash said:
This is true but you can hit the big time from this league and you make a lot more from being a waterboy in pro football than you do coming 3rd in sprinting.....
I dont know but I always felt that being top 10 in the world any athletics event was quite lucrative. Think of all the individual exposure for sponsors, compared to being just a bit part in a team.
 

wolfix

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The man who interested me in the sport was a immigrant that lived in my town who was a Campagnolo mechanic who worked the big races for a few years. He worked the 60's and early 70's...
He used to tell me how the sport would change as soon as companies like Shimano who was just emerging w/Dura-Ace would corrupt the sport. He said as soon as the equipment makers had influence over the teams that we would see some teams getting stronger due to more money from the sponsors.
Wish he was alive to se what really happened to his sport after the last 2 years.
I wish for the 70's, 80's and 90's where the racing was the main show.
 

helmutRoole2

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I don't know if that will ever happen. Really, drug testing hasn't netted anymore athletes than in years past. It's mostly been the police who have done the most damage.

If federal agents decided to crack down on steroid use in the NBA, NFL and MLB, they'd have field day.

We're seeing sponsors pulling out, but I'll be interested to see what the impact to the view numbers are during the Tour. If the eyeballs are there, the sponsors will come back. Maybe not the same sponsors, but sponsors will come back.
 

Frigo's Luggage

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I think you are correct. The UCI isn't catching most of these guys. Of course they caught Hamilton, Landis, Heras, etc. However, the big damage has been done by the police.

The UCI has an inherant conflict of interest. Scandal is bad for their sport. They don't want bad things to happen to their sport. So, they try hard to avaoid scandal. Which means they don't really try that hard to catch the dopers. I wouldn't be surprised if more teams didn't have a mole at the UCI.

The core problem here is the UCI. The watchdog doesn't want to catch anybody. Therefore, everybody feels as if they can get away with anything.

helmutRoole2 said:
I don't know if that will ever happen. Really, drug testing hasn't netted anymore athletes than in years past. It's mostly been the police who have done the most damage.

If federal agents decided to crack down on steroid use in the NBA, NFL and MLB, they'd have field day.

We're seeing sponsors pulling out, but I'll be interested to see what the impact to the view numbers are during the Tour. If the eyeballs are there, the sponsors will come back. Maybe not the same sponsors, but sponsors will come back.
 

Wayne666

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Frigo's Luggage said:
The UCI isn't catching most of these guys. Of course they caught Hamilton, Landis, Heras, etc.
No, WADA caught them and because the UCI wants to play at the Olympics they have to accept their results. Otherwise you're spot on, the UCI would rather go back to the pre-WADA way and for most intents and purposes a dopers free-for-all. Of course, explaining away why the cops keeping finding cycling related-dope would have created a lot of headaches regardless.
 

Pennypacker

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originally posted by helmutRoole2
Look people, there's nothing athletic about having more red blood cells than someone else... I guess that statement is a knife that cuts both ways.
This is the one statement the (theres no dopage) crowd cringe at. They would love to believe some athletic drama is being played out on the roads of Italy, France or Spain, but the fact is the winner has already been determined. The final chapter is already in the can...it's just the arrangement of the other chapters is all that is really being played out.

I'm not saying hard work and preparation do not matter....because they do. This is being decide by something with it's undercurrents bent toward the medical side more than the athletic side.
 

fbircher

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helmutRoole2 said:
Drugs are ingrained in sports. The only difference between the UCI and the NFL is, the NFL is collectively smart enough to ignore the "problem."
The NFL is lucky to be based in a country where the authorities have not yet increased their anti-doping vigilance to the same level European law enforcement have. The posters on this forum who advocate that cycling go back to the bad old days of looking the way wrt to doping are missing the new reality: most of the major cycling drug busts have come via law enforcement actions (e.g., Festina, Rumsas, Millar, OP, Quick Step, etc.). The UCI has absolutely no power to change this, and we can all expect much more of the same in the future. Law enforcement exposure of dope rings will continue whether cycling fans and the UCI like it or not. In my view, the UCI and race organizers have no option other than trying to clean up the sport now, because we have moved into an era of modern law enforcement that is no longer compatible with the old system of turning a blind eye to doping. Big Brother is getting bigger every day, and not just for doped-up cyclists. In the real world, members of the general public who get caught possessing or taking prescription medications without proper medical authorization go to jail. They also lose their jobs. It would be fundamentally wrong to have a separate set of rules for professional cyclists, and from a plausibility standpoint, the legal authorities would never grant such a distinction.

The question isn't whether dopers will get exposed and the sport will suffer embarassment. The question is whether cycling authorities will recognize this new reality and try to do something about it.
 

Flyer

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Illegal and TUE permitted doping is here to stay, as are the Life Sciences. Gene doping too, followed with yet more blood boosting gear.

Anyway, because sports are such an effective mass-marketing tool for global corporations, the doping issue presents a marketing hickup in the distribution channel to wholesome-baised consumers.

As are continuing felony and drunk driving arrests amongst the MLB, NBA, NFL and college football players. Steroids remains very easy to deny compared with rape, murder, drunk driving and dog fight gambling allegations.

If a doped & stress fractured horse named Barbaro can be canonized by ESPN/Disney, then another Lance Armstrong icon can surely be invented to save cycling. Nike invents TV freaks every week.

Michelle Wie has ignited men's golf and is Tiger's partner in Q ratings.

Kobe Byrant & Lebron James are Nike Gladiators of jailhouse tattoos.

Ivan Basso wore his Nike swoosh proudly before his sister Elisa & husband Eddy Mazoleni were busted in the Lombardia steroid channel marketing case, Operation Athena Gym. (stay tuned for more steroid news from Lombardia)

The marketing-based shows MUST go on--and soon newer, younger heroes will be invented. Biomarkers and hormonal passports will be introduced with fancy anti-doping retoric, but the doping will always remain in sport and in life.

Once we accept that cycling, swimming, track, baseball, football are as clean as WWE or bodybuilding, we will get back to cheering for our personal favorite doping machines and corporations.

A few people may still cling onto false hopes---but that sentiment is no longer relevant, nor remotely plausable for Grand Tour Stage racing.
 

Flyer

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House said:
You have to realize who you are discussing this with. People like Bro Deal have such a hate-on for LA that they will ignore anything (like lack of chain of custody) to be able to claim LA is guilty because it's an obsession of hate for them. If God came down and told everyone that LA was clean these guys would be claiming God doesn't really know. Don't even easte your time with people like him. Poulidor, though will actually attempt to discuss things in an intelligent manner...even if he is misguided.;)
errrtt
 

Flyer

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fbircher said:
The NFL is lucky to be based in a country where the authorities have not yet increased their anti-doping vigilance to the same level European law enforcement have. The posters on this forum who advocate that cycling go back to the bad old days of looking the way wrt to doping are missing the new reality: most of the major cycling drug busts have come via law enforcement actions (e.g., Festina, Rumsas, Millar, OP, Quick Step, etc.). The UCI has absolutely no power to change this, and we can all expect much more of the same in the future. Law enforcement exposure of dope rings will continue whether cycling fans and the UCI like it or not. In my view, the UCI and race organizers have no option other than trying to clean up the sport now, because we have moved into an era of modern law enforcement that is no longer compatible with the old system of turning a blind eye to doping. Big Brother is getting bigger every day, and not just for doped-up cyclists. In the real world, members of the general public who get caught possessing or taking prescription medications without proper medical authorization go to jail. They also lose their jobs. It would be fundamentally wrong to have a separate set of rules for professional cyclists, and from a plausibility standpoint, the legal authorities would never grant such a distinction.

The question isn't whether dopers will get exposed and the sport will suffer embarassment. The question is whether cycling authorities will recognize this new reality and try to do something about it.
eeww
 
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